[Spoilers] Episode 106 Discussion

[C.T. Phipps]

7 minutes ago, zajaz said:

So, re-watching the episode again. Acting is top-notch and it was overall quite good... save for fricking Alicent. Don't get me wrong (I don't mean to sound whinny), I'm not questioning Olivia Cooke Alicent, quite the opossite, in fact. She's playing her exactly how I imagined book Alicent to be (5 out of 5 stars)... but I can't see anything at first glance that makes me go: "Yeah, that's Emily Carey grown up, alright".

I didn't have that problem because we've had 5 episodes of Alicent being growing more miserable and bitter.

[zajaz]

4 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I didn't have that problem because we've had 5 episodes of Alicent being growing more miserable and bitter.

Yeah, maybe it's just me. There is just something that I can't quite connect regarding Emily Carey's and Olivia Cooke's respective performances. As I said, perhaps starting from this episode (and pretending the previous five do not exist) when re-watching the series would be a better course of action (to me, that is).

[The Bard of Banefort]

This . . . felt like a completely different show. I don't know how to feel about any of it. This episode would have been so much stronger if we had one more episode after Rhaenyra's wedding that established her affair with Harwin and Laena's marriage to Daemon. It would have set everything up and given some much needed development to Harwin and Laena.

I don't understand evolution. How have we not evolved to the point where childbirth isn't painful anymore? A little help here, Mother Nature.

I may have to take back what I said about HOTD not going for shock value. Aegon jacking off, completely naked, out a window is worse than any dumb cock joke we got from D&D. It was so ridiculous and not in a good way. Also Daemon riding through a plume of dragonfire unscathed.

I think my biggest complaint overall, aside from the pacing, is just how overwhelmingly dismal everything is. The characters' all have different personalities; they shouldn't all be equally miserable all the time.

All the new actors were excellent, although some of the writing decisions puzzled me.

Laena was great, I wish we got more of her. When I first heard about her death, I was surprised that none of the reviews alluded to it. Now I understand why: for whatever reason, the show downplayed all three fire deaths by making them happen quickly and then cutting away almost immediately. Interesting to see that even now Daemon is still an ass who doesn't really care about anyone else. Granted, it seems unlikely that Laena wouldn't have wanted to give her child a chance to survive if she knew she was going to die either way. The writer in the BTS said they had Laena "go out like a warrior" and not like another woman in childbirth. She probably didn't intend for it to come out this way, but I found that pretty sexist, to be honest. I guess if women die in a way men are unable to, then it must be pretty lame.

It's only been one episode, but I found adult Rhaenyra much more likable than her younger counterpart. Despite her reckless decisions, she came across as the most sensible person in the room, and she was also the only person to mention the toll of war during the council meeting.

I loved the scenes between Rhaenyra and Harwin, although I wish we'd gotten more. It would have been nice to see one private conversation between them. I thought it was a nice touch to have Rhaenyra leave King's Landing right after Harwin did, showing that he was the reason she stayed (since he was still in the city watch in the show, and not her sworn sword).

Criston Cole's actor is much better at playing a complete dipshit than a wannabe white knight. He really makes you despise him.

Laenor's actor was incredibly charismatic, but his character did a bit of a 180, from someone who was very timid to a drunken party boy.

It makes sense that Alicent is now a jumble of anger and anxiety, but it also felt like so many of her positive traits were washed away. Her last scene with Larys was the only time I really felt her humanity. Somehow they managed to make Alicent look older than the actress is, and I don't know if that was because of make-up or just the way Olivia Cooke scrunches up her face. The scene between her and Helaena was very interesting--she clearly loves her, but there's a (literal) distance between them.

As for Larys, the actor was excellent, but the character feels so different from before and we don't really know what happened. Larys was always shown hanging with his brother and passing secrets to him, but now Larys is happy to murder his whole family? And did that last bit about Alicent owing him a favor sound like a sexual innuendo to anyone else?

But rejoice, my friends: they cut the foot fetish scene!

 

Edited September 26, 2022 by The Bard of Banefort

[IFR]

32 minutes ago, sifth said:

So the show is just ignoring Ser. Joffrey's brutal death at the wedding. They're not even mentioning why Ser. Criston Cole wasn't arrested for violating guest rights and murdering someone unarmed at a feast.

Yes, I figured this wouldn't be addressed, and it is a real annoyance. 

