[SPOILERS] Rings of Power: Ah, Mithril, that's the good stuff!

[Calibandar]

6 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

In the movie Elrond stays behind with Arwen though, doesn’t he? Maybe I’ve just forgotten, but I think she was an only child in the movies too.

I think her choosing mortality would be so that she and Aragorn could grow old together and not end up like Viserys and Alicent 

No, Elrond sets sail for Valinor together with Galadriel, Cirdan, Gandalf.

Arwen remains and goes to Cerin Amroth ( woodland hill) to die after Aragorn has lived out his years.

[Lord Varys]

10 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

In the movie Elrond stays behind with Arwen though, doesn’t he? Maybe I’ve just forgotten, but I think she was an only child in the movies too.

I think her choosing mortality would be so that she and Aragorn could grow old together and not end up like Viserys and Alicent 

There is a scene in the movies where Elrond insidiuously tells Arwen about how Aragorn will grow old and die and she is going to remain there forever alone and then he wants to drag her to Valinor with him ... where he wants to go in the middle of the war for no reason.

That all sucks pretty hard. The movie sends the message that Arwen's deep love for Aragorn somehow takes her Elven immortality from her and that way they can be together.

Also nonsense insofar as Tolkien's works are concerned. The issue is a metaphysical one - Elves and Men can love each other easily enough, although they have very different temperaments and life/aging cycles (and, presumably, sex drives), but they cannot be together beyond death. Men move on, their souls live the created world to go beyond, presumably to the Creator, while Elves bound body and soul to the created world and will remain there until its end (they hope they won't be destroyed with it but that's not certain). Over time their bodies will be consumed by their spirits, turning them into ghosts - that's how it is in our time, presumably, but during the books they clearly haven't reached that stage yet.

Death is god's gift to humanity, a gift whose meaning has been distorted and destroyed by Morgoth and Sauron and their minions, which is why Men now fear death and want to live forever. The Númenóreans got very close to the origional pre-Fall Man in the sense that they regained their ability to die of their own free will when they felt that it was time. If they did this, like Aragorn eventually did, they never actually grew physically old.

[Darryk]

7 hours ago, Raja said:

I'm all for people having their takes on this show, but your posts really come across as someone who has completely erased from your mind all sorts of similar stuff & situations that happened in the Jackson movies.

It's easier to forgive stuff when you're invested in the characters and story, which the PJ films managed to do with great performances and dialogue and which this show is failing to do for me.

[Zorral]

1 minute ago, Darryk said:

It's easier to forgive stuff when you're invested in the characters and story, which the PJ films managed to do with great performances and dialogue and which this show is failing to do for me.

And you know, others' experience is quite opposite of yours, but expressed with neither malice nor bitterness. 

[Veltigar]

3 hours ago, Isis said:

A bold claim! The show does not have the rights to The Sil, so it's not like we were ever going to see Feanor, Beren and Luthien, Turin, Glaurung etc etc., in this series, so you should be fine.

Obviously the only reason I have to reread the Silmarillion at this particular moment instead of spending my precious reading time on any of the many books that I have yet to read for a first time, is to immerse myself into the events that inspired this show.

They might not have the rights to the entirety of the materials (pretty fortunate probably), but what material they do have access to in the appendices will show some marked similarities with what is in the Silmarillion. 

[The Bard of Banefort]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There is a scene in the movies where Elrond insidiuously tells Arwen about how Aragorn will grow old and die and she is going to remain there forever alone and then he wants to drag her to Valinor with him ... where he wants to go in the middle of the war for no reason.

That all sucks pretty hard. The movie sends the message that Arwen's deep love for Aragorn somehow takes her Elven immortality from her and that way they can be together.

Also nonsense insofar as Tolkien's works are concerned. The issue is a metaphysical one - Elves and Men can love each other easily enough, although they have very different temperaments and life/aging cycles (and, presumably, sex drives), but they cannot be together beyond death. Men move on, their souls live the created world to go beyond, presumably to the Creator, while Elves bound body and soul to the created world and will remain there until its end (they hope they won't be destroyed with it but that's not certain). Over time their bodies will be consumed by their spirits, turning them into ghosts - that's how it is in our time, presumably, but during the books they clearly haven't reached that stage yet.

Death is god's gift to humanity, a gift whose meaning has been distorted and destroyed by Morgoth and Sauron and their minions, which is why Men now fear death and want to live forever. The Númenóreans got very close to the origional pre-Fall Man in the sense that they regained their ability to die of their own free will when they felt that it was time. If they did this, like Aragorn eventually did, they never actually grew physically old.

