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The morality of war - Man's inhumanity to man


Which Tyler

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2 minutes ago, Week said:

Nah, I meant it as a joke. It's rather absurd to snipe at getting high as a reaction to predictable, absurd news that many voted and organized against (not you or I at the time, other than verbally). Even moreso absurd considering the many people who can't vote - underage, undocumented, etc. - that are also carefully tarred by the invective toward the "America people". Love for guns and god with hatred towards socialism doesn't describe the vast majority of people in the US.

Yeah, the best way to describe most people in the US is 'apathetic'. They were largely fine with the Iraq war because it didn't affect them personally. They were largely fine with Trump for the same reason. This is obviously incredibly dangerous to the rest of the world - the world's largest military and economic power is controlled by the whims of a populace that favors drama, reality TV and cares very little about any harm it causes provided that it doesn't hurt back. It's obviously incredibly dangerous to the folks who aren't part of that apathy, resulting in the world's largest jailed populace and ethnic minorities routinely being abused. 

But definitely don't blame the people. Me, I blame society. 

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6 minutes ago, KalVsWade said:

the world's largest military and economic power is controlled by the whims of a populace that favors drama, reality TV and cares very little about any harm it causes provided that it doesn't hurt back.

Find me a populace that isn't more or less the same way and I'll find you a populace full of shit.

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3 minutes ago, KalVsWade said:

Yeah, the best way to describe most people in the US is 'apathetic'. They were largely fine with the Iraq war because it didn't affect them personally. They were largely fine with Trump for the same reason. 

This may pedantic and irrelevant, though I'll risk it anyway... I don't think apathetic is the right word here (though apathy is a problem).

There have been millions of votes cast, dollars raised, and miles marched that ultimately have not resulted in significant changes. We're recognizing that the gears of governance aren't still moved by democratic mobilization as much as expected. Recently, there have been more protests at schools by students against bigoted bills assailing transgender students rights -- what's that going to change for the GQP Gov in VA? Nothing. It might lead to additional engagement and support for Dems though absolutely nothing to ameliorate the situation (read, assault on basic rights, speech, and books) in any reasonable timeframe.

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12 minutes ago, DMC said:

That's our @Relic!

Well, on one hand you are almost rabid at the idea of anyone blaming average Americans for the Iraq invasion, on the other you're blithely stating that your response to it was to get high. Although I get your point. Expecting the citizens of a representative democracy to take responsibility for the actions of their leaders IS too much to ask for. 

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1 minute ago, DMC said:

Find me a populace that isn't more or less the same way and I'll find you a populace full of shit.

Think you missed the part about how it's pretty important that this one, in particular, is not actually apathetic due to the outward power that they have. 

I did see a study that indicated also that while apathy with luxury is a common behavior, it's worse in the US than in other places; other populations are more engaged, more informed, more interested, and less willing to accept major changes. But really it doesn't matter; even if the US was entirely normal the power that it has means that the risk is significantly worse.

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1 minute ago, Week said:

This may pedantic and irrelevant, though I'll risk it anyway... I don't think apathetic is the right word here (though apathy is a problem).

There have been millions of votes cast, dollars raised, and miles marched that ultimately have not resulted in significant changes. We're recognizing that the gears of governance aren't still moved by democratic mobilization as much as expected. Recently, there have been more protests at schools by students against bigoted bills assailing transgender students rights -- what's that going to change for the GQP Gov in VA? Nothing. It might lead to additional engagement and support for Dems though absolutely nothing to ameliorate the situation (read, assault on basic rights, speech, and books) in any reasonable timeframe.

And much like your point about how most Americans are not all about guns and religion, most Americans are not about protests and mobilization. You can't have it both ways here. 

To be fair, apathy is also a reasonable behavior in the US for a large chunk of people, because they've seen what that mobilization does and how it affects things - which is to say, not very much. That is of course how the people who are largely in power want it, mind you, but it is also a reasonable outcome to decades of pushing and failing. 

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6 minutes ago, DMC said:

Find me a populace that isn't more or less the same way and I'll find you a populace full of shit.

You mean the populace of a country with the military might of the USA? Kind of a hard ask, no?

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3 minutes ago, DMC said:

Find me a populace that isn't more or less the same way and I'll find you a populace full of shit.

"We're no worse than anyone else" may be true, but it's a pretty tough thing to hear about a country that aspires to some high and mighty principles and regularly calls itself the Greatest Nation on Earth. I believe that as the .1 % of history, we have a duty to be better and more responsible with our power and influence.

 

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5 minutes ago, Relic said:

Well, on one hand you are almost rabid at the idea of anyone blaming average Americans for the Iraq invasion, on the other you're blithely stating that your response to it was to get high.

Yep!  I was 17.  My response to everything was to get high.  Hell, still is, I just don't have as much weed as I did then.  Oh, those were the days...

Still doesn't make anything "blithe."  You can get high and still do as much as possible as a responsible citizen to try and object.  It takes a REALLY stupid person to think those two are mutually exclusive.

8 minutes ago, KalVsWade said:

Think you missed the part about how it's pretty important that this one, in particular, is not actually apathetic due to the outward power that they have. 

