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"The Gods are not done with me"


The Sleeper
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12 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

He deserves no such thing. He’s a kinslayer. Remember the Miller’s wife and her sons that Theon ordered to be killed? One of them was probably his son.

Theon has done some awful things, but I don't think endless suffering is a just punishment, and also it gives Theon no chance to repent his actions by doing good. Even the worst criminals in Westeros aren't forced to suffer endlessly, going by how other criminals of his magnitude are treated Theon should either be executed or have to join the Watch. I think having someone's mind violated repeatedly as a punishment crosses the line.

P.S. Do you think Stannis is cursed for kinslaying? Also does kinslaying confer additional punishment legally or is it just social stigma/supposed divine punishment?

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4 hours ago, The Gizzard of Oz said:

Over analysis of a line.  Theon thinks his suffering is not yet over.  Hes saying his punishment isn't done yet.  

The supposition is not based on the line. It is based on what we have been shown about skinchanging people and how it pertains to Theon's state of mind and overall condition. The line was meant to cap it all off as foreshadowing for this potential development.

Now that you mentioned it though, this is not a single line. The godswood is very prominent in Theon's arc and not just as a location. Theon contemplates the gods and their disposition towards him and the various events both him and they witnessed, ruminates on his fate, prays and ends up communing with Bran. This the site where his function in the events of Winterfell begins, when he is forced to bare false witness to Jeyne's marriage to Ramsay and where it ends with the spearwives forcing him to assist with Jeyne's rescue and eventually carrying out himself. While Theon is our eyes to the events there, you could say that his arc in Winterfell, revolves around the godswood. To top it all off, there is the visit to the crypts where the missing swords, associating Bran and Rickon with the restless spirits of the North, which Theon feels haunted by. Coming on top of all that, this line becomes quite poignant and relevant. 

Edited by The Sleeper
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On 9/27/2022 at 10:42 AM, Craving Peaches said:

Theon has done some awful things, but I don't think endless suffering is a just punishment, and also it gives Theon no chance to repent his actions by doing good. Even the worst criminals in Westeros aren't forced to suffer endlessly, going by how other criminals of his magnitude are treated Theon should either be executed or have to join the Watch. I think having someone's mind violated repeatedly as a punishment crosses the line.

P.S. Do you think Stannis is cursed for kinslaying? Also does kinslaying confer additional punishment legally or is it just social stigma/supposed divine punishment?

Yes he should be allowed to join the Watch or executed but torture and torturous executions are things in Westeros.  I think it's if the Lord feels like it, it's just how much the lord can get away with without his overlord getting knowledge of the behaviour. Remember Roose and Old Miller(husband to Ramsay's mother) and his family. Theon just got the short end of the stick as he's caught during a time of war and turmoil, with no overlord around to put an end to things and with a winter coming. Then again, he played a huge part in there being no overlord around to put an end to Ramsay's atrocities. So he brought this unto himself and not just comitting those crimes but also taking the people who'll stop this out of the equation. 

I don't think kinslaying confers any additional punishment by law but the social stigma can be a punishment all by itself and there's also the supposed cursed in the eyes of gods thing.As for Stannis, he hasn't exactly kinslayed. Is Dany a kinslayer for not preventing the death of Viserys? She may not have prevented his death as he has bared a blade in Vaes Dothrak but at the very least she could  have prevented his death at the hands of Ka Dargo.

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16 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

executed but torture and torturous executions are things in Westeros.

They are, but they don't last forever and it's not the same as Theon's mind being potentially violated in this manner.

16 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

As for Stannis, he hasn't exactly kinslayed. Is Dany a kinslayer for not preventing the death of Viserys? She may not have prevented his death as he has bared a blade in Vaes Dothrak but at the very least she could  have prevented his death at the hands of Ka Dargo.

Stannis is certainly more of a kinslayer than Daenerys in my opinion. His essence or life force was a key component of the shadow assassin and so I don't see how it occurred without his knowledge, or at least reasonable suspicion of what would happen. Stannis could have stopped Renly's death since he was required for it to happen. By contrast, Daenerys had less to do with whether her brother died or not. Viserys died because he drew blood in Vaes Dothrak. I really doubt anything Daenerys could have said would have changed the outcome. He broke one of the only rules in the sacred city. If Daenerys wasn't there and he did it to someone else, the outcome would be the same. Maybe she could have had Drogo just strangle Viserys instead but I am not sure if they would listen to her .At the very worst, Daenerys stood by and let her brother die. She took a passive role in the kinslaying. By contrast Stannis took an active role.

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6 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

They are, but they don't last forever and it's not the same as Theon's mind being potentially violated in this manner.

As I said, it is how much the lord can get away with. One of Jon's friends in the Watch has "raped" a lord's daughter in the Reach and was shipped off the NW. The punishment was gelding but he avoided it by choosing NW. A much smaller lord who isn't in the reach but in a far less populous area might have gotten away with endless torture if he had chosen so since there are no overlords around to learn of this.

