Craster, the Starks, the Others, and Human Sacrifice

[Kierria]

On 9/25/2022 at 11:37 AM, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

Craster was born to a Wildling woman and a man of the Night's Watch.  His mother presented him to the Watch but they refused to take him in.  He grew to manhood on the north side of the wall and built his own keep.  He took his daughters for wives and had children with them.  He was known to offer his baby sons to the White Walkers.  But still, he had always maintained good relations with the Night's Watch.  What is more remarkable are the White Walkers for allowing him to live at all.  The relationship between the Night's Watch, Craster, and the White Walkers is not simple.  It's not a simple "the friend of my enemy is also my enemy."  Craster was a friend to both.  You could say he was trading with the NW and the WW.

The thirteenth Lord Commander, a man from House Stark, met a pale woman and fell in love.  He took her for his wife and they ruled the Wall for thirteen years.  This man must have had the power to control minds because the Crows accepted this arrangement.  It was found that he was "sacrificing" his children to the White Walkers.  His name was removed from history to protect the Stark reputation.

The Wildlings are a promiscuous people.  Babies were made all the time.  It is assumed that many of these babies were unwanted and they were left in the woods to die.  The Lord's right to the first night also resulted in many unwanted babies that were left to die in the woods.  Craster's sons were special though.  The White Walkers allowed Craster, might have even protected him, to live in his keep.  All Craster did in return was to give them his sons.  His sons were more acceptable to the White Walkers and we have to ask why. 

Why was baby Craster turned away at the wall?  Probably because his presence would create an awkward situation for a noble family who was particularly prickly about their honor.  Craster's father was a Stark.  Just like the thirteenth lord commander was a Stark.  The boys he was offering to the White Walkers carried the blood line of the 13th commander.  Craster is of noble blood.  The Starks were the Kings In The North.  Craster has king's blood. 

The Starks of Winterfell also practiced human sacrifice, but of a different kind.  The Starks killed their victims and used the blood to provide nutrition for the Weirwood.  Craster gave his sons to the White Walkers and they were assimilated to the Others.  I am saying this.  The North have no problem with human sacrifice.  They left bastards and accidental babies to the elements to die.  So why did they all of a sudden have a problem with the 13th commander doing the same?  Because he was not.  He was not murdering the children.  He was offering them to the White Walkers.  He was increasing their numbers and making them powerful. His blood carried the skinchanging genes that the White Walkers depend on to control their wights. 

The Lord Commanders who followed learned that this bought them peace with the White Walkers.  The Free Cities gave gifts to the Dothraki to buy their safety.  The Night's Watch, Craster, were doing the same things.  Some truths are very uncomfortable.  The Lord Commanders must have kept this secret from the other Crows.  Bloodraven comes to the wall and expected to fight wildlings.  All of this must have been a shock to him. 

Why did Brandon build the wall?  I would guess because the Starks were reluctant to continue giving their sons.  But the flow of babies cannot be completely stopped.  The non-Stark babies were used as food for the wights.  The ones with the Stark genes, like Craster's, were assimilated to the White Walkers.  The White Walkers are placated as long as there is a Craster or a Stark provider.  Craster's death during the mutiny at his keep stopped the flow.  Trouble is coming. 

 

 

 

 

 

Human sacrifice or any animal sacrifice is cruel.  The Gods they worship must be cruel indeed.  If it's a choice between every body freezing to death and having to sacrifice a few then the math says you have to do the latter.  Or find another land to occupy. The choice is to leave or pay the price.  They or their victims pay the price.  It's bad but nobody thinks the FM are heroes. 

[Rondo]

On 10/14/2022 at 9:24 PM, The Gizzard of Oz said:

The Starks spent thousands of years in war as they tried to make the other families in the north submit to them.  The family's weir wood grew strong with the regular human sacrifice.  The Starks were cutting the throats of all the people they captured.  Thousands must have been killed to feed that damned tree of the Starks.  Warging and skinchanging are ancient powers.  The Boltons were torturing the Starks for a reason.  They wanted to use pain to force the skin charger to leave the body and control where it can go.  The Boltons should have and probably did put some lowly creature like a worm near the dying Stark and force him to live his life crawling in the mud.  

Hunters skin their game.  The Boltons treated the Starks like game because they associated them with animals.  The Starks can warg and skinchange animals.  

[kissdbyfire]

The Boltons’ penchant for flaying comes from skinchanger envy. 

[Quoth the raven,]

Clegane was the one who swung the sword but Sansa's like contributed to the death of the kid. 

 

I meant to put the above reply on the other thread.  So let me add a comment that is on topic and apologize to the author of this thread.

Rogare Bolton was a passionate and brutal hunter.  Roose himself is passionate at it. It was a time of war and he still took the time to hunt wolves in the Riverlands.  They were gutting the Stark ancestors like hunters dress their game.  The Boltons had to know the Stark secret.  Skinchanging.  The pain of flaying would have forced the Starks to leave the body even if it had nowhere to go.  It results in permanent death. 