I'm glad with Harwin at least there were repercussions to his actions.

13 minutes ago, zajaz said:

I'm just having some trouble convincing myself that Emily Carey and Olivia Cooke are one and the same (in-universe, that is), even considering that around 10 years have passed, with lots of conflicts in between.

It's perfectly believable for me. She's lived a sad life of isolation, and experience has taught her to mistrust. This is in addition to being married an old, sickly man from a young age.

I can see her cynicism growing over 10 years. Furthermore, Rhaenyra has made it clear, in Alicent's eyes at least, that she is ambitious, selfish and impulsive, and could easily become ruthless to any opposition.

Olivia Cooke's Alicent honestly seems like a fairly natural transition from Carey's Alicent.

[TormundsWoman]

1 hour ago, RumHam said:

Good to see that in the intervening years the kingsguard trained on how to stop one dude from pummeling another to death. 

Hilarious because true. However I agree with MarkAntony. Can’t really address it with a 10 yr jump without looking hamfisted. Was Harwin supposed to say: hey guys, good to see you know how to intervene when a fight breaks out, any reason why you didn’t do it 10 yrs ago at Rhaenyra’s wedding?!

29 minutes ago, RumHam said:

*I'm starting to think that the writers of the show and I are not going to agree on any of the ambiguous bits from the book. 

You have 5 book choices: fire accident, Daemon (a classic by now), the SeaSnake, Larys and the King. Which one you lean towards?

I was frankly shocked they didn’t put it on show Daemon, but it would have been overkill considering he has to murder another soon, I suppose. And for the same reason. 

I personally incline to think Book Viserys, to make sure there’s no more mention of the “Strongs”. He probably only meant for Harwin to die, but Lyonel’s trip to Harrenhal was not known to the king apparently, so it was collateral damage.
 

My book suspicion has now been cemented by the fact show Larys uses the hot pincers to remove the tongues, which is exactly what book Viserys said he’ll do if he ever hears his grandsons called like that. Weird, right?! Lol

Edited September 26, 2022 by TormundsWoman

[Winterfell is Burning]

9 minutes ago, zajaz said:

So, re-watching the episode again. Acting is top-notch and it was overall quite good... save for fricking Alicent. Don't get me wrong (I don't mean to sound whinny), I'm not questioning Olivia Cooke Alicent, quite the opossite, in fact. She's playing her exactly how I imagined book Alicent to be (5 out of 5 stars)... but I can't see anything at first glance that makes me go: "Yeah, that's Emily Carey grown up, alright".

Why did the writers decided to have Alicent being around the same age as Rhaenyra, with this almost Sansa-like vulnerability to her, I will never understand. More drama? Sure, that could have worked for me if we had spent some more time with her, seeing her become this bitter woman. With such a drastic time jump, though...

I'm just having some trouble convincing myself that Emily Carey and Olivia Cooke are one and the same (in-universe, that is), even considering that around 10 years have passed, with lots of conflicts in between.

You know what? On a re-watch I might try to start the series on this episode.

Who knows? It might help to keep some backstory from episodes 1-5 vague (just like F&B).

It's pretty simple really: not only, as I pointed out multiple times, this idea that Alicent was an evil seductress scheming and seducing her way to the top for pure greed and evilness was clearly not what GRRM wrote  (the narrators might seemingly portray this idea, but GRRM just repeating the type of ancient historians that would depict literally every woman with agency or ambition that way), it just makes bad TV for her to not only be a monster, but one that starts that way.

So, people that bought into this idea of "Blacks=HEROES Greens=EVIL" are confused, while people who are not see it as it is: she was pushed by her father to a marriage to a man she didn't love, resulting in children that whose very existence can be a casus belli because of either having an excellent claim to the Iron Throne/having the best claim (depending on your POV), since Viserys insists Rhaenyra is the heir, despite the fact he only became king because the lords wouldn't tolerate a woman as monarch (whether Viseys is right to insist or not or whether Rhaenyra would be a good queen or not doesn't matter for this).

To top that off, her father is dismissed as Hand, leaving her alone in court, and worse (the last part only in the show, but still) that happens in no small part because she sticks by Rhaenyra, who is then revealed to be manipulating her, despite Alicent for years trying to mend the relationship.

Anyone would be at least a little bitter.

7 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

.

