Craster, the Starks, the Others, and Human Sacrifice

[Darth Sidious]

9 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

And how do you fit the fact that Jon is both Stark and Targaryen into this?

You know, that is only a theory. And a poor one at that. Me, I believe Mance + Lyanna = Jon Snow. 
 

Most of the damage in Westeros have so far been the result of a Stark’s poor decision. So I can agree with Khal Rhaego Targaryen. From Catelyn’s illegal arrest of Tyrion, Robb’s rebellion, to Jon’s inept leadership at the Wall. It’s the Starks causing problems. 

[Craving Peaches]

14 minutes ago, Darth Sidious said:

Jon’s inept leadership at the Wall. It’s the Starks causing problems. 

Snowhead isn't a Stark though. Also his leadership was rather competent especially in light of the massive existential threat that he was trying to combat.

15 minutes ago, Darth Sidious said:

Me, I believe Mance + Lyanna = Jon Snow

The logistics of this are suspect at best.

15 minutes ago, Darth Sidious said:

You know, that is only a theory. And a poor one at that.

More evidence for it than Mance being Jon's father.

[Khal Rhaego Targaryen]

13 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

And how do you fit the fact that Jon is both Stark and Targaryen into this?

Who said jon is a Targaryen? D&D?? LMFAO 

[BalerionTheCat]

9 hours ago, Darth Sidious said:

You know, that is only a theory. And a poor one at that. Me, I believe Mance + Lyanna = Jon Snow. 

I believe you could do better. Why not Craster? Mance was a sworn brother of the NW at the time.

5 hours ago, Khal Rhaego Targaryen said:

Who said jon is a Targaryen? D&D?? LMFAO 

Not just D&D. A lot more!

Who said it was Mance? Or Ned + Lyanna, Or Brandon, who was dead for more than a year?

[Rondo]

What would be the point of showing Bran his ancestor killing the prisoner to feed the Stark's weirwood if it were a one time event?  I do not think it was a one time sacrifice.  The Starks were killing people and sacrificing them to their tree.  Bran, if he is to be some kind of greenseer, needs to know the terrible things his family did.  He may be repeating those sins against humanity in the future.  After all, he will slowly cease being human as he blends with the tree.  He will need a cult to serve him and feed him blood.  Enter sister Arya into the picture.  

[Craving Peaches]

12 minutes ago, Rondo said:

What would be the point of showing Bran his ancestor killing the prisoner to feed the Stark's weirwood if it were a one time event?

We don't know if it was a Stark or not, and we don't know if it was a sacrifice or just an execution.

13 minutes ago, Rondo said:

The Starks were killing people and sacrificing them to their tree.

Is there any proof of this other than Bran's dubious vision?

14 minutes ago, Rondo said:

needs to know the terrible things his family did.  He may be repeating those sins against humanity in the future.

What terrible things? And if Bran knew of them why would he repeat them?

15 minutes ago, Rondo said:

He will need a cult to serve him and feed him blood.

Is there any proof of this?

[James Fenimore Cooper XXII]

7 hours ago, Rondo said:

What would be the point of showing Bran his ancestor killing the prisoner to feed the Stark's weirwood if it were a one time event?  I do not think it was a one time sacrifice.  The Starks were killing people and sacrificing them to their tree.  Bran, if he is to be some kind of greenseer, needs to know the terrible things his family did.  He may be repeating those sins against humanity in the future.  After all, he will slowly cease being human as he blends with the tree.  He will need a cult to serve him and feed him blood.  Enter sister Arya into the picture.  

 

7 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

We don't know if it was a Stark or not, and we don't know if it was a sacrifice or just an execution.

Is there any proof of this other than Bran's dubious vision?

What terrible things? And if Bran knew of them why would he repeat them?

Is there any proof of this?

My opinion is also the scene was not a one time sacrifice.  The question then is when did the Starks stop sacrificing to the tree?  Ned and Robb were not doing the human sacrifice thing.  We know at least that the recent leaders of the family were not feeding humans to the Winterfell heart tree.  My thinking is now the Starks stopped because the Targaryens passed laws to forbade the practice after the glorious Conquest that forged the kingdoms into one. 

The foundations and oldest parts of the castle were already in place.  So unless another family founded Winterfell, those people in Bran's dream were Starks.  And the victim showed no evidence of willing compliance.  He was forced and murdered. 