Do men and elves have separate afterlives then? That seems odd, given Tolkien’s religiosity.

[Lord Varys]

4 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Do men and elves have separate afterlives then? That seems odd, given Tolkien’s religiosity.

Elves are immortal. They don't pass on even if they are slain. Instead, they either become ghosts or their bodies are restored to them in West.

[The Bard of Banefort]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Elves are immortal. They don't pass on even if they are slain. Instead, they either become ghosts or their bodies are restored to them in West.

I always thought they were sailing away to the afterlife. It seems weird that they’d be segregated from humans even after leaving this plane. Tolkien’s so famously Christian, and the idea that Aragorn, Arwen, and Elrond wouldn’t all end up in the same afterlife feels antithetical to that.

[Calibandar]

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There is a scene in the movies where Elrond insidiuously tells Arwen about how Aragorn will grow old and die and she is going to remain there forever alone and then he wants to drag her to Valinor with him ... where he wants to go in the middle of the war for no reason.

That all sucks pretty hard. The movie sends the message that Arwen's deep love for Aragorn somehow takes her Elven immortality from her and that way they can be together.

 

As I recall there is also a reverse bullshit invented motive for Aragorn, where he is told Arwen's life is literally tied to the One Ring and the defeat of Sauron and the fate of Middle Earth. That bothered me at the time the films came out.

It was typical Jackson; even if the stakes were already high, he always felt the need " to up the ante"  with inventions. And of course the dreaded " character arcs" that Aragorn and Gandalf both suffered from compared to the book versions.

[The Bard of Banefort]

I was looking up the actors from this show, and there were some big surprises:

1. Bronwyn is 42 years old IRL. I hope I look that good when I’m 42, even though I know I won’t lol.

2. Lots of Welsh actors 

3. Isildur is of Russian/Armenian descent (not sure where he grew up)

4. At 29, Elrond is one of the youngest adult actors (which kind of works with his character still being unwed and without children)

5. Here’s the whopper: Gil-galad is a stand-up comic from Georgia (USA) who graduated from Juilliard and starred in the Broadway rendition of Bloody Bloody Andrew Jackson. I’ll say this for Juilliard: they have churned out genuine talent for generations now (Elrond is also an alum). 

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, Calibandar said:

As I recall there is also a reverse bullshit invented motive for Aragorn, where he is told Arwen's life is literally tied to the One Ring and the defeat of Sauron and the fate of Middle Earth. That bothered me at the time the films came out.

Yes, the whole thing makes pretty much no sense at all in the movies.

They should have dropped the Elven racism entirely, making Elrond the character he actually is (which he is pretty much outside the scenes where he bitches about Men or wants to manipulate his daughter).

This show only continues this racist angle. It is pretty disgusting to see Gil-galad's court apparently keeping Elrond at arm's length because he is Half-Elven - Elrond, whose father is the greatest hero of Elvendome and Mankind both. Also, the silly thing of having the Elves act as an occupying force 'guarding people' rather than, you know, trying to educate them or lead them away from the Shadow. Also not sure what you should take away from a bunch of people half of which still secretly worship the Dark Lord(s) and wait for his return.

Or have Galadriel give such a horrible rant about the complete destruction of the Orcs. If she meets an Orc she can talk to in such a civilized manner then that in and of itself should give her pause. She shouldn't insist on sadistic genocide. At the same time ... the show depicting the Orcs as wanton murderers who really have no intention to live side by side with Men who once stood by their absent Dark Lord also doesn't really reflect well on them.

What do they want to tell us there? That everybody sucks? That all things are evil? That is not what this story should be about.

[The Marquis de Leech]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Yes, the whole thing makes pretty much no sense at all in the movies.

They should have dropped the Elven racism entirely, making Elrond the character he actually is (which he is pretty much outside the scenes where he bitches about Men or wants to manipulate his daughter).

This show only continues this racist angle. It is pretty disgusting to see Gil-galad's court apparently keeping Elrond at arm's length because he is Half-Elven - Elrond, whose father is the greatest hero of Elvendome and Mankind both. Also, the silly thing of having the Elves act as an occupying force 'guarding people' rather than, you know, trying to educate them or lead them away from the Shadow. Also not sure what you should take away from a bunch of people half of which still secretly worship the Dark Lord(s) and wait for his return.

