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[Spoilers] Episode 106 Discussion


Ran
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So, they've made Helaena a dreamer. She speaks of the eye Aemond will lose, and then of "the last ring has no legs at all." 

Is she talking about future Aemon? Or even about Bran?

Oh, and Larys killing his family is proabbly the first thing I've genuinely disliked about the show so far. It doesn't make any sense.

Edited by Ingelheim
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1 hour ago, MisbornHeir said:

I wonder if putting it up to the lords to begin with was folly on Jahaerys's part. It sets a precedent of an obligatory active role when the succession is in contest..

 When Jahaerys did that, there was a peaceful transition of power. When Viserys didn't, a civil war broke out and the Targaryens lost the dragons. Not too hard to see who was the smart guy.

 

53 minutes ago, frenin said:

Why should he? So long as he lived, Rhaenyra was the unquestioned heir and everyone in the Realm knew that.

The reason why Jaeharys called the Council was because both sides were openly preparing themselves to war. No such thing happens with Viserys. .

 

 

 

 

Heh...you might have missed that little event called Dance of the Dragons. Which only Viserys didn't know it could happen.

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Just now, Winterfell is Burning said:

Heh...you might have missed that little event called Dance of the Dragons. Which only Viserys didn't know it could happen.

None knew it would happen, well none but the Greens who tried and take the throne and even then they attempted to deescalate the situation before Aemond made it all but impossible.

Wars between different branches of a clan can always happen, it happened with Maegor, it could have happened between Jaeharys and his nieces and sisters or between his son and his granddaughter.

Having a large family and different branches means that internecine conflicts can always happen, too many dragons are as dangerous as too few and all that. It doesn't mean however that it is either likely or the default situation.

Could war happen and kinslaying happen with Rhaenyra's ascension? Sure, as it unlikely as it is there's always the possibility of it, was it that likely? Not by a longshot.

Had they tried to get along as Viserys wanted, the odds would have been even lower, alas Alicent indoctrinated her kids into hating Rhaenyra and her sons. 

 

 

30 minutes ago, Ingelheim said:

Oh, and Larys killing his family is proabbly the first thing I've genuinely disliked about the show so far. It doesn't make any sense.

This man went after his own nephews,  it doesn't really surprises that he killed his father and brother  to get Harrenhall.

Then again, Larys as a plot device is like Nymor's letter to again, just a tool to move forward the story.

 

@Ran

It is a weird direction, both that and calling the kids Targaryens and not Velaryon even before Jace took the throne, in the books the kids are sure and confident of their background, which meand that their circle kept the charade. I don't know what good it does to Jace knowing that he's a bastard, tt just gives him impostor syndrome.

 

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I gotta say I really dislike how the show has clearly taken sides when it comes to matter of the Stepstones. Stepstones lay on the route of important shipping routes, for sure. Dealing with pirates there is a matter of importance Corlys was right to bring to the table. It does not however border on the Realm as it exists in this time period, it borders on Dorne and Tyrosh. Tyrosh is basically in the Stepstones really. In the books establishing a kingdom there was portrayed as Daemon's folly that no one else really partakes in and even once he lets it go, everyone else does too. Sending armies to the Stepstones to make permanent fortifications would declare on everyone else that wants to use those shipping route too. But no one gets to make reasoned argument against this.

Edited by Denam_Pavel
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31 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

To be fair, he was one of the main suspects long before HotD was a thing. It was always either him or Daemon.

I always thought it was Daemon. But I meant it as in show canon, it doesn't make any sense, specially if you watch the Inside Episode.

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9 hours ago, slant said:

Now get what the mulvaleys flower signifies, it has nothing to do with Braavos at all, it is a reference to Alicent being out of place and far away from home.

 

 

I also got this feeling from the differences in their rooms, Alicent's looked like a guest room and Rhaenyra's looked like a home. 

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1 hour ago, Ingelheim said:

So, they've made Helaena a dreamer. She speaks of the eye Aemond will lose, and then of "the last ring has no legs at all." 

Is she talking about future Aemon? Or even about Bran?

Oh, and Larys killing his family is proabbly the first thing I've genuinely disliked about the show so far. It doesn't make any sense.

I think the bolded is just her describing the bug. It's divided into segments that I guess she's describing as rings. Bran's legs may not work, but he does have them. 

I'm curious how they'll handle this. Like they just ignored her random aside about Aemond needing to close an eye. But Viserys knows it runs in the family. So I wonder if they'll eventually figure out what's going on with her? or just write her off as a weirdo. 

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@frenin

You seem to have forgotten this part of F & B, which makes clear Jace, Luke, and Joff inherited their mother's dislike of the Hightower-Targaryens so its not as if Alicent was the only one unwilling to bury the hatchet:

"The sins of the fathers are oft visited on the sons, wise men have said; and so it is for the sins of mothers as well. The enmity between Queen Alicent and Princess Rhaenyra was passed on to their sons, and the queen’s three boys, the Princes Aegon, Aemond, and Daeron, grew to be bitter rivals of their Velaryon nephews, resentful of them for having stolen what they regarded as their birthright: the Iron Throne itself. Though all six boys attended the same feasts, balls, and revels, and sometimes trained together in the yard under the same master-at-arms and studied under the same maesters, this enforced closeness only served to feed their mutual mislike rather than binding them together as brothers."

