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[Spoilers] Episode 106 Discussion


Ran
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Aegon the Mad Masturbator

What if every time teenage Aegon starts Masturbating Alicent storms in slapping him and screaming,

“Usurp your half-sister and kill your nephews! :slap:”

”You will marry your sister! and Momma’s  gonna watch. :slap:”

“A king gets to finish! :slap:” 

 

Edited by Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe
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4 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

One note about OTG is the fact that he was differentiated from other Gods from the fact his vengeance was on the wicked.

Which was a major improvement over gods who did, LOL because.

I’ve always thought the boys who mocked Elijah for being bald, and got mauled by she-bears, had it coming.

You do *not* take the piss out of middle aged men who are losing their hair.

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Another very variable episode with some great parts and others that do not work as well.

Good things:

  • The introduction of the younger generation was great. From Aegon's masturbation scene (which I liked), him joining the Strong boys into ridiculing Aemond, Luce asking if Ser Harwin was his father, Helaena's obsession with bugs... they did wonders with little screentime.
  • They've done a great work with the casting. All the new additions are great.
  • Loved Viserys' self-denial. ("lads that traind together will certainly develop a lifelong bond" :D)
  • I admire how they keep introducing many of the players that will fight in the Dance: Alicent wanting to allow Lord Bracken's land-grab with the Princess kinda siding with the Blackwoods, lord Caswell being on court and on good terms with Rhaenyra,...

Things I didn't like:

  • Why they feel the need to make everyone miserable? Those should have been years of happiness for Rhaenyra and Laenor, and for Daemon and Laena. It would work better for the story. The protoblacks should be carelessly enjoying their lives, while a frustrated Alicent works to gain the control of the court.
  • The time jump worked fairly well for King's Landing, but it didn't for Daemon&Co. No clue as to why Laena married Daemon, how Laena claimed Vhagar, how did their daughters got dragon eggs, why is Daemon favoring Baela over Rhaena, and most of all, how has Daemon evolved from the psychopath that murdered his wife. I would never have had Daemon murdering Rhea, but if that had to be, I would have done my best to show now how his marriage with Laena has changed him. I feel Daemon is one of the characters worst served in the tv adapatiton.
  • The other being Larys. When you have someone orchestrate the murder of his entire family, one that you have previously shown that were in great terms, you should provide some justification.
  • The episode's opening is great, and Emma D'arcy delivers a great performance, but it would have been more in Rhaenyra's character to ignore the queen's summon for at least a few hours. It'ts not as if she would have suffered any consequences.
  • The make-up department has done a good work in showing the aging of most of the characters (bald Lyonel was a great surprise), but I feel they went a bit too far with Viserys. He looks far more frail than how he is scripted and played.
  • I disliked the look of both Pentos and Harrenhal. Neither of them looked much like the previous versions that we had seen in Game of Thrones.  Also, Harrenhal is small and not besides a lake, while Pentos has more the vibes of a provincial town than a thriving metropolis.
  • It's good that they keep updating the family tree from the credits as the story progresses but this new version is even more convoluted and confusing than the previous one. The map from GoT was very helpful to non-book viewers. This doesn't help anyone. Even pausing the video and with full knowledge of all the familiar relationships, I have a hard time desciphering whatever they try to depict.

Random thoughts:

  • Why would Maegor build the Dragonpit as if it was an stadium, with benches for thousands of spectators? Are they doing some kind of dragon games?

 

Edited by The hairy bear
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4 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I’ve always thought the boys who mocked Elijah for being bald, and got mauled by she-bears, had it coming.

You do *not* take the piss out of middle aged men who are losing their hair.

Oh his prophets were dicks.

Even God knew that.

Jonah and the Whale often misses the part of the story where it goes like this:

God: I want you to preach to this town so I don't need to destroy it.

Jonah: No, fuck those guys.

Okay, diversion done.

:)

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HOUSE OF THE DRAGON 1x06 "THE PRINCESS AND THE QUEEN" is basically a reboot of the entire House of the Dragon series, which is an odd thing to happen in the fifth episode of the season. Here, we have a massive decade-long time skip, a change of a substantial portion of the cast's actors, and a focus on setting up the new status quo. It feels like they could have made an entire season out of the first five episodes or skipped them entirely.