Edited October 24, 2022 by Quoth the raven,
mistake

[Craving Peaches]

9 minutes ago, Quoth the raven, said:

Sansa's like contributed to the death of the kid

The sword was swung, or in the process of being swung, before Sansa even drew breath to utter a single word. Accusing Sansa is illogical.

[Darth Sidious]

The Boltons were flaying Starks. The Starks were sacrificing the Boltons and the smallfolk to their trees. It’s even Steven. 

[the trees have eyes]

15 hours ago, Quoth the raven, said:

Clegane was the one who swung the sword but Sansa's like contributed to the death of the kid. 

Sansa said she didn't remember what happened.  If I failed at logic as badly as you I could claim her memory loss affirms Arya's version and exonerates Mycah....

Not to mention that it has no bearing on what happens to him.  Or that she had already told Ned the truth.

 

 

[Gentlemen Prefer Blondes]

On 10/9/2022 at 6:05 PM, Evolett said:

In the Whitetree chapter, Jon discovers that the tree is blackend by fire inside the hollow so some burning, however great or small must have taken place in there. Weirwood is desirable as a building material because it does not rot, suggesting the wood is very resilient. The Whitetree weirwood is massive and appears to have withstood the flames because it's still thriving. The Harrenhal weirwood has a terrible angry face, full of hate and Arya wonders whether it has been hurt:

We know Aegon bathed Harrenhal in fire. Could the weirwood have suffered collateral damage from the fire during the assault? Is that why it has such a terrible face? If it was hit by Aegon's dragonfire it seems to have recovered. Speculation yes, but something to keep in mind. 

 

The biggest threat to trees, speaking from the Northwest US, is fire.  A forest fire.  Hot bones and ashes would burn the inside of a tree.  The weirwood is a creature of the North and is very sensitive to fire.  The heat from embers will be enough to scorch the insides of the tree.  

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, Skahaz mo Kandaq said:

The biggest threat to trees, speaking from the Northwest US, is fire.  A forest fire.  Hot bones and ashes would burn the inside of a tree.  The weirwood is a creature of the North and is very sensitive to fire.  The heat from embers will be enough to scorch the insides of the tree.  

There are weirwoods in several locations south of the Neck. And we know from different PoVs that they were everywhere when the FM first arrived. 

[Bowen Marsh]

The Starks were playing the game to consolidate their power in the north.  The human sacrifices were meant to increase their power by making offerings to the gods.  They learned the trick from the children of the forest.  The Starks were sacrificing their peasants and people from rival houses. 

[The Gizzard of Oz]

On 10/24/2022 at 1:27 PM, kissdbyfire said:

The Boltons’ penchant for flaying comes from skinchanger envy. 

The Starks have no secrets from the Boltons.  You might say the Boltons exposed them.  It was odd for Roose to hunt wolves in the Riverlands.  I don't think that was a meaningless event.  Roose was looking for something.  The book burning was also not without meaning. 

[kissdbyfire]

3 minutes ago, The Gizzard of Oz said:

The Starks have no secrets from the Boltons.  You might say the Boltons exposed them.  It was odd for Roose to hunt wolves in the Riverlands.  I don't think that was a meaningless event.  Roose was looking for something.  The book burning was also not without meaning. 

I’m not sure what you’re trying to get at here.

[Wm Portnoy]

Blood pays for magic.  The Starks encountered a lot of resistance from the other houses in the north.  They needed the magic and so they killed people for their blood.  They gave so much blood that they were granted the magical ability to warg.  

[Craving Peaches]

7 hours ago, Wm Portnoy said:

The Starks encountered a lot of resistance from the other houses in the north.  They needed the magic and so they killed people for their blood.  They gave so much blood that they were granted the magical ability to warg.  

Is there any evidence for this?

[Rondo]

The first men were hanging the guts and organs of their victims like holiday ornaments.  It wasn't only blood but flesh they were giving to the trees.  

[Craving Peaches]

4 hours ago, Rondo said:

The first men were hanging the guts and organs of their victims like holiday ornaments.  It wasn't only blood but flesh they were giving to the trees.

Is there any evidence for this?

[The Commentator]

7 hours ago, Rondo said:

The first men were hanging the guts and organs of their victims like holiday ornaments.  It wasn't only blood but flesh they were giving to the trees.  

 

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Is there any evidence for this?

In a story told to Davos.  

[The Commentator]

Blood pays for life and that was how the Starks kept the tree alive.  Blood kept the tree alive until it can grow roots long enough to reach deep underground.  It must have taken hundreds or even thousands of years before the roots can reach deep into the earth.  

[TheLastWolf]

Die thread!

[Craving Peaches]

2 hours ago, The Commentator said:

In a story told to Davos.

At the explicitly request of the former slaves for how their slavers should be punished. There was not much, if anything, to suggest that it is still a commonly used practice. The story was some hundred or more years ago and done at the request of the ex-slaves, the First Men Northmen didn't default to it.