Jump to content

Craster, the Starks, the Others, and Human Sacrifice


Recommended Posts

12 hours ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

The foundations and oldest parts of the castle were already in place.  So unless another family founded Winterfell, those people in Bran's dream were Starks.  And the victim showed no evidence of willing compliance.  He was forced and murdered. 

We know that House Blackwood ruled area that is nowadays called Wolfswood so it is possible that they also controlled area where Starks later build Winterfell. So reason why Bran saw that execution was that was how House Stark took over that land. Or they sacrificed last Blackwood king to gods to gain their support and that ritual also made them new royal house.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Evolett said:

That's not what I meant. My question is why do the villagers of Whitetree make burnt offerings instead of blood offerings

My point was, I don't think it was an offering. The Free Folk usually burn their dead.

But did they really try to also burn the tree? Strange. Who did this? We should not assume all people north of the Wall share the same view of life, sacrifice, and worship.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

My point was, I don't think it was an offering. The Free Folk usually burn their dead.

But did they really try to also burn the tree? Strange. Who did this? We should not assume all people north of the Wall share the same view of life, sacrifice, and worship.

But why burn the dead within the tree instead of building a pyre in the open? Attempting to burn down the tree is an option but why this method then? Why bother with the effort of hollowing out the tree to create a large receptacle if that does not serve some distinct purpose? I lean towards a sacrificial offering. It's all very mysterious. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/7/2022 at 11:13 PM, Darth Sidious said:

You know, that is only a theory. And a poor one at that. Me, I believe Mance + Lyanna = Jon Snow. 
 

Most of the damage in Westeros have so far been the result of a Stark’s poor decision. So I can agree with Khal Rhaego Targaryen. From Catelyn’s illegal arrest of Tyrion, Robb’s rebellion, to Jon’s inept leadership at the Wall. It’s the Starks causing problems. 

 

On 10/8/2022 at 3:04 AM, Khal Rhaego Targaryen said:

Who said jon is a Targaryen? D&D?? LMFAO :lmao:

That's cute.  But neither of you is as funny as you think you are :rolleyes:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Evolett said:

I lean towards a sacrificial offering. It's all very mysterious.

Again. Except Melisandre, we have seen no one wanting to burn weirwoods. What happened at Whitetree seems not correlated with usal Free Folk practice and faith. Maybe some erratic, desperate, misguided act, of some fleeing, frightened people. Maybe also, something GRRM put there to confuse us.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Again. Except Melisandre, we have seen no one wanting to burn weirwoods. What happened at Whitetree seems not correlated with usal Free Folk practice and faith.

Perhaps we should take a closer look at Mel's burning of weirwoods in conjuction with her sacrificing people to the fire to see if we can discover anything useful that might be applied to the scenario at Whitetree. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Whitetree indeed presents a mystery.  A fire big and hot enough to burn flesh down to bones would have killed the tree.  The tree would have burned down long before the bones.  So the burning took place outside the tree.  Somebody wanted to cover up their cannibalism and shoveled the bones inside the tree.  The act of shoveling would carry ashes with it.  It appears to me that some of the villagers ate people.  The taboo must be kept secret.  It is hard to dig frozen ground.  So they put the unburned bones in a convenient hidey hole. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, Skahaz mo Kandaq said:

Whitetree indeed presents a mystery.  A fire big and hot enough to burn flesh down to bones would have killed the tree.  The tree would have burned down long before the bones.  So the burning took place outside the tree.  Somebody wanted to cover up their cannibalism and shoveled the bones inside the tree.  The act of shoveling would carry ashes with it.  It appears to me that some of the villagers ate people.  The taboo must be kept secret.  It is hard to dig frozen ground.  So they put the unburned bones in a convenient hidey hole. 