It's only been one episode, but I found adult Rhaenyra much more likable than her younger counterpart. Despite her reckless decisions, she came across as the most sensible person in the room, and she was also the only person to mention the toll of war during the council meeting.

As for Larys, the actor was excellent, but the character feels so different from before and we don't really know what happened. Larys was always shown hanging with his brother and passing secrets to him, but now Larys is happy to murder his whole family? And did that last bit about Alicent owing him a favor sound like a sexual innuendo to anyone else?

 

 

I agree entirely about Rhaenyra.

As for Larys, he's clearly a psychopath, and now he gets an inconvenience out of the way (his brother having 3 sons with the Princess, which could very well lead to him be caught in the crossfire if shit goes down) and he's now the Lord of Harrenhaal and one of the richest men in the realm.

 

 

[RumHam]

The casting for this show has been really incredible. 

8 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Aegon jacking off, completely naked, out a window is worse than any dumb cock joke we got from D&D.

I just don't understand what they were going for there. Exhibitionism? A sexual attraction to architecture? And that his mom didn't even address it. 

Hey they didn't even mention Daeron or how many kids Alicent had did they? Weird. 

1 minute ago, TormundsWoman said:

I did incline to think Book Viserys to be honest, to make sure there’s no more mention of the “strongs” and he only meant Harwin but Lyonel’s trip along to Harrenhal was not known to the king apparently. My book suspicion has now been cemented by the fact show Larys uses the hot pincers to remove the tongues which basically is exactly what book Viserys said he’ll do if he ever hears his grandsons called like that. Weird, right?! Lol

Yup, agree completely. As soon as Lyonel told the king he was going I was like "uh oh." I said this in the last thread but I think the timing is very telling. Larys could have killed his father and brother to inherit at any point. Viserys had a reason to kill Harwin at that moment. Two reasons really, keeping him quiet and because he "dishonored" his daughter. 

I'm curious if/how they'll rectify show Larys's seeming devotion to Alicent with him playing both sides later on. 

[RumHam]

1 minute ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

So, people that bought into this idea of "Blacks=HEROES Greens=EVIL" are confused

Do people really think of it like that though? For me it's "the blacks' cause is just, greens are usurping against the previous king's expressed wishes." and then individual characters get judged on being good or evil, and hopefully are some mix of both. 

 

[Rockroi]

Lets get to this: the Permier of House of The Dragon, Season 1.5 … 

What I liked:

The Princesses of Fire and Blood: The major theme this week was the almost Herculean willpower of the women of this season -  Rhaenyra dragging herself bloody to face the Queen;  Laena choosing death by way of a dragon than bleeding and screaming.  This was the story of how the will oif these people is based on, well, Fire and Blood.  The scene with Rhaenyra was especially incredible – the walk to the Quuen, the afterbirth, the struggle and the blood; she knows she is leaving the realm to bastards; she knows she ruining the realm with her “arrangements;” but she, as they say, persists… 

This episode was an amazing counterpoint to the start of season 1.0; we see the struggle of birth and still, even with a heathy mother and child, we see the trouble the realm is in- two houses with two dragons growing stronger and more at each other’s throat.  These women- and now to include the Queen – know what is going on and how it impacts them and how much they are willing to fight for their family and children.  Fire and blood. 
And best line of the episode: “Keep trying, Laenor.  Eventually one of them will look like you.”  

(Small peeve – Rhaenyra has given birth to TWO kids before this one.  …. so she knows she has some afterbirth coming… so why is she getting ready BEFORE that?). 

A King Emeritus: Viserys’ devolution continues unabated; he is growing weaker and frailer while also growing more desperate to hold his dragon/family together.  Watching him grinning watching his grandchildren spar in the yard shows how he is still trying, as was his joy in the marriage prospect of his grandchildren.  And yet its all turning to dust.  His house-lines are growing further and further apart; he can’t stop it and he dreads it.  He is denying reality (though completely in character).  And he is falling apart and the rats are out.  So to speak. 

If You (Need To) Look Back, You Are Lost: I want to give a shout-out to the show-runners for delivering so much content in such a short period of time.  I am also starting to think the “ten-year gap” is paying off.  This show fills so much in every scene.  This show makes every hour so chalk-full with info, feeling, relationships, character development and heart that you cannot take your eyes off this thing.  If you do… you are lost. 