[James Fenimore Cooper XXII]

On 9/27/2022 at 6:07 AM, The Gizzard of Oz said:

Craster was treated like a bastard by the night's watch.  He was a bastard.  But bastards are loyal to their fathers' houses.  We need only to look at Jon Snow and Ramsay Snow.  He gave them shelter and food.  They gave him iron tools.  They were bartering.  He was doing the same bartering with the white walkers.  

The theory is fascinating.  I can't wait to see if Gilly and her biological son will have the talent to warg wolves.  

Or ride a dragon.  Gilly would not be my choice to ride beside Dany though.  I would prefer Greyworm and Missandei. 

[James Fenimore Cooper XXII]

On 10/3/2022 at 4:35 AM, Ring3r said:

There's nothing that proves it but it's pretty heavily implied.  Winterfell was supposedly founded by Bran the Builder....a Stark.  I can't imagine that they were in the habit of allowing randos into what amounts to their religious sanctum.

 

As far as the question of Craster....it's technically possible he's a Stark, but the timing of his birth would make more sense if he's the son of Bloodraven.  His age generally lines up, he's in his 60s or so.  It would give justification for the Others accepting his children - they would have First Man blood through the blackwoods.

Bloodraven is not the father.  There are no albino among Craster's family. 

[James Fenimore Cooper XXII]

On 9/30/2022 at 12:16 PM, Melifeather said:

Because any man of the Watch that accepts paternity is acknowledging that they are an oathbreaker and can be executed. An oathbreaker is cursed by the gods.

Thank you.  Very good input and appreciated by me. 

[James Fenimore Cooper XXII]

The bones of the humans in White Tree are burnt offerings. 

[Ring3r]

51 minutes ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

Bloodraven is not the father.  There are no albino among Craster's family. 

 

Not necessarily. Albinism is a congenital recessive condition that requires the gene be present in both parents for the trait to manifest.  If Craster's mother did not have the recessive gene, then he's only carrying one set of the gene.  If that one set is on his Y chromosome, none of his daughters would ever be albinos.  SOME of his sons might - but we have no idea what any of them look like except for Gilly's.

That said, while I think Bloodraven as the father is possible, I think it's more likely that Craster is the get of a random Ranger from the Nights Watch.  Given that he was raised without a father, the whole worshiping the old gods and practicing human sacrifice is surely inherited from his mother.  I wish we knew more about the specific religious beliefs of the various freefolk cultures.

[Evolett]

10 minutes ago, Ring3r said:

Given that he was raised without a father, the whole worshiping the old gods and practicing human sacrifice is surely inherited from his mother.  I wish we knew more about the specific religious beliefs of the various freefolk cultures.

Whitetree is so intriguing! As the Ghost of High Heart informs us, weirwoods are not fond of fire: 

Quote

“Look in your fires, pink priest, and you will see. Not now, though, not here, you’ll see nothing here. This place belongs to the old gods still … they linger here as I do, shrunken and feeble but not yet dead. Nor do they love the flames. For the oak recalls the acorn, the acorn dreams the oak, the stump lives in them both. And they remember when the First Men came with fire in their fists.” 

Yet Whitetree serves as a veritable crematorium and thrives. It's a massive tree with a canopy of healthy red leaves that spans the entire village. Why do the villagers make burnt offerings instead of blood offerings and why does the fire not seem to affect the health of the tree? I also wonder if Craster worships the old gods as in the trees at all. It seems his gods are the cold gods, the Others. That what he says and those are the gods he sacrifices to. 

[Bowen 747]

The sacrificial victims are not burned inside the tree.  That would kill the tree and defeat the purpose of the ceremony.  The victims were killed, bled, and their flesh was probably eaten by the wildlings.  The bones were then packed inside the tree as an offering to the gods. 

Craster worships the Others like his kinsman many years ago.  The Lord Commander who married an Other and ruled the Order for 13 years.  The Stark blood sacrifice to the Weirwood is not necessarily religion but a ceremony offering food to the Greenseers who are trapped beneath the trees.  Some of the Greenseers were Starks in their human lives.  The Starks were feeding family indirectly through the tree.  In his vision, Bran could taste the blood of the dying man.  The blood feeds the trees and the Greenseers. 

[Khal Rhaego Targaryen]

20 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Not just D&D. A lot more!