I've complained earlier about the show's issues with time and it's not something that has gotten any better but something I hope we're at least past the worst of. There's too many important character beats and events that need to be followed up on. Just last week, we had Ser Criston Cole beat to death a guest at the royal wedding and it's not even mentioned in this episode. That's because it took place ten years earlier but it still is something that should have been mentioned or, better yet, had a whole episode of follow up.

Anyway, the premise is that Rhaenyra has just given birth to another child that is suspiciously neither black nor white-haired. Their father is obviously not Laenor but Ser Harwin Strong, the city guard captain. As such, Alicent takes no small amount of pleasure in rubbing this fact in Rhaenyra's face. She truly believes her father's insane statement that Rhaenyra would murder her children so she's planning to murder hers first.

Fans of Fire and Blood will appreciate Alicent is no longer being treated as a sweet and kind girl done dirty. No, she's taken several levels in jerkass and is now someone who spends all of her time spitting Rhaenyra, Rhaenyra's children, and underming their position at court. It's much more similar to the character in the books but it will come as a great shock to those used to the show's portrayal of her.

Speaking of awful characters, we also see Ser Criston Cole has turned from a charming knight in shining armor to a vengeful bully that not only displays misogynist behavior toward Rhaenyra but also behaves as an absolute scumbag toward young children. I suspect he will rapidly become the anti-Jaime Lannister among fans and be someone the audience actively roots for dying.

Rhaenyra is a great deal more mature despite her questionable choice of making a paramour of a man with no resemblance to her husband. She has evolved into a person who could be a capable queen and effective leader but has already made dire enemies of both her stepmother plus a Kingsguardsman. Worse, she's still not overly fond of her husband and hasn't been making the kind of alliances she needs to with Alicent plotting to put her son on the throne.

I like the depiction of Aegon in the story as he's clearly an unhinged wild child who has no limits on his behavior. He's also a bully who enjoys tormenting his relations and should never be entrusted with power. The fact Alicent keeps trying to to turn him against his relatives (and it's working) shows how much of a duplicitous and awful person she's become. Also, the fact she has no interest in the greater good of the realm but only her own family's advancement.

The big villain of the piece seems to be Lord Larys Strong and his turn on his family is genuinely shocking. Unfortunately it lacks dramatic impact because we haven't gotten to know Lord Strong or their father very well. This is another element that shows how much the show has suffered for underdeveloping its characters outside the Targaryens. Also, I don't get Lord Larys' motives that go from 0-100 for evil in an instant.

In conclusion, the acting is strong in this one but so disconnected from the rest of the stories that we've experienced that it might as well be a new show. As such, I am really hoping we're done with the time skips as they've effectively killed a lot of my interest in the show. It's still fascinating and well-written but I feel like I'm on a roller coaster.

7/10

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5 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

 it wasn't violating guest rite because it's not Ser Criston Cole's house.

By that rule, Walder Frey wouldn't have violated guest right. Ser Criston was Viserys' man.

4 hours ago, Rockroi said:

Now… explain to me when they, somehow, developed the skills of subterfuge, camouflage, cunning, diplomacy and all the other skills it would take to 1) get outside the castle, 2) gain entry unseen, 3) coordinate their plans, 5) know their way around the entire castle, 5) set a fire that would burn well enough and long enough to kill two men; 6) make sure both men remained asleep and locked in their rooms without any means of escape, and then 7) escape themselves.  And do all of this without anyone seeing them at any point.

While I don't disagree with your point, a somewhat valid excuse would be claiming that they managed to do all that because they had the suport of Larys. He would be in a position of giving them posts at Harrenhal, giving them inside knowledge of how to access the private rooms and telling them how and when to start the fire.

1 hour ago, Ran said:

I feel like they've turned the Dragonkeepers into something of a religious cult who worship the dragons, and that at a certain stage senior members of the Dragonkeepers basically use Valyrian only as a sign of their devotion to dragons or something like that. He probably does speak Westerosi but refuses to do so for devotion-related reasons. 

Yeah that's the vibe I get too. But I don't think it's a very good change. It doesn't add anything to the story, and it almost seems that they only wanted to have another excuse to show how they've invented a language. Not cool.

Edited by The hairy bear
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4 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

Yeah that's the vibe I get too. But I don't think it's a very good change. It doesn't add anything to the story, and it almost seems that they only wanted to have another excuse to show how they've invented a language. Not cool.

I'm not strictly sure it adds nothing to the story. The Dragonkeepers have no explicit role in training princes how to command dragons in the text, after all -- they are guards and grooms, not teachers -- so that's something that's added to the story. 