I think this is a possible reason. Food seemed to be scarce beyond the wall. Cannabalism is taboo so it would make sense that they wanted to cover it up. But there could still be cut marks on the bones to show their guilt.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Skahaz mo Kandaq said:

Whitetree indeed presents a mystery.  A fire big and hot enough to burn flesh down to bones would have killed the tree.  The tree would have burned down long before the bones.  So the burning took place outside the tree. 

In the Whitetree chapter, Jon discovers that the tree is blackend by fire inside the hollow so some burning, however great or small must have taken place in there. Weirwood is desirable as a building material because it does not rot, suggesting the wood is very resilient. The Whitetree weirwood is massive and appears to have withstood the flames because it's still thriving. The Harrenhal weirwood has a terrible angry face, full of hate and Arya wonders whether it has been hurt:

Quote

It was a terrible face, its mouth twisted, its eyes flaring and full of hate. Is that what a god looked like?
Is that what a god looked like? Could gods be hurt, the same as people? 

We know Aegon bathed Harrenhal in fire. Could the weirwood have suffered collateral damage from the fire during the assault? Is that why it has such a terrible face? If it was hit by Aegon's dragonfire it seems to have recovered. Speculation yes, but something to keep in mind. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Evolett said:

 

That the bodies were outside of the tree is not my understanding of the text. 

1. The mouth of the tree is large enough to swallow a sheep, in other words large enough to accept sizable offerings.

2. There are ashes in the hollow of the tree.

3. When Jon retrieves the skull from within the hollow, he notices that the insides are blackened by fire. The skull is also buried in ash, suggesting the burning took place there, the ashes left inside. 

Huh, right you are.  Seems I need to go back and do another re-read.

I don't think it's that unusual that the weirwood wasn't killed by things being burnt in its mouth....the tree is HUGE...scorching a small part of it isn't going to do much.  And wood does not readily burn unless dead and aged....you basically just get smoke as the sap burns but there's too much moisture.  Forest fires are generally the dead underbrush burning off, for example, and it takes a whole lot of time and intense heat for the still-living trees to light up.

But yeah.....wtf was going on in White Tree.  I still think it was likely the old and infirm who could not travel away to escape the others who were offered as sacrifice (perhaps even willingly, in the same way that old men in the North will go out on a "hunting trip" in winter to keep their family from starving?)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/10/2022 at 12:14 AM, Ring3r said:

I don't think it's that unusual that the weirwood wasn't killed by things being burnt in its mouth....the tree is HUGE...scorching a small part of it isn't going to do much.  And wood does not readily burn unless dead and aged....you basically just get smoke as the sap burns but there's too much moisture.  Forest fires are generally the dead underbrush burning off, for example, and it takes a whole lot of time and intense heat for the still-living trees to light up.

Thank you for this informed explanation :)

 

On 10/10/2022 at 12:14 AM, Ring3r said:

But yeah.....wtf was going on in White Tree.  I still think it was likely the old and infirm who could not travel away to escape the others who were offered as sacrifice (perhaps even willingly, in the same way that old men in the North will go out on a "hunting trip" in winter to keep their family from starving?)

I've come up with a really sinister hypothesis based on what we know of weirwoods and Mel's practice of burning people alive as a sacrifice to her god. We know Craster's mum hailed from Whitetree village and that he probably grew up there. He sacrifices his sons to the Others and sees them as his gods. Is this something he personally came up with or are his practices rooted in the beliefs of the people of Whitetree? Let's assume the latter. In this case the villagers of Whitetree might always have worshipped the "cold gods" and carried out rituals and sacrifices to support them. The practice of burnt offerings within a weirwood might be one of these rituals. If so, to what purpose?

Consider what we know about weirwoods: the CotF believe that the spirits or consciousness of all who die go into the trees and into nature at large so there is soul-material within the trees. Burning a person, dead or alive, releases the soul from the body. This happens when Drogo's body is burned on the pyre and is what Mel's burning practice is all about - the release of the soul. I suggest the same happens when you burn a weirwood. When the wood burns, the resident spirits are released. Perhaps this is why the Harrenhal weirwood has such a terribly angry face - it may have lost its spirits and memories after suffering collateral damage from Aegon the Conqueror's dragonfires. 