A lot more, except the author GRRM 

[Ring3r]

50 minutes ago, Bowen 747 said:

The sacrificial victims are not burned inside the tree.  That would kill the tree and defeat the purpose of the ceremony.  The victims were killed, bled, and their flesh was probably eaten by the wildlings.  The bones were then packed inside the tree as an offering to the gods.

Hmm....I agree it's likely the victims were burnt outside the tree and offered as sacrifice but I don't know about the rest.  I think it's more likely the people there knew the Others or wights were nearby and decided to vacate the village.  Anyone too old or infirm to make the trip was probably killed, then burnt to ensure they didn't rise, then offered to the tree as a sacrifice, in hopes it would help them escape.

The Thenns engage in things like you describe but I haven't seen any indication the other tribes do...in fact they greatly dislike the thenns.  But Whitetree isn't thenn territory.

[Craving Peaches]

9 hours ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

And the victim showed no evidence of willing compliance.  He was forced and murdered.

Yes, but he may have been a criminal being executed, not just some random man picked to sacrifice.

9 hours ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

the glorious Conquest

I don't think the conquest was glorious at all. Thousands of men burned to death just so Aegon could be king.

[BalerionTheCat]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

I don't think the conquest was glorious at all. Thousands of men burned to death just so Aegon could be king.

The conquest was not glorious. What followed still less: 300 years, nearly all of trouble, wars and rebellions.

[BalerionTheCat]

8 hours ago, Evolett said:

Why do the villagers make burnt offerings instead of blood offerings and why does the fire not seem to affect the health of the tree? I also wonder if Craster worships the old gods as in the trees at all. It seems his gods are the cold gods, the Others.

Burnt bones are not an offering to the Others. Living children, maybe.

These people were burnt so they could not become wights. Maybe they were sick or could not leave with the rest. Or they died of something else. Anyway, the tree was the way to stay close to their gods, the Old Gods. Like the fugitives of the weirwood grove.

[Evolett]

7 hours ago, Bowen 747 said:

The sacrificial victims are not burned inside the tree.  That would kill the tree and defeat the purpose of the ceremony.  The victims were killed, bled, and their flesh was probably eaten by the wildlings.  The bones were then packed inside the tree as an offering to the gods. 

 

6 hours ago, Ring3r said:

Hmm....I agree it's likely the victims were burnt outside the tree and offered as sacrifice but I don't know about the rest.

That the bodies were outside of the tree is not my understanding of the text. 

1. The mouth of the tree is large enough to swallow a sheep, in other words large enough to accept sizable offerings.

2. There are ashes in the hollow of the tree.

3. When Jon retrieves the skull from within the hollow, he notices that the insides are blackened by fire. The skull is also buried in ash, suggesting the burning took place there, the ashes left inside.  
 

Quote

He knelt and reached a gloved hand down into the maw. The inside of the hollow was red with dried sap and blackened by fire. Beneath the skull he saw another, smaller, the jaw broken off. It was half-buried in ash and bits of bone. 

Clearly, a fire was kindled within the tree. Mormont ponders why the wildlings burn their dead so perhaps some dead are burned within the tree to prevent them from rising. That raises the question of why the burning has to take place within the tree. 
The association with sheep however suggests a sacrifice. My reading on ancient sacrificial practices tells me that the precise location of the sacrifice is important. Human victims or animals were sacrificed directly on the alter or within the designated consecrated space. The Whitetree weirwood qualifies as a consecrated space and if burnt offerings were the preferred method of the inhabitants of Whitetree, then it makes sense to carry out the sacrifice directly within the tree. It is of course possible that the victim was killed and blooded beneath the tree prior to the burning within. My question as to why the tree continues to thrive despite exposure to fire remains unanswered. Perhaps this is an example of the magic of blood and fire specific to a weirwood tree. 

1 hour ago, BalerionTheCat said:

9 hours ago, Evolett said:

Why do the villagers make burnt offerings instead of blood offerings and why does the fire not seem to affect the health of the tree? I also wonder if Craster worships the old gods as in the trees at all. It seems his gods are the cold gods, the Others.

Burnt bones are not an offering to the Others. Living children, maybe.

That's not what I meant. My question is why do the villagers of Whitetree make burnt offerings instead of blood offerings in general (though they may also make blood offerings - we do not know for sure).
Craster is another matter. His mother hailed from Whitetree but he worships the cold gods. He could of course also worship the trees but it's not really clear.  

I also tend toward living children in the case of Whitetree, which would line up with Melisandre's magical practice, a variation thereof.