Strong Characters: I liked all the Strong characters; Larys Strong is the new Littlefinger and he still has so much potential.  He is devious, brutal and effective.  A real “player.”  But I liked his father who was, to the end, a very smart, dedicated, and extremely effective Hand; and his brother who was an honorable and fair man (right up to the end…).  Wanted to give this a quick credit to this line of amazing characters. 

What I am on the Fence About:

So.. Yeah… Pentose: Yeah.. I don’t think I care too much about this part of the story.  Yes, I get that its Daemon and he probably shits cool, but he mostly sat around complaining and brooding.  He was unusually passive and I thought he was supposed to be an active character.  So, I was a little peeved when I saw that he seemed to have a good relationship with his Wife… only to find out he does not like her very much.  And he does not seem to like his own kids.  

And he didn’t seem too broken up by this.  I mean, he sees her going outside…  She’s got a kid in her… was he like:

Daemon: (Watches his Wife get out of bed, bleeding and limping outside…)
Doctor: My Lord…
Daemon: Hmm?  
Doctor: My Lord… your wife.
Daemon: Who now?
Doctor: My Lord!  Your pregnant Wife!
(Laena clearly walks past them)
Daemon: Excuse me love, don’t let me get in your way. 
Doctor: My Lord!!!!  She’s … she is walking out of the room!
Daemon: (clearly not paying attention, yelling at Laena) No, darling; Vaghar is outside to the Left!  No, darling, your other Left!  There you go… 
Doctor: She… she shouldn’t be outside!  
Daemon: I mean, fresh air may do her good.
Doctor: No!  She could collapse!  Or… 
Daemon: Okay… ah (gently speaking down the empty hallway) No, please… stop… don’t go…outside… to youre dragon
Doctor: Do you think she is going to fly?
Daemon: (to anyone within earshot) Hey, does anyone here know if my wife speaks Valyrian?  Does she know how to light herself on fire?  I should go outside and make sure… I MEAN… make sure she doesn’t… light herself on fire… slowly… 

How did she get that far outside?  Without anyone catching up.  Really?  Yeah… no.  But I am cool with it because I was unimpressed with this end of the story.  Nothing good was coming from it. 

A Queen Is Not a Sailor: I did not like Rhaenrya's decision to leave for Dragonstone.  I think that while the show did a fantastic job showing how much a pressure-cooker KL is with the Princess giving birth to children that are CLEARLY not her husband's, I get the feeling that leaving KL to the Queen puts her in a far weaker position with the levers of power, the King and with vast resources.  I feel like the Princess would know that,

Window Ejections and Call Backs: The scene with Aegon in the window.  Was that a call-back to Tommen?  Because if it was, I feel like the show is sort of slapping GoT in the face.  Which, if true... I knda like bc the show jumped the shark at that point.

What I did Not Like:
Its Not the Dirty Dozen: I get it.  You have to have a quick double homicide.  You get what you can get.  Three, guys-  a murderer, a deviant and a traitor.  Okay… And you want them to do it fast and without any issues.  So you slice out their tongues. 

Now… explain to me when they, somehow, developed the skills of subterfuge, camouflage, cunning, diplomacy and all the other skills it would take to 1) get outside the castle, 2) gain entry unseen, 3) coordinate their plans, 5) know their way around the entire castle, 5) set a fire that would burn well enough and long enough to kill two men; 6) make sure both men remained asleep and locked in their rooms without any means of escape, and then 7) escape themselves.  And do all of this without anyone seeing them at any point.

And this from a deviant, a murderer and traitor?  What skills do they possess to get this done?  None.  

So, no.  Did not buy it for one instant.

And shows do this all the time.  Breaking Bad had random White Supremacists pull off a sextuple homicide coordinated in multiple locations without so much as a hitch.  Because yeah… that would happen.  Same thing here; not every criminal is a good one; not all crimes are the same and not all criminals are capable enough to be  part of Seal Team Six.  Garbage.  

So far, the time-gap methodology of telling this story has worked.  And its great to experience. 

[TormundsWoman]

11 minutes ago, RumHam said:

I'm curious if/how they'll rectify show Larys's seeming devotion to Alicent with him playing both sides later on. 

I think the way Larys is played, so creepy and manipulative, and the fact scriptwise he is portrayed as willing to sacrifice his own fam for a later favor from someone on who he to bets on, allows for a lot of latitude. Writers could very organically write him in a “hedging his bets” situation, playing both sides. It would make sense.

