Jump to content

Will we ever see the ultimate abomination - a character getting warged during their own POV?


Sandy Clegg

Recommended Posts

20 hours ago, Darth Sidious said:

Bran is angry but composed for the moment. He will lose it after he learns his fall was Jaime’s choice. That will be the moment he flips to the darkness. Strong emotions is the enemy. Love or hate doesn’t matter. It leads to a tragic character pivot that leads to more sorrow and destruction. 

He already knows that whoever did it to him  "made a choice" to toss him out a window, and I don't see why it would affect him all to much. He's already come to grips with his new reality. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The one who is possessed would not have a way to tell. It would be the end of his chapter. In his next chapter, he could remember something. But not much I suppose. The one who is possessed, if it is his PoV, it would be like Bran and Hodor. Not really different than self. Not that much all considered.

I don't think anyone but Bran (or BR of course) could do that. I'm sure Euron can do plenty of things, but I think he would use another mean. And he would not be a PoV anyway.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, BalerionTheCat said:

The one who is possessed would not have a way to tell. It would be the end of his chapter. In his next chapter, he could remember something. But not much I suppose. The one who is possessed, if it is his PoV, it would be like Bran and Hodor. Not really different than self. Not that much all considered.

I don't think anyone but Bran (or BR of course) could do that. I'm sure Euron can do plenty of things, but I think he would use another mean. And he would not be a PoV anyway.

Or there would be an obvious 'break' in their POV narrative, like we see in the end of Victarion's penultimate chapter in ADWD?

Vic goes into his cabin and then we get an eerie 'omniscient narrator' rather than following him inside the ship to see what Vic sees.

Quote

The iron captain was not seen again that day, but as the hours passed the crew of his Iron Victory reported hearing the sound of wild laughter coming from the captain's cabin, laughter deep and dark and mad, and when Longwater Pyke and Wulfe One-Eye tried the cabin door they found it barred. Later singing was heard, a strange high wailing song in a tongue the maester said was High Valyrian. That was when the monkeys left the ship, screeching as they leapt into the water.

The laughter sounds very Euron-esque and not in character for Victarion or Moqorro at all. What happened when Moqorro tried to heal Victarion's wounded hand? Was there some kind of skin-changing intervention by Euron, who presumably would not want a red priest meddling with his 'puppet'? Maybe the Valyrian wailing (surely Moqorro) was not to heal the arm, but to somehow 'exorcise' Euron? It would explain why we lose his POV for that passage - Vic is temporarily 'taken over' by the Crow's-Eye. Afterwards, he probably assumes that he briefly blacked out from the pain of the arm treatment, not knowing the truth of what transpired.

I had to reread all of those Victarion chapters after I thought of this, and I'm now pretty sure I have some more support for this idea. It might merit it's own separate thread, though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Sandy Clegg said:

The laughter sounds very Euron-esque and not in character for Victarion or Moqorro at all. What happened when Moqorro tried to heal Victarion's wounded hand? Was there some kind of skin-changing intervention by Euron, who presumably would not want a red priest meddling with his 'puppet'? Maybe the Valyrian wailing (surely Moqorro) was not to heal the arm, but to somehow 'exorcise' Euron? It would explain why we lose his POV for that passage - Vic is temporarily 'taken over' by the Crow's-Eye. Afterwards, he probably assumes that he briefly blacked out from the pain of the arm treatment, not knowing the truth of what transpired.

You're on to something here. I'm reminded of Mel taking down Orell's eagle but never really thought about her reason for taking the bird down. She must have sensed or "seen" Varamyr within the eagle. Being a shadowbinder she's a "soul specialist." We are told that one skinchanger can sense another but why wouldn't others versed in magic, expecially red priests or priestesses, be able to identify souls foreign to a creature or person? So yes, I suspect this has merit. Perhaps Moqorro's treatment of Victarion's arm, which is now crisp and blackend has marked him with fire to prevent further attacks. 

On the subject of Theon's POVs being a possible representation of the torment a person violated by a skinchanger feels, I discovered another bit of evidence directly referencing dogs in connection with skinchanging:

Quote

The big stableboy no longer fought him as he had the first time, back in the lake tower during the storm. Like a dog who has had all the fight whipped out of him, Hodor would curl up and hide whenever Bran reached out for him. His hiding place was somewhere deep within him, a pit where not even Bran could touch him. No one wants to hurt you, Hodor, he said silently, to the child-man whose flesh he’d taken. I just want to be strong again for a while. I’ll give it back, the way I always do.

 Hodor's soul finds a safe haven deep within his psyche. A few paragraphs after this however, Bran in Hodor's form hauls Jojen from the depths of the canyon the children were exploring - an allusion to Bran being able to find a way to access that safe haven, I suspect. Perhaps this is the effect Moqorro's Valyrian song had. In fact, that the monkeys that had infested the ship took off abrubtly during the singing suggests this was the case (think of monkey demons). We probably do need another thread. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Evolett said:

I'm reminded of Mel taking down Orell's eagle but never really thought about her reason for taking the bird down. She must have sensed or "seen" Varamyr within the eagle. Being a shadowbinder she's a "soul specialist." We are told that one skinchanger can sense another but why wouldn't others versed in magic, expecially red priests or priestesses, be able to identify souls foreign to a creature or person?

Great catch. Either she was being super cautious and fried every bird in the sky, or she sensed that this one eagle was being skin changed and took appropriate action.
 