I did see a study that indicated also that while apathy with luxury is a common behavior, it's worse in the US than in other places; other populations are more engaged, more informed, more interested, and less willing to accept major changes. But really it doesn't matter; even if the US was entirely normal the power that it has means that the risk is significantly worse.

Alrighty then.  That study sounds pretty silly, but have no interest in being argumentative.  Literally everything you just said supports my argument.

7 minutes ago, Relic said:

You mean the populace of a country with the military might of the USA? Kind of a hard ask, no?

It sure is!  That's the point.

shit..power's going out, will edit if I can...

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16 minutes ago, KalVsWade said:

And much like your point about how most Americans are not all about guns and religion, most Americans are not about protests and mobilization. You can't have it both ways here. 

To be fair, apathy is also a reasonable behavior in the US for a large chunk of people, because they've seen what that mobilization does and how it affects things - which is to say, not very much. That is of course how the people who are largely in power want it, mind you, but it is also a reasonable outcome to decades of pushing and failing. 

We

 

13 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

"We're no worse than anyone else" may be true, but it's a pretty tough thing to hear about a country that aspires to some high and mighty principles and regularly calls itself the Greatest Nation on Earth. I believe that as the .1 % of history, we have a duty to be better and more responsible with our power and influence.

 

At the risk of a tortured analogy, [nevermind, lunch and work convinced me that the Titanic or a runaway train quickly become too tortured].

Suffice to say, structurally we've built a society with the suggestion of democracy and encourage democratic engagement when all that matters is capital. Preservation of US wealth, control, and power cannot be bargained with. Citizens get a say and can change local matters and some large changes on the fringes -- but cutting the military budget by 20%? Get real (let alone 50%+). Better accountability? That's an attack on defense contractors bottom line which will not be tolerated. 

I dunno, I'm rambling and on my phone. Bah.

ETA - sorry Kal, I can't delete that block quote but uh hi!

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As an interesting counterexample: Biden has almost entirely removed drone strikes by the US throughout the world. Obviously part of that is leaving Afghanistan, but part of that is his choices. 

How much news is there of this in mainstream news? How many people care that thousands of people are not actually being killed regularly as part of collateral damage? 

When I say that the US is largely apathetic, that's a good example too - even good news about not killing as many people is not broadcast, not covered, and no one cares. 

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4 minutes ago, KalVsWade said:

How much news is there of this in mainstream news? How many people care that thousands of people are not actually being killed regularly as part of collateral damage? 

When I say that the US is largely apathetic, that's a good example too - even good news about not killing as many people is not broadcast, not covered, and no one cares. 

Does this speak more to the current proclivities of mainstream media? Well, truly all media -- even left leaning outlets. Avoidance of dead kids in a country on the other side of the world doesn't drive eyeballs and clicks.

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1 minute ago, Week said:

Does this speak more to the current proclivities of mainstream media? Well, truly all media -- even left leaning outlets. Avoidance of dead kids in a country on the other side of the world doesn't drive eyeballs and clicks.

But it doesn't drive clicks because the populace doesn't care, either. They didn't care about the drone strikes happening to begin with; they don't care now that they're stopped.

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19 minutes ago, DMC said:

It takes a REALLY stupid person to think those two are mutually exclusive.

shit..power's going out, will edit if I can...

I've been accused of worse. Also, good luck, stay safe!

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All this talk about us being guilty of everything in the world, reminded me of something I wanted to post a while back when James Arryn in the Ukraine thread was talking about how the Russians feel about it and how Putin blames that special operation on US:

https://carnegieendowment.org/2022/09/07/my-country-right-or-wrong-russian-public-opinion-on-ukraine-pub-87803

I get the limitations of the study and I acknowledge that the sample is small however it’s interesting and they do detail the methodology of those surveys in the referenced sources at the bottom. That’s if anyone has the patience to read it.

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I'm still fine y'all -- but seriously thanks for the worry.  Definitely didn't want that to change the conversation in any way, just reacted and typed that quickly.

27 minutes ago, KalVsWade said:

HAHAHAHAHAHA

Not sure what you're laughing about.  I'm trying to agree with you man, c'mon.  You mentioned some study that sounded silly and you didn't even cite.

17 minutes ago, Relic said:

I've been accused of worse. Also, good luck, stay safe!

Me too -- especially when I'm high :P  Seriously, thanks.

19 minutes ago, TormundsWoman said:

we all know that the Storm is all your fault anyways, possibly the US people as a whole and you should take full responsibility :P

Well done.

51 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

"We're no worse than anyone else" may be true, but it's a pretty tough thing to hear about a country that aspires to some high and mighty principles and regularly calls itself the Greatest Nation on Earth. I believe that as the .1 % of history, we have a duty to be better and more responsible with our power and influence.

We do!  But we're not.  And Lewis Black knows that as well as anybody.  Have you seen his recent sets?

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1 hour ago, KalVsWade said:

But it doesn't drive clicks because the populace doesn't care, either. They didn't care about the drone strikes happening to begin with; they don't care now that they're stopped.

It doesn't drive clicks because it does not hit the violence/erogenous medulla oblongata response. Media, extending to social media, has been defended and optimized to human emotion/engagement/response. I don't believe this is a USian issue to be blame on individuals.

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