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The Road to Pentos


Aebram

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In a recent thread about the Faceless Men, Evolett raised this interesting question:

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The Tattered Prince wants Pentos as a reward for assisting Quentyn. When that fails, Ser Barristan promises Pentos if the Prince helps him release the Meereenese hostages. A bold move. How does Barristan think to conquer Pentos?

"Bold," indeed.  Was that a deliberate reference to Ser Barristan's nickname?  This is the man who entered a tourney at the age of ten, and later single-handedly rescued King Aerys from captivity at Duskendale.  So if anyone can accomplish such a feat, it would be him.

And there are a number of factors that make this feasible, depending on "Tatters's" actual goal.  The text is not specific, but presumably he wants to rule the city, not burn it to the ground or sack it. 

Pentos is very lightly defended.  As a result of its treaty with Braavos, it has no standing army except for its city watch.  It has only 20 warships, and is forbidden from hiring sellswords.  AWOIAF states that "... the Pentoshi are now notably less belligerent than the people of Tyrosh, Myr, and Lys.  Despite its massive walls, Pentos is oft seen as the most vulnerable of the Free Cities."  From a brief look at that book and the wiki, it seems likely that there are no living Pentoshi who have actually fought in a war, except for Tatters himself and any others who left the city to join sellsword companies.

Currently, the title of Prince is largely symbolic, and most of the actual power is in the hands of the ruling elite, referred to in several books as the "forty families."  That's not a very large number.  If, as in most cities, the wealthy families tend to be clustered in more desirable neighborhoods, that makes it relatively easy to capture many of them with a small force. 

My guess is that Tatters wants to rule for real; he wants to make the title of Prince have actual power again.  If he and Barristan can capture, kill, bribe, or recruit a sufficient number of the forty families, the rest will probably bend the knee without a fight, in return for an Aegon-esque promise that they can keep much of their wealth and power.

... Unless the Braavosi decide to get involved ...

What say you?

    Your humble scribe,

    --Aebram of Underhedge

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Even if he restores real power to the title of Prince, wouldn't the sacrificial nature of the job still remain? It seems to be a really old custom, I don't know how easy it would be to get rid of, and I'm sure Tatters wouldn't have been the first person to try (if that's what he plans on doing) because other people wouldn't have wanted to be sacrificed either.

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If that was that easy, Tatters would have done it with his sellswords. He will need Dany's armies. On her way to Westeros or after. A promise she may be reluctant to honor. Even if it's for her dear Daario. IMO, Barristan overreach, there. It would disturb the alliances between the cities and trigger another large war. Unless Dany also expects to conquer Essos?

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Dany may be able to get out of the alliance, if she politics. 

The king was arrested. A coup launched by a disgruntled knight resulted in deaths and war. Dany may have to put her foot down and declare Barris tenure as illegitimate, thusly saving face in Essos, and more importantly in Magister Illyrios Pentos.

Ok, cool. She can weasel. But this alliance didn't just involve Meereen and the Windblown but also Sunspear. 

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"The rest you'll have in Dorne," Quentyn insisted. "My father is a man of honor. If I put my seal to an agreement, he will fulfill its terms. You have my word on that."

I don't see anyway Doran can weasel his way out of this without losing face

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Barristan definitely overstepped here. Not only did he essentially committed Dany to war against a third party, he accepted a deal Dany specifically rejected.

She might come around if she learns that Illyrio is backing Aegon and particularly if she learns that she was a means to support his claim all along. 

27 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I don't see anyway Doran can weasel his way out of this without losing face

"My son was lead astray by those treacherous Yronwoods who have long contested my House's primacy over Dorne, even after I entrusted with my son in an effort of reconciliation". Besides the pact was about delivering Quentyn with dragons to Dorne. 

I do think that Quentyn's mission was planned with plausible deniability in mind. No member, beside Quentyn, had any direct link to house Martell. 

Let's not forget he is ostensibly already allied to the Lannisters and has even agreed to join their houses by marriage. 

And will most likely have a foot in yet another camp with Arianne. 

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36 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

Besides the pact was about delivering Quentyn with dragons to Dorne. 

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"I have need of those swords. Dorne will hire you.”

The Tattered Prince glanced at Pretty Meris. “He does not lack for gall, this Frog. Must I remind him? My dear prince, the last contract we signed you used to wipe your pretty pink bottom.”

“I will double whatever the Yunkishmen are paying you.”

“And pay in gold upon the signing of our contract, yes?”

“I will pay you part when we reach Volantis, the rest when I am back in Sunspear. We brought gold with us when we set sail, but it would have been hard to conceal once we joined the company, so we gave it over to the banks. I can show you papers.”