[Corvinus85]

8 minutes ago, Rockroi said:

And he didn’t seem too broken up by this.  I mean, he sees her going outside…  She’s got a kid in her… was he like:

Daemon: (Watches his Wife get out of bed, bleeding and limping outside…)
Doctor: My Lord…
Daemon: Hmm?  
Doctor: My Lord… your wife.
Daemon: Who now?
Doctor: My Lord!  Your pregnant Wife!
(Laena clearly walks past them)
Daemon: Excuse me love, don’t let me get in your way. 
Doctor: My Lord!!!!  She’s … she is walking out of the room!
Daemon: (clearly not paying attention, yelling at Laena) No, darling; Vaghar is outside to the Left!  No, darling, your other Left!  There you go… 
Doctor: She… she shouldn’t be outside!  
Daemon: I mean, fresh air may do her good.
Doctor: No!  She could collapse!  Or… 
Daemon: Okay… ah (gently speaking down the empty hallway) No, please… stop… don’t go…outside… to youre dragon
Doctor: Do you think she is going to fly?
Daemon: (to anyone within earshot) Hey, does anyone here know if my wife speaks Valyrian?  Does she know how to light herself on fire?  I should go outside and make sure… I MEAN… make sure she doesn’t… light herself on fire… slowly… 

I was under the impression that Daemon did the opposite of Viserys, as the parallel of HotD 1.5 with HotD 1.0 was clear here. Daemon chose to let his wife live by having the physician kill the baby in her. Her bloody state as she stumbles outside and looking less inflated indicated this. But that was not Laena's wish.

Edited September 26, 2022 by Corvinus85

[briantw]

9 minutes ago, TormundsWoman said:

I think the way Larys is played, so creepy and manipulative, and the fact scriptwise he is portrayed as willing to sacrifice his own fam for a later favor from someone on who he to bets on, allows for a lot of latitude. Writers could very organically write him in a “hedging his bets” situation, playing both sides. It would make sense.

It's almost as if you shouldn't trust someone who is willing to kill his own family for a promotion. 

[Rockroi]

7 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

I was under the impression that Daemon did the opposite of Viserys, as the parallel of HotD 1.5 with HotD 1.0 was clear here. Daemon chose to let his wife live by having the physician kill the baby in her. Her bloody state as she stumbles outside and looking less inflated indicated this. But that was not Laena's wish.

I think much of this is true, but I also felt that Daemon took way too long to get outside.  Either he should go to try to stop her or go to support her.  Instead he is sort of stumbling outside at the end and he sort of seems like he he is doing half of both.  I'm not on the fence about her; I'm on the fence with how poorly the scene was done overall.  

[Zorral]

Wish to congratulate how well the actor playing Larys Strong channels John Malkovich playing clubfooted Talleyrand in Napoleon (2002)-- "a turd inside a silk stocking," Napoleon called him in many a favorite history -- throwing him out -- after which the emperor recalls him later, and after that too, Talleyrand emerges as a Real Player at the Congress of Vienna.

[Daeron the Daring]

You can't make Rhaenyra's and Laena's friendship too short if their friendship is non-existent.

Smart.

Edited September 26, 2022 by Daeron the Daring

[Corvinus85]

A solid episode though the immense time jump didn’t do any favors to the ending of the previous episode which unfortunately remains abrupt and ridiculous. However, for the main characters themselves, the time jump wasn’t so bad. It helped to have the episode start with a raunchy birth scene to introduce Emma Darcy’s Rhaenyra, who does a superb job of acting, complemented by some excellent camera work.

The time jump works well for the Harwin is the father plot. Sure, we could have had an additional episode where this was setup, but all the visual ques are there and well used. I liked that they never had to say it outright.

I also believe that the time jump works suitably well for the extreme change in Alicent. Relationships between her and Rhaenyra clearly become frosty by the end of the previous episode. Their relationship’s evolution is logical given the decade long time passage. They never reconciled, Rhaenyra kept making non-Targaryen/Velaryon looking babies, which continues to drive what Alicent starts believing at the end of episode 5 – that Rhaenyra is untrustworthy, and her father’s words may come true. Olivia Cooke also does a great job.