I think Euron is being set up as an enemy to both Ice and Fire magic factions. He’s something ‘other’ and Lovecraftian. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

I think Euron is being set up as an enemy to both Ice and Fire magic factions. He’s something ‘other’ and Lovecraftian. 

 

3 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Water faction?

My personal theory pretty much revolves around this scenario. There are too many mentions of strange entities associated with the sea. Deep ones, selkies, merlings, squishers, mysterious invaders from the sea who attacked and wiped out land-dwellers etc. suggest a threat will emerge from the ocean, brought about by Euron, most likely. Some of Old Nan's tales about Others may be about these others, with tales and legends mixed-up and distorted over the course of time. The White Walkers do have their own specific name amongst these diffuse "others." 

The twist would be the importance of both Ice and Fire overcoming their differences to band together to eliminate a greater evil. The white walkers may have played a role in ridding Westeros of these invaders the last time round - for a fee. Humans defaulting on payments agreed to in the pact made by the Last Hero could be the cause of their wroth. Perhaps the "prince that was promised" was part of the deal. To me, despite the little we know about  them,  the white walkers have a "Pied Piper of Hamelin " feel about them and everything might depend on humans being able to convince them to pitch in once again. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Evolett said:

My personal theory pretty much revolves around this scenario. There are too many mentions of strange entities associated with the sea. Deep ones, selkies, merlings, squishers, mysterious invaders from the sea who attacked and wiped out land-dwellers etc. suggest a threat will emerge from the ocean, brought about by Euron, most likely. Some of Old Nan's tales about Others may be about these others, with tales and legends mixed-up and distorted over the course of time. The White Walkers do have their own specific name amongst these diffuse "others." 

The twist would be the importance of both Ice and Fire overcoming their differences to band together to eliminate a greater evil. The white walkers may have played a role in ridding Westeros of these invaders the last time round - for a fee. Humans defaulting on payments agreed to in the pact made by the Last Hero could be the cause of their wroth. Perhaps the "prince that was promised" was part of the deal. To me, despite the little we know about  them,  the white walkers have a "Pied Piper of Hamelin " feel about them and everything might depend on humans being able to convince them to pitch in once again. 

For me there is the ice and fire factions, possibly a water faction, but also a nice moderate green faction, the happy medium between them all. Best option for humans. Not too hot, not too cold. Goldilocks faction. Just right.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

Vic goes into his cabin and then we get an eerie 'omniscient narrator' rather than following him inside the ship to see what Vic sees.

Yes, this passage is strange indeed. This is a Victarion PoV. But he doesn't tell was is happening. Instead, we have a later account. As if he asked his crew what happened because he doesn't remember.

I imagine it was GRRM's trick to hide what happened in the cabin. But maybe it was also because Victarion really couldn't remember.

I think the mad laughter was Victarion's. He said he would laugh at pain. And if one man can do it, it's Victarion. Or it could be something like the Shadows in Khal Drogo's tent, with Mirri Maz Duur. The high wailing song in Valyrian could be Moqorro. I don't think Euron was involved. I don't think he is helping the Red Priests or controlling Victarion. I don't think it was some kind of exorcism.

But yes, Victarion could have been possessed by something, like the Shadows, the shadow binders summon in their magic.

9 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

I think Euron is being set up as an enemy to both Ice and Fire magic factions. He’s something ‘other’ and Lovecraftian. 

Yes. I think Euron belongs to neither Ice or Fire, Light or Death. Maybe he has some dealings with the Deep ones, supposedly the creatures at the origin of the Drowned God religion. But even there I think he has his own game. Ice, Fire, Light, Death, Water, Storms, Starry Wisdom, Life and Nature... Maybe some are the same, or are fake. But I think we have more than a bipolar confrontation between 2 radically opposite sides.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
On 9/26/2022 at 1:32 PM, Jaenara Belarys said:

He already knows that whoever did it to him  "made a choice" to toss him out a window, and I don't see why it would affect him all to much. He's already come to grips with his new reality. 

I disagree. It’s not reasonable to expect Bran to let it go. I hope he doesn’t.
I have noticed that those who want Bran to forgive Jaime have a tendency to be anti-Dragon.  I am Pro-Dragon so I would like Bran and Jaime to have conflict. It will be entertaining to see how Jaime fights a warg. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Actually, I think we will indeed see this, in a Bran chapter.

Not everything in season 8 of the show was made up - some of it came from GRRM.  Bran's last stand at the Winterfell weirwood, I think, rings true.  In the show he basically did nothing but spy with birds, but in the books, it'd be a great location for a final "mind-fight" between him and whomever ends up leading the Others (Euron, I think).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Darth Sidious said:

I disagree. It’s not reasonable to expect Bran to let it go. I hope he doesn’t.
I have noticed that those who want Bran to forgive Jaime have a tendency to be anti-Dragon.  I am Pro-Dragon so I would like Bran and Jaime to have conflict. It will be entertaining to see how Jaime fights a warg. 

Bran will rather thank Jaime. Anyway, he would not be a greenseer in a position to save the world without Jaime. Without him, he would have been skinned by Ramsay.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...

That we could „lose“ a POV per some sort of skinchanging is prettily set up, as some of the posts above pointed out.

I would add that warging isn’t the only way to gain the affect.

We have Melissandre and her ability to charm another body to act the way she wants and we have Jon’s lifeless body.

We might be surprised - along with his assassins - to have Jon back acting as if his death never happened. Because it is really Mel‘s mind inside (or rather behind) the body, who profits from the fear it inspires in the right group of people.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...