“Ah. Papers. But we will be paid double.”

“Twice as many papers,” said Pretty Meris.

“The rest you’ll have in Dorne,” Quentyn insisted. “My father is a man of honor. If I put my seal to an agreement, he will fulfill its terms. You have my word on that.”

Princely seals and all that. Doran has no tangible way of getting out of this.

The pact wasn't about personal dragons, just that Dany needs to be brought onto their side. Well if there's an alliance against Pentos then I suppose Frog succeeded 

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46 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Princely seals and all that. Doran has no tangible way of getting out of this.

The pact wasn't about personal dragons, just that Dany needs to be brought onto their side. Well if there's an alliance against Pentos then I suppose Frog succeeded 

Following that line you quoted, Tatters inquires the reason he wants them hired, is this one:

“I need you to help me steal a dragon.”

There is also this:

“My father is a man of honor. If I put my seal to an agreement, he will fulfill its terms. You have my word on that.”

I'm pretty sure Quentyn believes it. But though he is a prince, he is not the Prince of Dorne. I don't recall him acknowledged publicly as the heir apparent. He also expects Doran to become accessory to treason against Dany. 

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1 hour ago, The Sleeper said:

I'm pretty sure Quentyn believes it. But though he is a prince, he is not the Prince of Dorne. I don't recall him acknowledged publicly as the heir apparent.

I think he believed it because that's what it is. The frog was obviously given lots of leeway to speak on his father's behalf because as things stand Viserys is in no condition to get married. Then two princes seals were stamped with two Dornish knights as witnesses. Everything eventually gets cosigned by the hand of the queen. There's so much legal mumbo jumbo involved here I don't see anyway Sunspear can go back on their word 

1 hour ago, The Sleeper said:

He also expects Doran to become accessory to treason against Dany. 

What treason, the dragons? Dany was all like "the dragon has three heads" she basically invited him to take one. (One, not two lol) Anyway, he's dead now and his accomplices have received their chance for pardons 

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8 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I think he believed it because that's what it is. The frog was obviously given lots of leeway to speak on his father's behalf because as things stand Viserys is in no condition to get married. Then two princes seals were stamped with two Dornish knights as witnesses. Everything eventually gets cosigned by the hand of the queen. There's so much legal mumbo jumbo involved here I don't see anyway Sunspear can go back on their word 

What treason, the dragons? Dany was all like "the dragon has three heads" she basically invited him to take one. (One, not two lol) Anyway, he's dead now and his accomplices have received their chance for pardons 

Neither Quentyn, nor Tatters is actually a prince in terms of ruling over something. And what queen signed it?

I am also sure that Dany did not mean to invite Quentyn to infiltrate her place and killed her guards in the dead of night, nor take her dragons to Dorne without her permission. Since Quentyn and Co declared themselves Dany's subjects, that makes what they did treason. 

 

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22 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

Neither Quentyn, nor Tatters is actually a prince in terms of ruling over something.

But their title still dignifies honor and respect. Besides, the two witnesses knights also had credence to the legality 

22 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

And what queen signed it?

Hand of the queen cosigned it

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"I mean to send them back to the Tattered Prince. And you with them. You will be two amongst thousands. Your presence in the Yunkish camps should pass unnoticed. I want you to deliver a message to the Tattered Prince. Tell him that I sent you, that I speak with the queen's voice. Tell him that we'll pay his price if he delivers us our hostages, unharmed and whole."

And it is possible for Dany to sack Barri and call him an old kook or something but from Sunspears view there's very little leeway

22 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

I am also sure that Dany did not mean to invite Quentyn to infiltrate her place and killed her guards in the dead of night, nor take her dragons to Dorne without her permission.

Probably not. But she showed him the dragons and talked to him about his Targaryen ancestry. There was something going on there I think 

22 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

Since Quentyn and Co declared themselves Dany's subjects, that makes what they did treason

But Quentyns dead and co will be responsible for the safety of a top commander, her blood of her blood and her salt husband. If successful they'll be nothing short of heroes in the eyes of Dany 

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32 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

But their title still dignifies honor and respect. Besides, the two witnesses knights also had credence to the legality 

Hand of the queen cosigned it

And it is possible for Dany to sack Barri and call him an old kook or something but from Sunspears view there's very little leeway

Probably not. But she showed him the dragons and talked to him about his Targaryen ancestry. There was something going on there I think 

But Quentyns dead and co will be responsible for the safety of a top commander, her blood of her blood and her salt husband. If successful they'll be nothing short of heroes in the eyes of Dany 

Archibald's and Gerris's signature confirm that it was Quentyn who signed it, but since the latter had no authority and no way to prove that he was acting on Doran's behalf, this binds Quentyn. Doran is not bound by this in any way shape or form.