Or have Galadriel give such a horrible rant about the complete destruction of the Orcs. If she meets an Orc she can talk to in such a civilized manner then that in and of itself should give her pause. She shouldn't insist on sadistic genocide. At the same time ... the show depicting the Orcs as wanton murderers who really have no intention to live side by side with Men who once stood by their absent Dark Lord also doesn't really reflect well on them.

What do they want to tell us there? That everybody sucks? That all things are evil? That is not what this story should be about.

Problem is, the notion of an occupying force trying to educate the locals "for their own good" carries with it heavily imperialist overtones. I think the show actually manages to thread that needle pretty well here. The Elves aren't brutal, they try to be fair, and their different views of time come into play, but they're still occupiers. Which means the locals will inherently look kindly on the enemies of said occupiers.

In the case of Galadriel, she's actually being set up to be the rhetorical punching-bag for Adar. Adar's going full Shylock from The Merchant of Venice here, and it is glorious. Galadriel, unfortunately... I am willing to write this off as her losing her temper, and being unable to engage in more sophisticated bullying, rather than her channeling Tywin Lannister, but for a flagship protagonist, she's highly unlikable. I am currently filing all this as "this is a AU where Galadriel is a daughter of Feanor crackfic", but I never thought I'd see her basically become Celegorm with boobs.

[LynnS]

My burning question is about Coldhan.... er.. Adar.  How is he the Father of all those Igors... er... Orcs?  Pardon me ... Uruks.  How do you reckon?

[fionwe1987]

17 minutes ago, LynnS said:

My burning question is about Coldhan.... er.. Adar.  How is he the Father of all those Igors... er... Orcs?  Pardon me ... Uruks.  How do you reckon?

As an Elf that was actually tortured/magicked by Morgoth into becoming Uruk, he'd have been of the progenitor line. Subsequent Orcs were all progeny of the originally corrupted ones, though I'm not sure if any of the Noldor who got captured could have been turned. I believe it is implied that by then, Morgoth didn't have the power to make fresh Orcs, because I can't imagine he wouldn't have modified them to be able to handle sunshine, if he was able.

 

I will say Tolkien's confusion on this issue always baffled me. The Orcs were corrupted by Morgoth, but didn't Eru say that all of Morgoth's attempts for hijacking the music of the Ainur were ultimately part of his theme anyway? 

And unlike Dwarves, Orcs never would have come to be of Morgoth was working alone. So he took what Eru made and corrupted it. Isn't it bizarre to say that is irreparable? He corrupted Men, too, in other ways, yet no one thinks they are no longer Children of Iluvatar. 

I know Tolkien had some ideas of Orcs not having souls, but I haven't read HoME, so I wouldn't know for sure, but that would flat out be ignored by the show, then, and I'm just fine with that. 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, fionwe1987 said:

As an Elf that was actually tortured/magicked by Morgoth into becoming Uruk, he'd have been of the progenitor line. Subsequent Orcs were all progeny of the originally corrupted ones, though I'm not sure if any of the Noldor who got captured could have been turned. I believe it is implied that by then, Morgoth didn't have the power to make fresh Orcs, because I can't imagine he wouldn't have modified them to be able to handle sunshine, if he was able.

I'm assuming there is some kind blood magic involved and Adar was a donor.  So they are his progeny in that sense.  I'm assuming that Sauron used men to create his second generation of orcs and this is why Adar asks Halbrand if he hurt some woman that Halbrand loved.

[LynnS]

13 hours ago, Calibandar said:

Its interesting that he could be sent by Yavanna specifically, but of course can also be sent by the Valar in general.

He does control the elements but of course we have yet to see if that is specifically because he has control over elements or because he is an Istar and has more abilities than that.

The meteor crater looking like the Eye of Sauron was a red herring it seems because as with Halbrand, they are doing everything they can to mislead the audience and keep the identity a secret.

Yes, I do think the meteor crater looking like the Eye of Sauron is a misdirect.  The second misdirect is that the fire does not burn Nori.  A comparison was made to the torches in Sauron's lair atop the mountain unable to give any heat (overpowered by the evil of the place).  But I think this is an inversion or corruption of the blessed fire (mana ure).

I think it's curious that Arondir mentions one of the Valar was responsible for growing things. So perhaps the showrunners are drpping a hint about Meteor Man. It's been a while since I read the Silmarillion but looking through some of the online wikis; the Valar were sent to Middle Earth to perform certain tasks.  One of which was the creation of Numenor and I think they also destroy it.  So although the Valar are never seen by elves and men; the Harfoots might be the exception in this adaptation. 

