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Ukraine 20: We’re not bluffing and you can tell we aren’t by how we say we aren’t bluffing…


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The protests in Dagestan are really kicking up a gear. It looks like women are taking to the streets in large numbers to lead the protests, and some speculation they've been inspired by events in Iran.

The head of a Russian draft committee has been shot dead in Ust-Ilimsk in Siberia. Apparently a recruit was brought in and said he wasn't going to fight, and when he was threatened he just shot the guy and everyone else present ran for it.

 

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40 minutes ago, Werthead said:

The protests in Dagestan are really kicking up a gear. It looks like women are taking to the streets in large numbers to lead the protests, and some speculation they've been inspired by events in Iran.

The head of a Russian draft committee has been shot dead in Ust-Ilimsk in Siberia. Apparently a recruit was brought in and said he wasn't going to fight, and when he was threatened he just shot the guy and everyone else present ran for it.

 

He was clearly willing to fight. Just not for the motherland!

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3 hours ago, broken one said:

Ukrainian govt appeals to citizens in occupied territories to stay away from troubles. "The partisans" seem to be professionalists, and that's good. Imho civilian insurgency (on example of WWII Poland) is nothing but suicidal folly.

Depends on the situation. If you're facing genocide, you might as well go down fighting. Sometimes it fails (WWII Poland), sometimes it succeeds (WWII Yugoslavia).

And yes, urban uprisings (as opposed to countryside uprisings) are suicidal, for the simple reason that insurgents have no room to maneuver and no food/fresh water supply.

Edited by Gorn
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11 minutes ago, Gorn said:

 

And yes, urban uprisings (as opposed to countryside uprisings) are suicidal, for the simple reason that insurgents have no room to maneuver and no food/fresh water supply.

Plus it is not 1945 anymore (technology, like drones), it is hard to hide in steppe and as for the genocide thing - Russian goal is rather to assimilate than exterminate.

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13 minutes ago, broken one said:

Plus it is not 1945 anymore (technology, like drones), it is hard to hide in steppe and as for the genocide thing - Russian goal is rather to assimilate than exterminate.

Mass Graves/forced relocations as a new labor class say what???

 

Eta: Russia may not be looking liquidate by the millions like the Nazis were but if you think they're looking to raise the people of Ukraine into a brotherly bond of equals then I'm a Saudi Prince and I need your help accessing my fortune, which due to import/export complications in the Duchy of Westphalia could be freed up by a donation from YOU

Edited by Firebrand Jace
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15 minutes ago, Firebrand Jace said:

Mass Graves/forced relocations as a new labor class say what??

 I have never and nowhere claimed there is no terror nor that politically incorrect are not in danger, far from that. Actually the opposite. Still I claim their objective is to assimilate rather than to exterminate. Mass graves and deportations? Russians did it to Russians, many times. Russian occupation of Ukraine is not nazi occupation of Ukraine, the goal is to turn Ukrainians into Russians, not into soap or fertilizer. Collaborate and it is gonna be OK. They want the population, not empty space.

Edited by broken one
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20 minutes ago, Firebrand Jace said:

Mass Graves/forced relocations as a new labor class say what???

 

Eta: Russia may not be looking liquidate by the millions like the Nazis were but if you think they're looking to raise the people of Ukraine into a brotherly bond of equals then I'm a Saudi Prince and I need your help accessing my fortune, which due to import/export complications in the Duchy of Westphalia could be freed up by a donation from YOU

And who said anything about eqality? Russia is land of inequality, common people have no political rights. Really, I do not think I have to explain obvious things or explain I am not western european marxist/putinist. 

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Does kidnapping people into serfdom count as assimilation? I suppose by a medieval interpretation of the word. Call it preference of definition maybe, but I think of assimilation in the 21st century as a nonviolent process of inducement to economic/social engagement by states looking to supplement their population growth or technical capacities.

I mean when the Romans carted a bunch of Slavs back to Constantinople in 1022(random date) to be slaves I wouldn't quibble that the Slavic folks are gonna be assimilated into the Roman Empire, I guess I just thought that kinda shit was not cool.

The reason I replied as I did is because I feel you are being very dismissive of the fact that a desire to not be turned into an ecoslave by a foreign power is something worth risking everything to avoid. 

As if Russia not going Full Nazi means somehow that ununiformed resistance is somehow misguided or unhelpful.

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Just now, polishgenius said:


Sure, but ethnic cleansing almost never (if ever?) happens without a side order of genocide, because there's always someone who won't accept it. 

Sure but I was taking about specific thing - Ukrainian government appeal to Ukrainians in occupated areas in context of partisan fight, nothing else.

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9 minutes ago, Firebrand Jace said:

Does kidnapping people into serfdom count as assimilation? I suppose by a medieval interpretation of the word. Call it preference of definition maybe, but I think of assimilation in the 21st century as a nonviolent process of inducement to economic/social engagement by states looking to supplement their population growth or technical capacities.

I mean when the Romans carted a bunch of Slavs back to Constantinople in 1022(random date) to be slaves I wouldn't quibble that the Slavic folks are gonna be assimilated into the Roman Empire, I guess I just thought that kinda shit was not cool.

The reason I replied as I did is because I feel you are being very dismissive of the fact that a desire to not be turned into an ecoslave by a foreign power is something worth risking everything to avoid. 

As if Russia not going Full Nazi means somehow that ununiformed resistance is somehow misguided or unhelpful.