It is unclear why Mel burned the Storm's End godswood beyond her determination to wipe out the other gods of Westeros but perhaps she is aware that burning weirwoods also destroys ancient memories and releases wood-bound consiousness. What we do know is that Mel burns people as a sacrifice to influence the weather, specifically to conjure up winds to propell Stannis's ships for instance. At the Crofter's village, her followers believe a fire sacrifice will calm  the winter storm engulfing them. 

This knowledge can be applied to Whitetree. The wildlings are very diverse, there are sub-cultures within the whole, all strange and most of all ancient. What if the villagers of Whitetree are devoted to aiding the Others? Craster is doing his bit, why not his people? With all this in mind, it's possible the practice of burning offerings within the massive weirwood is a sacrifice designed to release a profusion of soul-energy which in turn powers the weather magic of the Others, allowing them to create the cold winds and mists they are associated with. The more I think about it, the more likely it seems to me. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Craster was not burning his children.  The White Walkers were not killing them.  They were turning them.  His children had something in them that was special.  Their DNA.  They share the same DNA as the father of the White Walkers, the Night's King, who was a Stark. 

The villagers at Whitetree were killing their offerings.  It's not the same thing other than they are all sacrifices one way or another.  Craster was giving to the White Walkers.  Whitetree people were giving to the Weirwood.  That they both live without getting murdered by the White Walkers meant they were somehow doing something which benefited. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Craster was not burning his children.  The White Walkers were not killing them.  They were turning them.  His children had something in them that was special.  Their DNA.  They share the same DNA as the father of the White Walkers, the Night's King, who was a Stark. 

The villagers at Whitetree were killing their offerings.  It's not the same thing other than they are all sacrifices one way or another.  Craster was giving to the White Walkers.  Whitetree people were giving to the Weirwood.  That they both live without getting murdered by the White Walkers meant they were somehow doing something which benefited. 

Whitetree was abandoned, though.  Like all the other wildlings the villagers went to join with Mance and are fleeing south or are dead.

Craster freely gives The Others what they want.  That makes him unique among humans north of The Wall - and he is reviled by the other wildlings for breaking this taboo - but there is nothing to say he is special in any other way.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, The Commentator said:

White Tree only had a few people. A band of Mance’s raiders could have easily killed them. The remains were cremated and fed to the tree to insult the Others.  More so if these were Craster’s people and came from the Stark bloodline. 

Raiders do their thing south of The Wall not north of it.  And Mance is King of The Wildlings so why would he or "his" raiders destroy Whitetree?  Whitetree is the closest wildling community or village to The Wall, that's all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/13/2022 at 5:58 PM, The Commentator said:

White Tree only had a few people. A band of Mance’s raiders could have easily killed them. The remains were cremated and fed to the tree to insult the Others.  More so if these were Craster’s people and came from the Stark bloodline. 

The most likely explanation is that the bodies were burned so they could not come back as whights. We don't know how they died but I doubt it was Mance's raiders. I think being attacked by the Others, or in the case of the infants, starvation, are more likely options.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Starks spent thousands of years in war as they tried to make the other families in the north submit to them.  The family's weir wood grew strong with the regular human sacrifice.  The Starks were cutting the throats of all the people they captured.  Thousands must have been killed to feed that damned tree of the Starks.  Warging and skinchanging are ancient powers.  The Boltons were torturing the Starks for a reason.  They wanted to use pain to force the skin charger to leave the body and control where it can go.  The Boltons should have and probably did put some lowly creature like a worm near the dying Stark and force him to live his life crawling in the mud.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
2 hours ago, Roswell said:

They are frozen deep in the crypts.

Crypts of WF were warm enough that Bran, Rickon and other people with them could survive there couple weeks. Besides Winterfell has been built over natural hot springs so those should keep crypts warmer than they would be without those hot springs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...