I do think I'd have preferred them to not look like unwashed shepherds, though. Just because dragons are creatures of fire doens't mean you have to abjure water.

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39 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

By that rule, Walder Frey wouldn't have violated guest right. Ser Criston was Viserys' man.

Walder Frey was the one who ordered them to do it. The bannermen weren't the ones who carried out the attack, they were acting on his orders.

I note this because House Bolton didn't get treated with the same brush as the Freys despite their equal involvement in treason and regicide.

Because it wasn't their house.

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4 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

@C.T. Phipps

Of course. But the Red Keep was Viserys' house. If his man murders a guest under his roof and he fails to punish the agressor, accusating Viserys of violating the guest right is not that far off.

I really wish they had gone for something less openly-in-your-face with the murder. It's a castle, there are walls, people have "accidents"... It wouldn't have given Harwin that moment of carrying Rhaenyra off, but who thinks that really matters to their relationship? It would have made it so much more easy to accept. As it stands we basically have to use some mix of "super decadent court that doesn't really care about unjustifiable brutality" and "Alicent took his side", and it doesn't feel remotely satisfying.

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22 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

@C.T. Phipps

Of course. But the Red Keep was Viserys' house. If his man murders a guest under his roof and he fails to punish the agressor, accusating Viserys of violating the guest right is not that far off.

I think, until proven otherwise, Alicent convinces Ser Cole to claim that Joffrey threatened him with a knife or made some awful remarks about Rhaenyra and the Prince consort.

Which is justifiable.

Corys would, of course, not object as it eliminates an embarrassment.

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14 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Which is justifiable.

 

Except he disarmed him by breaking his wrist. He wasn't any danger beyond that point. He then proceeded to punch his face until he caved it in. No one can call that justified except in the "Decadent court doesn't care about brutal  violence".

If there had been a struggle and then Joffrey ended up "falling" on his own knife and dying in the course of it, that would plausibly be the result of a heroic and appropriate action by Cole with plausible deniability. His going savage against someone who was unarmed and then unconscious shifts the scale from doing his duty to wanton murder.

Joffrey wasn't some nobody. He's  the son of a noble house, the friend of the groom, and a guest of the groom's party. This is not the sort of thing that should have been hand-waved. I think their instinct to gory violence got the better of them this time.

Edited by Ran
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5 minutes ago, Ran said:

Except he disarmed him by breaking his wrist. He wasn't any danger beyond that point. He then proceeded to punch his face until he caved it in. No one can call that justified except in the "Decadent court doesn't care about brutal  violence".

If there had been a struggle and then Joffrey ended up "falling" on his own knife and dying in the course of it, that would plausibly be the result of a heroic and appropriate action by Cole with plausible deniability. His going savage against someone who was unarmed and then unconscious shifts the scale from doing his duty to wanton murder.

Joffrey wasn't some nobody. He's  the son of a noble house, the friend of the groom, and a guest of the groom's party. This is not the sort of thing that should have been hand-waved. I think their instinct to gory violence got the better of them this time.

I mean it's not justifiable because he wasn't threatening any of them, he was just tralking to Cristen. I'm talking about how Alicent would get him out of it.

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1 minute ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I mean it's not justifiable because he wasn't threatening any of them, he was just tralking to Cristen. I'm talking about how Alicent would get him out of it.

I understand that but I'm questioning the scenario you're proposing. There are many witnesses to the order of events. Even realizing that in the chaos there'd be a dozen different accounts with people getting confused and others trying to curry favor, a maester would be able to see that shattered wrist and say, eh, he definitely was not holding a dagger before his head was repeatedly pounded into pulp.

Even if he threatened someone or said something gross, Ser Criston pulping his skull can't be explained as dutiful action by any means. He went absolutely bananas, which should have sparked a lot of concern and questions and probably some kind of consequence. Viserys doesn't want a Kingsguard knight who will go bananas at random.

 

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Provoking Harwin over being the boys’ father didn’t sit quite right with me. You would attack someone if it was a lie that was being used to besmirch their reputation, not if it was the truth. Just the way he said “say that again!” indicates that it’s an insult. Him attacking Criston is the opposite of a confession.

 

I hope we see Rhaenyra and the boys reacting to his death next episode. It would suck if they skipped over that too.

