Craster, the Starks, the Others, and Human Sacrifice

[Moiraine Sedai]

The civilized and the wildlings do not usually work together. That they did tell us that what he was doing at the Wall was a threat to them all. Their only common enemy are the Others.  

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

On 9/25/2022 at 12:49 PM, Rosetta Stone said:

The free folk were also sacrificing whether they understood the ancient pact or not.  By discarding babies.  Mance is a man who never liked being made to do something he does not agree with.  He stopped the free folk from disposing of their babies in this way. 

I sort of get a kick out of the notion that wildlings abandon their babies all over the place like north of the wall is just crack city, but I think it's a pretty big leap from their somewhat foreign arrangement of the sexes to the idea that all of these unions lead to unwanted bastards and the mothers just say 'oh well I'll just abandon my baby to the walkers. Who's next?'

[Corvo the Crow]

1 minute ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

I sort of get a kick out of the notion that wildlings abandon their babies all over the place like north of the wall is just crack city, but I think it's a pretty big leap from their somewhat foreign arrangement of the sexes to the idea that all of these unions lead to unwanted bastards and the mothers just say 'oh well I'll just abandon my baby to the walkers. Who's next?'

There isn't such a thing as bastardy beyond the wall though. Remember that their marriage is done through a rape and kidnap of the bride and a beating of the groom. Remember Jon and Tormund. They may be aware of the concept but it doesn't seem to exist for them. Well perhaps if an already "married" man or woman make a child by not going through this ritual it may be considered a bastard, who knows but even then there's no stigma of being a bastard, at least for the majority of the wildlings since there are several different cultures.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

26 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

There isn't such a thing as bastardy beyond the wall though. Remember that their marriage is done through a rape and kidnap of the bride and a beating of the groom. Remember Jon and Tormund. They may be aware of the concept but it doesn't seem to exist for them. Well perhaps if an already "married" man or woman make a child by not going through this ritual it may be considered a bastard, who knows but even then there's no stigma of being a bastard, at least for the majority of the wildlings since there are several different cultures.

Yeah I probably shouldn't have used that word but I think we're making the same point. The far north likely isn't littered with unwanted babies that their promiscuous mothers don't raise because of the stigma.

[Moiraine Sedai]

1 hour ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

Yeah I probably shouldn't have used that word but I think we're making the same point. The far north likely isn't littered with unwanted babies that their promiscuous mothers don't raise because of the stigma.

Stigma or not, it will not change the fact that there had to be a lot of unwanted children. Life was hard and many were left to perish. 

[Corvo the Crow]

3 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Stigma or not, it will not change the fact that there had to be a lot of unwanted children. Life was hard and many were left to perish. 

This is a medieval setting and wildlings aren't even that, just tribal. Having numbers would be important to these people. Having fewer children is only a modern thing that isn't even a hundred years old. We are only having fewer children because we can afford to since thanks to advancements in medicine, especially pharmacology, people don't die from the simplests of things as often as they used to and thanks to fertilizers we get more food.

There would be plenty of unwanted babies and children, that's true but they would be the sickly ones, ones with congenital disabilities etc. 

The reason Craster gets such a deal from WW may be due to the fact that he offers them healthy babies. 

[Finley McLeod]

Human sacrifice is taboo.  The Starks were sacrificing for power.  The more they gave the gods the more they bless the Starks.  So they believed.  Craster was sacrificing to stay alive and earn the protection of his gods. 

This piece of history took place before the arrival of Queen Allysanne and her dragon.  I wonder if the story was edited to cover up for the Starks.  So we know the Starks were killing people to please the old gods.  The other houses as well as the peasants were doing the same thing to their extra mouths, babes.  Except it doesn't have to involve religion.  Just leave the children in the woods and nature will do the rest.  What if the lc was actually rescuing the children and raising them or giving them to the White Walkers to raise.  The White Walkers were increasing their numbers.  

[Craving Peaches]

4 hours ago, Finley McLeod said:

So we know the Starks were killing people to please the old gods.