Barristan's deal with Tatters is a separate issue entirely. It involves one different party and a different objective. Gerris and Yronwoods are simply the messengers and they are forced into it under penalty of death. For treason. 

Dany, showing Quentyn the dragons was her way of keeping the prospect of alliance open since her hand wasn't available and she did need more dragonriders. And though she didn't think so, Quentyn might have had a shot at it, if he attempted to ride Visetion under more controlled circumstances. Success would have forced her hand into an alliance or forced her to fight one of her own dragons. That would have pissed her off. 

Dany did not allow her feelings for Daario to affect major policy issues, before. She is unlikely to do it, later. If she takes Pentos it will be for different issues, as stated before. Barristan and the Dornish knights would still face consequences, though in this case they may not be irrevocable ones. Other reasons could spare them. In the case of the knights, she might wish further deterioration in the relationship with Dorne. In Barristan's case, punishing when he was acting in her name would undermine her own authority. 

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3 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

Archibald's and Gerris's signature confirm that it was Quentyn who signed it, but since the latter had no authority and no way to prove that he was acting on Doran's behalf, this binds Quentyn. Doran is not bound by this in any way shape or form.

Then why would his son say that his father would honor the seal? The man's a prince and a knight, I think his oath has to be respected in at least some shape or form 

3 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

Barristan's deal with Tatters is a separate issue entirely. It involves one different party and a different objective. Gerris and Yronwoods are simply the messengers and they are forced into it under penalty of death. For treason. 

Same deal. It's all about Pentos.

3 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

Dany did not allow her feelings for Daario to affect major policy issues, before. She is unlikely to do it, later. If she takes Pentos it will be for different issues, as stated before

What other issue besides her "voices" word? Oh Aegon? Yea maybe but probably not. Even if Illyrio had other reasons for Danys success he's still responsible for them 

And it's not just Daario, it's also her blood of her blood (and a eunuch) these are extremely valuable hostages that will dramatically impact Danys feelings 

3 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

In the case of the knights, she might wish further deterioration in the relationship with Dorne.

Why would she want that?

3 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

In Barristan's case, punishing when he was acting in her name would undermine her own authority. 

I think your right, I think the triple alliance will lead to a bloody war in Pentos which wouldn't help Doran at all and he'll probably wish he could just leave that war and publicly back Aegon but he can't and it'll all be rather amusing 

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12 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Then why would his son say that his father would honor the seal? The man's a prince and a knight, I think his oath has to be respected in at least some shape or form. 

He is making an oath about things he has no control over. Probably because Doran led him to believe so. However he has no official capacity of his own. You should note that when Davos went to negotiate on Stannis behalf he had his own seal with him as his Hand as well as Stannis's seal. 

 

18 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Same deal. It's all about Pentos.

That is the price of the deal. 

 

19 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

What other issue besides her "voices" word? Oh Aegon? Yea maybe but probably not. Even if Illyrio had other reasons for Danys success he's still responsible for them 

More than likely her and Aegon will be enemies. Illyrio will be backing Aegon which makes him an enemy too. 

 

22 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Why would she want that?

My bad, I forgot a "not" there. She would not want relations with Dorne to further deteriorate. 

 

25 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I think your right, I think the triple alliance will lead to a bloody war in Pentos which wouldn't help Doran at all and he'll probably wish he could just leave that war and publicly back Aegon but he can't and it'll all be rather amusing 

I think Doran will be locked in backing Aegon and Dany in addition to her current will also have the Dothraki and the Volantene slaves. I think it will be a one-sided affair. 

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22 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

He is making an oath about things he has no control over. Probably because Doran led him to believe so. However he has no official capacity of his own. You should note that when Davos went to negotiate on Stannis behalf he had his own seal with him as his Hand as well as Stannis's seal.

But Quentyn has his seal and if his father led him to believe he'd honor it then I'm sure sure he will 

26 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

That is the price of the deal. 

Right, Doran will expect Danys assistance in taking Pentos.

27 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

More than likely her and Aegon will be enemies. Illyrio will be backing Aegon which makes him an enemy too. 

Probably later but maybe not at first. I don't see how Illyrio can publicly back any Westerosi as he's not there and has no army

28 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

My bad, I forgot a "not" there. She would not want relations with Dorne to further deteriorate. 

Of course not, more of the reason to honor his sons last vow.

29 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

I think Doran will be locked in backing Aegon and Dany in addition to her current will also have the Dothraki and the Volantene slaves. I think it will be a one-sided affair. 

He may back Aegon over Dany for the throne but he'll back Dany for Pentos. I agree that Young Griff's not long for this world 

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