Where the time skip works the least is the Daemon-Laena relationship. From some quick words at a feast to married with two kids and living in Pentos. And I do wish we would have gotten more time with grown-up Laena; another great, but short lived character. Daemon continues to be aloof, struggling to find himself. He seemed to want to be a sellsword with a dragon, but at the same time apparently, he’s obsessed with the legacy of the Valryian dragonlords. If this was the writers’ intent, to make Daemon completely unreadable in all aspects of his character, well they’ve succeeded. And not sure how I feel about Laena’s death scene, other than Daemon was once again weird in it, but the birthing scene was a great parallel to Viserys’s decision regarding Aemma.

They had some good continuity with GoT here regarding Pentos. Like Illyrio Mopatis in GoT, the Prince of Pentos is played by someone who has a similar British accent. This is one time I wish they had redconned things and gone with a foreign sounding actor. The primary language in Pentos is a bastard dialect of Valyrian, so anyone speaking the common Westerosi should speak it with a different accent.

Good on them for making Laenor into more a warrior character than the book implied.

The Strongs were another, ahem, strong part of the episode, from the conniving and ruthless Larys to the confident and surprisingly caring Harwin. It certainly made his death hit harder, and I’m curious how the non-readers would have reacted to it. But the time jump once again leaves some things unexplained regarding this apparent close relationship between Alicent and Larys.

I wish they had found a smaller actor for Aegon because he looked ridiculous fighting Jace. You would think at his age he should pit himself against squires of his age, or even knights. Instead, he fights a kid half his size. But the actor is good, and I laughed at his Homelander moment.

If the show found the time to mention Ser Ryam Redwyne’s death back in episode 2, surely, they could have spared a line for Grand Maester Mellos. We see that Orwyle is now on the small council. Was Graham McTavish in this episode? I don’t think I spotted Ser Harold, but did we get a shot of Ser Arryk/Erryk?

Why is Alicent on the council? Rhaenyra should be there as heir apparent, but the queen shouldn’t be. This seems to be a clear Alicent/Cersei parallel.

More dragons, yay. Vhagar was massive and I liked her old apperance.

Edited September 26, 2022 by Corvinus85

[Ser Not Appearing]

I thought the masturbation scene was both character for Aegon (term it what you want but it undermines him in the eyes of the viewer) and an add-in to the contrast of Allicent blaming the prank on the other boys, not Aegon, but then telling Larys she wouldn't be blind to her own sons like Viserys is to his daughter ... Aegon is a fuckup in the making in multiple ways and she literally ignores it.

[Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe]

Aegon the II. The Mad Masturbator.

So Aegon just gets completely nude, brazenly stands in a window,  and jerks off over the threshold to the sight of pigeons and the sound of bells?
What about any poor peasants passing underneath his window?  
His mom is totally cool with him throwing seed to pigeons like this? Like this is just a regular thing he does?   
It happens so often she doesn’t even comment on it. Kinda hard not to comment when he’s naked. 
ha!

Flying pig and no Suggs reference? bah!
 

 

Edited September 26, 2022 by Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Chad Vader said:

Alicents clearly in power which is not what I got at all from Georges story. She only became a major power after Viserys died. I dont hate it but I am partial to the reverence Targ Kings are usually always shown. 

Alicent controls the entire castle when Viserys dies and she ensures the old man to recall Otto. She is in charge.

How it happened in the show is another matter. That's a problem with the time jump.

2 hours ago, zajaz said:

Also, just as a feared, I think the writers made a mistake in casting Emily Carey and having her play Alicent as almost Sansa-like; I found it somewhat hard to convince myself that Olivia Cooke was supposed to be playing the same character.

Alicent has become an asshole at that point ... and we don't really know why. Was no attempt at reconciliation made after the wedding? What escalated things to this ugly point?

I mean, we know that this is what coming, but considering that they had five episodes to build up the Blacks and the Greens and wasted them basically on their friendship it is very odd indeed that they reach this point.

That she is that obsessed with basically pushing Aegon into wanting to be king is quite horrible (so far he isn't that much of an ass) but the worst thing she does is giving Aegon leave to bully Aemond privately. That's like Maekar urging on Aerion to castrate Egg.

It is a great buildup thing, though - now you want Aemond to train at arms, you want him to claim Vhagar, and you want him to take Aegon's crown, ascend the Iron Throne, and put his mother into her place. We see here how Aemond's own ambition begins, why he ends up making the decisions he does. His crueler acts might be directed both against Rhaenyra and company as well as against his own elders.

2 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Alicent has apparently internalized that Rhaenyra's children are scum and her children are the true heirs, which fits what she'll say later about their deaths.