 

11 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Stannis is certainly more of a kinslayer than Daenerys in my opinion. His essence or life force was a key component of the shadow assassin and so I don't see how it occurred without his knowledge, or at least reasonable suspicion of what would happen. Stannis could have stopped Renly's death since he was required for it to happen. By contrast, Daenerys had less to do with whether her brother died or not. Viserys died because he drew blood in Vaes Dothrak. I really doubt anything Daenerys could have said would have changed the outcome. He broke one of the only rules in the sacred city. If Daenerys wasn't there and he did it to someone else, the outcome would be the same. Maybe she could have had Drogo just strangle Viserys instead but I am not sure if they would listen to her .At the very worst, Daenerys stood by and let her brother die. She took a passive role in the kinslaying. By contrast Stannis took an active role.

His essence was but not only did he not commit the act but he hadn't ordered it either. He simply knew that Renly was going to die, the same way he knew "Renly" was going to defeat him beneath KL's walls, through Melisandre's fiery visions. In Stannis' eyes, both of these visions came to pass. He may have had reasonable suspicion but that's all. 

Danaerys had more to do. As I said, she couldn't have prevented Viserys' death since he broke that law but could perhaps have prevented the death coming by Khal Drogo's hand.

 

Also I just noticed I wrote Ka Dargo instead of Khal Drogo. Ka Dargo is a character from a sci-fi series called Farscape. A few days ago I've finished Farscape again after several years, hence the confusion:D

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43 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

His essence was but not only did he not commit the act but he hadn't ordered it either. He simply knew that Renly was going to die, the same way he knew "Renly" was going to defeat him beneath KL's walls, through Melisandre's fiery visions. In Stannis' eyes, both of these visions came to pass. He may have had reasonable suspicion but that's all. 

I am very doubtful that Melisandre assassinated Renly without Stannis' permission/prior knowledge. I don't think Stannis is especially stupid, so he would have realised what was going on before or when it happened or after. Therefore I don't think he could have maintained his belief (if he ever had one) that Renly's death was pre-ordained and so he had no responsibility. His actions after it happens strongly suggest to me that he is in denial about the part he played in the whole thing. Even if it all happened without his knowing (which I doubt) it wouldn't excuse him from the criteria anyway.

46 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Danaerys had more to do. As I said, she couldn't have prevented Viserys' death since he broke that law but could perhaps have prevented the death coming by Khal Drogo's hand.

I really think she'd have a hard time convincing them. Drogo was already unfavourably disposed towards Viserys. He was almost certainly going to die either way. Now you can argue that Daenerys was very passive about the whole thing and could have done more, Jon may share this view.

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If he is not a kinslayer, he is the next best thing. Axell Florent's brother had been burned by Melisandre, Maester Aemon had informed him, yet Ser Axell had done little and less to stop it. What sort of man can stand by idly and watch his own brother being burned alive?

But Daenerys' role in the kinslaying was a failure to act, passive at worst. With Stannis his actions directly resulted in Renly's death, compared to just Daenerys' lack of action. So I believe he is more complicit in the crime.

However, it may be worth noting that Daenerys herself also spilt blood in Vaes Dothrak...

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It caught him full in the face. Viserys let go of her. Blood ran down his cheek where the edge of one of the medallions had sliced it open. "You are the one who forgets himself," Dany said to him. "Didn't you learn anything that day in the grass? Leave me now, before I summon my khas to drag you out. And pray that Khal Drogo does not hear of this, or he will cut open your belly and feed you your own entrails."

 

47 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Also I just noticed I wrote Ka Dargo instead of Khal Drogo. Ka Dargo is a character from a sci-fi series called Farscape. A few days ago I've finished Farscape again after several years, hence the confusion:D

It's fine, I understood who you meant well enough ;)

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1 hour ago, TeethGrinder said:

Theon - "Halt your grace, it is I, Bran Stark, rightful lord of Winterfell. I am using this vessel to inform you that Theon is innocent of the crimes you accuse him of and that myself and Rickon remain ali..

Stannis - *chops his head off*

Reasonable point though, Bran needs to show it's him and not just Theon's psychosis.

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On 9/26/2022 at 8:38 AM, Craving Peaches said:

Theon has gone from being the one in charge to being completely humiliated and overpowered and stuff. So Theon has switched places. Bran hasn't. But Bran doesn't seem to want to continue the cycle of violence. This is quite an important them. If the violence is perpetuated then it can only lead to bad things. So if Theon is forcefully possessed by Bran then I don't really see the point. The cycle continues.

Perhaps Bran won’t need to actually skinchange into Theon. It’s probably enough that he is able to communicate with him somehow, perhaps by learning how to use the weirwood tree ‘voices’ more accurately.

It’s possible Theon might even willingly invite Bran into his mind, as some form of what he sees as atonement. Or at least some form of compromise. There are really many more subtle shades of possibilities here than: “he’ll skinchange into Theon or he won’t”.

I have a strong feeling that TWOW will explore skinchanging 
from multiple angles, and Bran’s POV will hopefully show us a slightly more ethical side. It’ll be a learning curve, though.

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As mentioned previously, there are men of the Liddle clan present. One of them could well have been the person Bran and company encountered on their way, or at least that person could have relayed the story. This is something that only Bran would know, allowing him to confirm his identity. 

Something else suitably supernatural and spooky could also occur, like a cloud of ravens clawing all at once to put them all in a receptive mood.

It might harder to convince people that Bran is actually alive and not a ghost haunting Theon. 

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