I know the Blue Wizards are contemporary with the Second Age but the Show runners don't have the rights.   Perhaps this is a way around it.  The Valar are described as forces of nature and that certainly seems to be manifesting in Meteor Man.  His obsession with the constellations is curious.  One of the Valar is responsible for the creation of the constellations.  So I wonder if there is another of Meteor Man's kind on Middle Earth.  Someone he must find.

Yes, Halbrand is someone to keep an eye on.  He's very sketchy.  I'm not sure if he is Sauron and was in fact dispatched by Adar, as he claims; and if this is why he asks Adar if he recognizes him (in his new form).  If so, he wasn't lying to Galadrial when he said he took the king's token off a dead man.  Someone he is now impersonating.

Or alternately, he is the king but someone who will end up one of the nine mortal men doomed to die.

The last episode was quite something.  The charge of the Numenorians woke me right up.  The ending was explosive to say the least!  I am curious as hell about Meteor man and Nori is turning out to be one of my favorite characters.   I'm not seeing enough of the Harfoots for my satisfaction.

And the elves are quite patronizing and paternalistic.  Is it any wonder the dwarves don't like them.  

 

[mormont]

6 hours ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

In the case of Galadriel, she's actually being set up to be the rhetorical punching-bag for Adar. Adar's going full Shylock from The Merchant of Venice here, and it is glorious. Galadriel, unfortunately... I am willing to write this off as her losing her temper, and being unable to engage in more sophisticated bullying, rather than her channeling Tywin Lannister, but for a flagship protagonist, she's highly unlikable.

I've said before, Galadriel is the main reason I'm watching.

The fact that she has this speech doesn't mean that the writers think she's correct - in fact, as you note, the impression is that she's wrong, she's speaking from anger and it has led her into moral danger. It's worth noting also that there's no indication that her views here wouldn't be shared by most Elves, and indeed probably Dwarves and Men. But it's one that I'm certain the series will have her row back from, acknowledging the importance of mercy and understanding over anger. That's her arc in this series: she just hasn't reached the end of it.

(If Halbrand is Sauron, by the way, I would expect that to have played a role: the more time Galadriel spends with him, the more she falls to the Dark Side (that's this series, right? ;)). Halbrand's remarks about his feelings fighting alongside Galadriel, and her sharing of these feelings, might perhaps indicate this pollution rather than being a romantic indicator.)

[GallowKnight]

6 hours ago, LynnS said:

My burning question is about Coldhan.... er.. Adar.  How is he the Father of all those Igors... er... Orcs?  Pardon me ... Uruks.  How do you reckon?

The seed is strong.

[GrimTuesday]

1 hour ago, mormont said:

I've said before, Galadriel is the main reason I'm watching.

The fact that she has this speech doesn't mean that the writers think she's correct - in fact, as you note, the impression is that she's wrong, she's speaking from anger and it has led her into moral danger. It's worth noting also that there's no indication that her views here wouldn't be shared by most Elves, and indeed probably Dwarves and Men. But it's one that I'm certain the series will have her row back from, acknowledging the importance of mercy and understanding over anger. That's her arc in this series: she just hasn't reached the end of it.

(If Halbrand is Sauron, by the way, I would expect that to have played a role: the more time Galadriel spends with him, the more she falls to the Dark Side (that's this series, right? ;)). Halbrand's remarks about his feelings fighting alongside Galadriel, and her sharing of these feelings, might perhaps indicate this pollution rather than being a romantic indicator.)

Reading this reminded of what Finrod said to Galadriel in the opening scene and then was revealed a couple of episodes later regarding know what is truly good, and what is illusion,

“Sometimes we cannot know until we have touched the darkness."

I'm firmly in the Halbrand is Sauron camp, and have been from the off, and I think this idea is meant to reflect, or forshadow this relationship with Halbrand/Sauron and the outcome is what sets her on the path to the being we meet in The Lord of The Rings.

I think that what frustrates me about this show is there is the bones of a compelling story there, but they never quite hit the right notes to make it sing.

[Corvinus85]

Could Sauron/Halbrand suffer from amnesia like The Stranger?

If Adar "splitting him open" was some sort of attack that severely weakened Sauron on a spirit level but he just had enough in him to take human shape. This would explain why he ends up on a ship in the middle of nowhere. He is driven by feelings he can't quite explain, but doesn't realize who he is.

He sees Adar again, and his memory slowly starts to return, and believes that Adar should know him.