Edited by The Bard of Banefort
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3 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Provoking Harwin over being the boys’ father didn’t sit quite right with me. You would attack someone if it was a lie that was being used to besmirch their reputation, not if it was the truth. Just the way he said “say that again!” indicates that it’s an insult. Him attacking Criston is the opposite of a confession.

When I first watched that scene, I said out loud, "Criston's a mad man" or something to that effect. He's so crazy with his hatred of Rhaenyra that he pushed and pushed and seemed almost pleased by getting the hell beat out of him.

It's true that Harwin's reaction can very easily be construed as his defending his honor from a lie. But his father is also right that the tension caused by the rumors, true or not, are going to lead people to question whether he can serve in an impartial manner. 

Now, why Harwin didn't go from there to formally challenge Criston Cole for besmirching his good name, I don't exactly know. I suppose one can argue that the Kingsguard, being in service of the king, can't be challenged in duels of honor because their honor is the king's. But does this then mean that Harwin could claim that Viserys had allowed his own man to besmirch his honor, and was then party to it? You end up in an odd situation.

The book situation of course works a lot more neatly, but I can see why they shifted the order of events a bit to punch up this episode.

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this show is very good at getting just near where you think it could be a great  episode , just to bring it down in the last minutes! 

I loved how the children are established . I surprisingly liked Aemond and I felt for teenage Aegon when his mom walked in on him ... I mean he is definitely a bit of a bully , he mocks his brother , he pushes little Luke around and he is kidding no one when he fights 10 yr old Jace . but come on! these kids could be friends if not for Alicent and Criston Cole  :/ 

Rhaenyra and Laenor were also highlights for me . 

BUT some frustrating parts:

Laena's death sucked the most , however this time it was the concept that was terrible , instead of execution (which was the case in Joff's death) . I mean if they wanted so much to go for a "heroic death" , why didn't they have her claim her choice in the matter ?  Strongs death was also rushed . this week 3 major characters died and yet , it didn't feel like it. 

no episode felt to suffer from rushing through the plot like this one. like, what is up with Larys? ... the man is clearly obsessed with Alicent . but the problem is we haven't seen him slowly get obsessed over the episodes and we don't know how and when he stopped caring about his own family! Rhaenyra's transition was good , you still see young Rhaenyra underneath when she is in the council or when she smiles at lord Beesbury situation . but Alicent's isn't all that good. 

if they wanted to have pre-Dance in two seasons , having Alicent-Rhaenyra friendship was a good idea . that kinda thing needs a slow transition . Alicent seems to completely despise Rhaenyra by now . honestly it would have been better if they used teenage versions only for Rhaenyra and Velaryons and left Olivia Cooke as Alicent: a young woman who likes teenage Rhaenyra enough but she is not her best friend.  now I think with the structure they have chosen some of their ideas is over-ambitious , namely the girls' friendship , addressing child bride issue in form of 12 yr old Laena Velaryon ,and Larys. the lack of material in Strong household is frustrating . Laena-Daemon relationship is barely shown and I wonder if the casual viewer would ask about the son of Sealord the council was concerned about? 

 

ps. by the way , it's really funny how we discussed that book-Daemon might be a good father considering every one of his 7 children turn out great and here show-Daemon is even worse than Otto . so he leaves his wife's burned body there and takes his kids up on the roof where they can see it ? instead of you know.. protecting them from seeing such horror? 

 

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20 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

ps. by the way , it's really funny how we discussed that book-Daemon might be a good father considering every one of his 7 children turn out great and here show-Daemon is even worse than Otto . so he leaves his wife's burned body there and takes his kids up on the roof where they can see it ? instead of you know.. protecting them from seeing such horror?

What horror?

He's a Targaryen so their standards are a bit skewed.

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I thought they've handled the time skips well but this episode really suffered from it. 

Just way too much character development missed. They could have done much more with Harwin/Rhaenyra's relationship, explore the Strongs' dynamic as a family, Daemon marrying Laena, Laena finding and taming Vhagar and the implications of controlling Vhagar. The botched ending of episode 5 and laughable lack of fallout didn't help things either. The Cole/Joffrey nonsense has been the low point of the show by some way. 

It just really felt like moments would have hit harder had the Strong's and Laena been fleshed out some more. They really did just feel like pawns being sacrificed quickly just to get to the main plot - Which I realise is exactly what is happening and it is necessary to an extent but this time it felt rushed. Could have been another episode covering some time between the ten years. 

Edited by TeethGrinder
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