You are disputing with your imaginations / feelings, not me. Or maybe with Ukrainian government. Go and ask them why they say what they say. Maybe they know better than you what's proper thing to do, being Easten Europeans they got some historical experience with oppression and partisan warfare. I responded to Gorn, that imo Ukrainians may survive the occupation and its not ,,we gonna die anyway, lets fight,, situation. For me the topic is over.

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5 hours ago, a free shadow said:

 

Ah, yes, someone being persecuted here by people not willing to take a bit of nonsense for a valuable contribution.

Let us not forget that all this started with your willingness to engage with the argument that Russia has every right to invade Ukraine, stating the point of view that the war in Ukraine is more legitimate/historically accepted and based on less ludicrous/specious grounds than war in Iraq. If it is "more legitimate" then it is at least slightly legitimate, to move the needle, isn't it?

Your further contribution is to retroactively delete parts of posts that have been proven to be extra inaccurate, cry that nobody is really reading your arguments despite plenty detailed replies on point, weirdly misread arguments made by others just to make them convenient to respond to, etc.

Your opinion might be close to your heart, but it should get closer to the brain.

Ah, no?

First, I’d suggest actually reading the posts you are trying to critique, the ones which plainly, explicitly and repeatedly state that Russia has no legitimate right to invade Ukraine. That it’s ridiculous claim is surpassed in ridiculousness by the US’s right to invade Iraq is in no way, shape or form saying it is a legitimate one. That would be like me saying that Padraig’s response was arguably better than yours…is that me saying I consider his response persuasive in any way? No, not even slightly. But at least he doesn’t lead with a false tautology followed immediately by accusing me of doing the exact opposite of what I have done. The mole is taller than the inchworm, but neither are tall by our standards. It is a condemnation of the war crime we all know occurred and for which no one has suffered even the slightest penalty, which makes it, in the legal sense, an ongoing event. That another war crime, slightly less ludicrous in premise (but worse in execution) is presently occurring does not change the past.

 

But the past does change the present. Is my point. We all agree, or at least most of us, with the talking heads et al who say China and Taiwan are paying very close attention to what is happening in Ukraine. Why is that? I enjoy watching gymnastics, so please explain to me how and why China will learn from Russia’s invasion while Russia apparently took no notes from the US’s invasionS.  
 

Now, I ignored it the first time, but you’re repeating it again, this bullshit about how I edited out my ‘extra inaccurate’ statements. What we’re these? As pretty much anyone here who knows me can tell you, my edits are to add, not subtract, or correct typos or grammatical errors I notice on reread. I made no claims I later deleted, that’s just bullshit. Please tell me what I’m supposed to have said, I truthfully am interested in what you will say here. 

edit: there, I just edited to change ‘behaviour’ to ‘invasion’ for better symmetry. That’s the kind of editing I do, plus this bit here where I ADD on. 


 

Edited by James Arryn
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Simply put, China and Russia care about the US reaction to their aggression because the us has a big ass military that they use around the world. The US does not care that much about the reaction of Russia because russia does not. The two are not equivalent except for people who are looking for straws to grasp. Russian media would use (and in fact are using) absolute lies to justify their invasion. They aren't using the Iraq war.

It is a ridiculous set of convoluted comparisons that would make osravan blush. 

I hope that not all Canadians are like this or I'm going to have to seriously rethink my vacation to the Canada.

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44 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

Please stop saying "the Ukraine."

You wouldn't say, "I'm going on vacation to the France."

Well, first, my apologies, been discussing geopolitics for so long things become unconscious. I edited out the the. But, to your second point, not true. People say ‘the’ before the names of many countries, nations, sovereign states…people often say the Netherlands, the United a kingdom, the United States, etc. Secondly a huge number of countries have names which translate to English beginning with ‘the’, including mine own, Canada, which means ‘the village’. Algeria means ‘the islands’. Morocco means ‘the far west’. Etc. 
 

The point is, there is nothing inherently wrong or indicative of lower status by the inclusion of ‘the’, excepting where, as in Ukraine, the people have expressed an association with that usage and reject it. That’s why I apologize. Truth is I’ll do it again, because I write pretty stream of consciousness and then edit corrections I notice after posting…bad habit, just owning up…but I regret it and will try hard not to. 

Edited by James Arryn
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James - I think the part I'm not getting is whether you're making a point with respect to what should be done now? I agree the Iraq war was wrong, justified by a lie, supported by a larger percentage of all the allied nations than I'd like, and that it probably contributes to Russia feeling it could get away with this. I'm just confused where the point goes from there.

We can't go back in time to fix that injustice, to bring back all the Iraqis that lost their lives directly and indirectly, we can't undo whatever influence it had on Russia deciding to do this.

None of that changes the situation I said above with respect to how Russia is now behaving, nor does it change the moral (imo) imperative to support Ukraine's attempts to defend itself as long as it continues to want to do that. Or the self interest imperative for the modern world to say "no, we do not annex our neighbors anymore".

If your point is just about the blood on the hands of the west, but that it doesn't change what should be done now then I think that's the disconnect. People are interpreting what you're saying as a call to change our current response to the situation. I certainly don't think "we should not repeat the mistake of invading Iraq" is a controversial take, so if it's just that kind of thing then I agree.

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2 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

The point is, there is nothing inherently wrong or indicative of lower status by the inclusion of ‘the’, excepting where, as in Ukraine, the people have expressed an association with that usage and reject it. That’s why I apologize. 

I had a Ukrainian girlfriend once. She fucking hated people doing that. That's why I brought it up. 

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