Alicent goes along with the silly and disgusting idea that bastards are born evil and should thus not be favored by the gods. The idea that the dragons and the blood of the dragon care about Westerosi marriage rites is something that apparently never crossed her mind.

That would also be the reason why she rejected Jace-Helaena, although politically this was nonsense. Even if there was a coup, the pair and their children could have diffused the tension.

Really sad to see Viserys state and how much he is under her thumb. He should have arranged the match against her will. And they should have tried to pair Luke or little Joff with some Hightower girl. It is also quite surprising to see Alicent on the Small Council. Why was she included there? Just because she is Viserys' chief nurse now?

Also, if Viserys watches the boys train he should also have done something.

Laenor shows great wisdom when asking the question why the hell they would go to Dragonstone. Unfortunately Rhaenyra doesn't give a wise answer.

2 hours ago, RumHam said:

He's killing it, and is so skeevy that I might even be ok with the foot thing. There was a moment where she joined him for dinner and took of her shoes and he said "I started without you" and I was like "oh no..."

I'm sorry they cut it after I promised you it would come, but it seems to have been there. When they cut away from the dinner it seems likely they are not done yet.

Good to see Larys as Lord Confessor down in the dungeons ... although hiring such thugs for a murder at Harrenhal feels like nonsense. The castle is his home, and if he is as smart as they want him to be he would have put agents who would be willing and capable of doing this long ago.

2 hours ago, RumHam said:

By the way since Laena claimed Vhaegar at 15 that kills the "they cut a scene of her claiming him during Alicent and Visery's wedding" idea. 

Yes, that's definitely off the table now. It seems this would have happened shortly after Rhaenyra's wedding. She is twelve in episode 2, so easily enough still 15 in episode 5 when Aegon is three.

2 hours ago, RumHam said:

Edit: I also meant to say it sucks that Harwin really only got to be a character for one episode. Did he even have a line before this? 

Very few. There is clearly potential there for flashbacks if they want to do some. People really seem to want to see more of Milly and Emily. What they should do is deal further with the Criston Cole nonsense after the wedding and explain why the hell Laenor and Rhaenyra didn't produce an heir (and how and why the Harwin thing started).

Really liked Laena's attitude - great that she is ambitious and pushes Daemon to return to Westeros and her desire for grandeur. This is what I wanted Rhaenys to have last episode, but it is good to see Laena had it. Her death by dragon is fine in context of her desiring to go out like a dragonrider (she should have said dragonlord there). It is also nice to see the first glimpse of what I call 'pointless Daemon' - the guy who will eventually throw away his life to kill a one-eyed asshole.

It also seems clear now that he truly murdered Rhea to claim Rhaenyra ... and it didn't work. She is the woman he wants, and if one had to guess not because of power and the throne, but because it is what the Targaryens do. They marry their own and make more dragonlords. Laena was just the next best thing, although they seemed to be happy enough. Daemon ignoring Rhaena because her egg never hatched seems very in-character for him. We have to wait and see whether Viserys is treated equally later on.

Really would have liked it if Viserys hadn't given his horse story but rather brought up his mother's mismatched eyes - a trait that (to our knowledge) didn't show up in the inbred Targaryen bloodline before and later only with Shiera Seastar and, possibly, Tyrion. Alternatively, he could have also brought up Laenor's Baratheon ancestors - the boys do have dark/blackish hair, not brown hair, so it could just be the Baratheon blood.

Playing up the bastard thing as this huge issue is a little bit too much. It isn't, they could deal with that. If push came to shove Viserys could even legitimize the boys. And since Laenor is still there the idea that Alicent or anyone could just push through a scenario where the boys are declared bastards doesn't work. They are his sons, he acknowledged them, so what should people do? Tell the heir of Driftmark and a dragonrider of royal blood that his children aren't his?

Criston Cole finally starts to be a real ass. Now he starts to be the guy I liked to compare to Littlefinger. He will *never* suffer Rhaenyra on the throne, and most definitely not her brood of bastards.

[C.T. Phipps]

2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

 

I may have to take back what I said about HOTD not going for shock value. Aegon jacking off, completely naked, out a window is worse than any dumb cock joke we got from D&D.

Weirdly, I loved it.

It establishes very clearly Aegon is utterly unworthy of the throne and only a lunatic would want him on the throne or a power mad viper.