The morality of war - Man's inhumanity to man

[Larry of the Lawn]

3 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Should we dig up Kennedy, Johnson, and Nixon and put them on trial for war crimes?  Would that set the world to rights?  How about Wilson and TR they were both in charge of the US during the US Suppression of native Phillipine resistance to the US occupation.  What about all the “banana wars” in central and South America if all US leaders from those eras are posthumously tried for war crimes can the US… then… offer aid and assistance to Ukraine while Russia floods Ukaine with intrained and ill equipped troops in human wave attacks to force Ukraine to capitulate to Russia’s invasion without rhetorical difficulties?

 

The thing is that when one country has a track record of aggressively pursuing its own ends through violence, which is always justified and rationalized as it's happening, and often for years after in history books, people are probably eventually going to be somewhat skeptical of claims that "it's for a good cause this time, really".  Especially when said country has never really recognized any of its past fuckups.  

The US is experiencing a variation of the Boy Who Cried Wolf effect.

[Werthead]

Quote

Sorry, how did Afghanistan ‘allow’ anything? First, no one even knew who was behind 9-11 until months after the attack.

Addressing from the other thread, this is not really true. People were speculating who was behind this in the media as the towers came down, and Al Qaeda and Bin Laden's names came up almost immediately. Al Qaeda had recently attacked the USS Cole and had been fingered in connection with US embassy bombings in Africa just a couple of years earlier. It was generally agreed that no state actor would be stupid enough to authorise such a mission because of the inevitable retaliation, and the list of non-state actors with the resources and ability to pull off such an operation was really limited to Al Qaeda.

I remember the Northern Alliance launching a renewed offensive the week after 9/11 and US government representatives had to go on television and say they were not yet taking part in any military action against Afghanistan.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Is it reasonable to pin deaths caused by US opponents upon the USA?  Don’t groups that oppose the USA have moral responsibility for their own killings/rapes/deportations etc?

I get very tired of what I call the “international diplomacy wife beater defense”.  “I love you so much… why do you make me so mad… why do you make me do this to you.” It is Russia’s argument in Ukraine.

[James Arryn]

7 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Should we dig up Kennedy, Johnson, and Nixon and put them on trial for war crimes?  Would that set the world to rights?  How about Wilson and TR they were both in charge of the US during the US Suppression of native Phillipine resistance to the US occupation.  What about all the “banana wars” in central and South America if all US leaders from those eras are posthumously tried for war crimes can the US… then… offer aid and assistance to Ukraine while Russia floods Ukaine with intrained and ill equipped troops in human wave attacks to force Ukraine to capitulate to Russia’s invasion without rhetorical difficulties?

 

To quote myself from an hour or so before you made this post: “It’s pretty convenient for one of the serial killers to be all ‘oh, well, this is not an ideal world, so failing that we should…’ etc. ”

Also, Scot, what about the U.S. actually being held accountable for it’s own crimes would preclude aiding Ukraine?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

4 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

It's too late for that, Scot. The idea is already soaked in credence.

You need to understand that, outside of the USA, most people hold an extremely unfavourable view of US foreign policy. Many will see no real difference between what Putin is doing and the actions of a series of warmongering American presidents.

I'm not saying that's right. But your denial of this basic, inescapable truth should be corrected.

 

I’m well aware.  What I cannot fathom is anyone amplying and creating any sort of rhetorical leverage for the Russian “whatabout warrior” horseshit.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

48 minutes ago, maarsen said:

Just off of the top of my head but Iceland?

Would the Inuit of Greenland agree?

[SeanF]

1 minute ago, James Arryn said:

Who are you holding responsible for the deaths in Ukraine, and why? And this is kinda skipping the part where the lion’s share still belongs to the US coalition.

I hold the people who murder and torment civilians directly responsible for doing so.

 “The Big Boy/USA made me do it” is no excuse for them.  

So, when IS burn civilians alive/rape Yazidi women, when Boko Haram kidnap girls, when Libyan factions operate slave markets, the moral responsibility is theirs.

[Spockydog]

Quote

What I cannot fathom is anyone amplying and creating any sort of rhetorical leverage for the Russian “whatabout warrior” horseshit.

Yeah, I'm sure Putin will be taking screenshots from this website to feed his propaganda machine.

 

[Spockydog]

I take my dog to a big old pet superstore every few weeks as a special treat.

One of the first things she does after walking through the door is piss on the floor.

Should I feel ashamed? Bend down and wipe up my dog's piss?

Hell, no. Of course I shouldn't. Why not? Because every other fucking dog gets to piss on that floor the moment it enters the shop.

Why should my dog be any different?