How do we 'know' this? If the source is Bran's vision, that really isn't enough to go on because we don't know:

1. If it was human sacrifice or just a mode of execution

2. Who the people in the vision were

[Moiraine Sedai]

It’s possible for Jon’s body to end up with the White Walkers. He’s possibly a Stark on both parents. That should be a valued find for the them. They can resurrect the 13th commander.  

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, Moiraine Sedai said:

It’s possible for Jon’s body to end up with the White Walkers. He’s possibly a Stark on both parents. That should be a valued find for the them. They can resurrect the 13th commander.

How is it possible when Jon is south of the wall and the Others cannot resurrect people south of the wall?

[Rondo]

The Others will cross the wall or there won't be a story worth reading about in the north.  

[Rondo]

15 hours ago, Finley McLeod said:

Human sacrifice is taboo.  The Starks were sacrificing for power.  The more they gave the gods the more they bless the Starks.  So they believed.  Craster was sacrificing to stay alive and earn the protection of his gods. 

This piece of history took place before the arrival of Queen Allysanne and her dragon.  I wonder if the story was edited to cover up for the Starks.  So we know the Starks were killing people to please the old gods.  The other houses as well as the peasants were doing the same thing to their extra mouths, babes.  Except it doesn't have to involve religion.  Just leave the children in the woods and nature will do the rest.  What if the lc was actually rescuing the children and raising them or giving them to the White Walkers to raise.  The White Walkers were increasing their numbers.  

It is possible the NK was the good guy in the real story and the Starks were the villains.  Bran saw his ancestors murdering and sacrificing blood to their tree.  Each tree had drank so much blood that the sap has turned red.  

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, Rondo said:

Bran saw his ancestors murdering and sacrificing blood to their tree.  Each tree had drank so much blood that the sap has turned red.  

No he didn't. He saw an unknown woman executing an unknown man. We cannot tell whether it was a sacrfice or an execution. There is not much evidence that Weirwood sap is red due to human blood.

[Rondo]

4 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

No he didn't. He saw an unknown woman executing an unknown man. We cannot tell whether it was a sacrfice or an execution. There is not much evidence that Weirwood sap is red due to human blood.

They were feeding the tree.  Bran tasted the blood.  

[Craving Peaches]

45 minutes ago, Rondo said:

They were feeding the tree.  Bran tasted the blood.  

Blood touched the tree, doesn't mean they were feeding it in some sort of ritual. All we know from the vision was that a captive was killed in front of the tree. This could have been a sacrifice or it could have been an execution.

[Moiraine Sedai]

Craster thought his freedom was worth the sacrifices. The NK was probably thinking the sacrifices were justified to make him king of the wall. Jon was willing to sacrifice the world to pull his beloved sister away from her marriage. 

[Craving Peaches]

52 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Jon was willing to sacrifice the world to pull his beloved sister away from her marriage. 

No he wasn't.

[Roswell]

The Starks do not burn their dead.  His body is lying below Winterfell in a preserved condition.  Which means the Others will head straight for Winterfell and revive their ancestor.  And meet their Stark descendants along the way.  The argument is good enough for me that the Starks are related to Craster.  They are genetically connected to the Others. 

[the trees have eyes]

On 9/25/2022 at 4:37 PM, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

Craster's sons were special though.  The White Walkers allowed Craster, might have even protected him, to live in his keep.  All Craster did in return was to give them his sons.  His sons were more acceptable to the White Walkers and we have to ask why. 

There is nothing to suggest that Craster's sons are special or preferable in any way.  As to why they take his sons, well, why not?  It's the same reason we domesticated animals, you keep them and tend them (or let them wander at pasture) and take a lamb or calf when you need one.  Much less effort than hunting or trapping though in this case the supply is not for food but for "adoption" or "conversion".

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

There is nothing to suggest that Craster's sons are special or preferable in any way.  As to why they take his sons, well, why not?  It's the same reason we domesticated animals, you keep them and tend them (or let them wander at pasture) and take a lamb or calf when you need one.  Much less effort than hunting or trapping though in this case the supply is not for food but for "adoption" or "conversion".

I always thought they wanted the babies because the babies could be made into new Others/White Walkers and not just wights like all the other dead people.