 

[James Arryn]

9 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Addressing from the other thread, this is not really true. People were speculating who was behind this in the media as the towers came down, and Al Qaeda and Bin Laden's names came up almost immediately. Al Qaeda had recently attacked the USS Cole and had been fingered in connection with US embassy bombings in Africa just a couple of years earlier. It was generally agreed that no state actor would be stupid enough to authorise such a mission because of the inevitable retaliation, and the list of non-state actors with the resources and ability to pull off such an operation was really limited to Al Qaeda.

I remember the Northern Alliance launching a renewed offensive the week after 9/11 and US government representatives had to go on television and say they were not yet taking part in any military action against Afghanistan.

In fact initial US intel also focused on Saddam Hussein, as recorded by Bob Woodward from the Oval Office. Yes, many names were being bandied about, and I agree AQ was prominent, but most pertinent to Afghanistan, no public disclosures of the intel suspicions/conclusions were made public for months, which was my point.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

13 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

To quote myself from an hour or so before you made this post: “It’s pretty convenient for one of the serial killers to be all ‘oh, well, this is not an ideal world, so failing that we should…’ etc. ”

Also, Scot, what about the U.S. actually being held accountable for it’s own crimes would preclude aiding Ukraine?

Because it would cause political turmoil in the US likely freezing up aid as Republicans call anyone attempting to recognize the US as anything but the “shining city on a hill”… traitors.  It would feed the “America First” monster that is already growing in the US turning the US inward.  It would give aid and comfort to the Paul Gorsuch assholes who claim what Russia does to Ukraine is none of our business.  He would say “look at those people trying to punish the US for ‘helping’.”  

The America First asswipes would be delighted if you pushed this into American politics.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

8 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

Yeah, I'm sure Putin will be taking screenshots from this website to feed his propaganda machine.

 

You think big things aren’t made up of small things?

[Spockydog]

17 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Addressing from the other thread, this is not really true. People were speculating who was behind this in the media as the towers came down, and Al Qaeda and Bin Laden's names came up almost immediately.

Yeah, and one of the first things Bush and his goons did was to airlift a whole bunch of Bin Laden's relatives out of the country.

What the fuck was all that about?

 

[Larry of the Lawn]

4 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

You think big things aren’t made up of small things?

Yeah the conscription documents Russians are receiving are just a collage of spockydog and jamesarryn posts.

[James Arryn]

3 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Because it would cause political turmoil in the US likely freezing up aid as Republicans call anyone attempting to recognize the US as anything but the “shining city on a hill”… traitors.  It would feed the “America First” monster that is already growing in the US turning the US inward.  It would give aid and comfort to the Paul Gorsuch assholes who claim what Russia does to Ukraine is none of our business.  He would say “look at those people trying to punish the US for ‘helping’.”  

The America First asswipes would be delighted if you pushed this into American politics.

You understand that what you’re saying here is that the reason America can’t be held accountable is because much of the country’s perspective is so fucked up it’s systemically unable to hold itself accountable BUT that should in no way be part of the consideration for the US’s ability to judge other countries. You get that, right?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

1 minute ago, Larry of the Lake said:

Yeah the conscription documents Russians are receiving are just a collage of spockydog and jamesarryn posts.

Not what I said.  I’m saying it does, in a small way, help Russia when their “whatabout” defense or “wife beater” defense is given credence.

[Spockydog]

2 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Not what I said.  I’m saying it does, in a small way, help Russia when their “whatabout” defense or “wife beater” defense is given credence.

No, it doesn't. Nothing written here is going to make a blind bit of difference to events in Ukraine.

 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

2 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

You understand that what you’re saying here is that the reason America can’t be held accountable is because much of the country’s perspective is so fucked up it’s systemically unable to hold itself accountable BUT that should in no way be part of the consideration for the US’s ability to judge other countries. You get that, right?

Yes… I get that.  Do you want the “America First” crowd in control of the US?  This is a sincere question.

You keep asking us to look at the facts on the ground in Russia regarding the Horseshit rationalizations Putin is offering and the consequences that flow therefrom.  Why isn’t that logic just as cutting and cogent regarding the political facts on the ground in the US?

I would be ecstatic if the US could take a rational and eyes open hard look at our history of intervention and white supremacy.  Can (I use “can” deliberately) that be done without empowering the very forces we seek to remove from positions of power in the US?

[Spockydog]

2 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I would be ecstatic if the US could take a rational and eyes open hard look at our history 

I have similar thoughts about my own country. Never gonna happen, though.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

3 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

I have similar thoughts about my own country. Never gonna happen, though.

It’s incredibly difficult.