Also, I like how they subtly imply Aegon (as described by GRRM to Amok) isn't very good warrior material when he begins panicking at Jace's aggression.

I really, really hope they don't cut Daeron.

And boy are they making Criston unlikable, which I'd appreciate more if there'd been a transitionary episode showing the fallout of Joffrey's murder as well as his transition from being guilt-ridden knight to all-around asshole. At least they're still depicting him as being competent in his line of work, which makes the inevitable idiot ball GRRM saddled him with in canon all the more unpleasant to anticipate. (Seriously, for a man so hyped up in ASOIAF as being great (in the sense that he was both the best and the worst of the Kingsguard) and controversial he doesn't really do anything on par with the likes of say Barristan Selmy or even Arthur Dayne, who at least slew the Smiling Knight, before dying in an incredibly anticlimatic and uncathartic way that leaves his relationship with Rhaenyra et al. completely unaddressed, let alone resolved.)

Edited by The Grey Wolf Strikes Back
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21 minutes ago, Ingelheim said:

I always thought it was Daemon. But I meant it as in show canon, it doesn't make any sense, specially if you watch the Inside Episode.

For the record, I wouldn't take anything that's being on Inside Episode seriously. People contradict each other all the time in those videos.

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2 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

@frenin

You seem to have forgotten this part of F & B, which makes clear Jace, Luke, and Joff inherited their mother's dislike of the Hightower-Targaryens so its not as if Alicent was the only one unwilling to bury the hatchet:

"The sins of the fathers are oft visited on the sons, wise men have said; and so it is for the sins of mothers as well. The enmity between Queen Alicent and Princess Rhaenyra was passed on to their sons, and the queen’s three boys, the Princes Aegon, Aemond, and Daeron, grew to be bitter rivals of their Velaryon nephews, resentful of them for having stolen what they regarded as their birthright: the Iron Throne itself. Though all six boys attended the same feasts, balls, and revels, and sometimes trained together in the yard under the same master-at-arms and studied under the same maesters, this enforced closeness only served to feed their mutual mislike rather than binding them together as brothers."

Also, I like how they subtly implied Aegon (as described by GRRM to Amok) isn't very good martial material when he begins panicking at Jace's aggression.

I really, really hope they don't cut Daeron.

And boy are they making Criston unlikable, which I'd appreciate more if there'd been a transitionary episode showing the fallout of Joffrey's murder as well as his transition from being guilt-ridden knight to all-around asshole. At least they're still depicting him as being competent in his line of work, which makes the inevitable idiot ball GRRM saddled him with in canon all the more unpleasant to anticipate. (Seriously, for a man so hyped up in ASOIAF as being great (in the sense that he was the best and the worst of the Kingsguard) and controversial he doesn't really do anything on par with the likes of say Barristan Selmy or even Arthur Dayne, who at least slew the Smiling Knight, before dying in an incredibly anticlimatic and uncathartic way that leaves his relationship with Rhaenyra et al. completely unaddressed, let alone resolved.)

To be fair Ser Criston Cole canon history ended up still more impressive then Ser Ryam Redwyne, a tourney knight who if he ever even went to war never did so without a bunch of dragons flying top cover.

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8 minutes ago, Denam_Pavel said:

To be fair Ser Criston Cole canon history ended up still more impressive then Ser Ryam Redwyne, a tourney knight who if he ever even went to war never did so without a bunch of dragons flying top cover.

Oh don't get me started on Ryam Redwyne. He was a major letdown in F & B. (Honestly, Ryam would have worked a lot better if GRRM had switched him with Gyles Morrigen, who comes out of nowhere to do things like slay a fellow Kingsguard in trial by combat and save the queen from assassins. That and he should have given us a reason why Ryam was replaced as Hand less than a year into the position. Maybe he caused a diplomatic crisis with the Free Cities or Dorne? Maybe he stepped into the Blackwood-Bracken feud and made it worse? Maybe he spent so much time in the training yard he ended up neglecting his duties as Hand? Seriously, if GRRM could write reams of material on Coryanne Wylde and the sex lives of Targaryen princesses (but never in the same detail Targaryen princes) he could have come up with a fun story for Ryam's dual fame-infamy the way he did with the Myrish Bloodbath leading to Aemon's death.)

The same holds true for Myles Smallwood, who in ASOIAF is also described as being one of the worst Hands ever but as presented in F & B his worst crime is simply giving the king bad advice.

(For the record, I disagree with the assessment that Otto Hightower was one of those big failures as Hand.)

Edited by The Grey Wolf Strikes Back
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1 hour ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

 When Jahaerys did that, there was a peaceful transition of power. When Viserys didn't, a civil war broke out and the Targaryens lost the dragons. Not too hard to see who was the smart guy.

Jahaerys sowed the seeds for the westerosi nobles to have a say in the succession matter. Before the first great council it was only ever between the targaryens themselves (and the faith until maegor smothered their concerns). 

 

If it wasn't for the council, the nobles under viserys wouldn't feel so emboldened to act and voice opinion on the matter of succession. A formal council legitimizes those opinions into institutionalized precedents.

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Just now, MisbornHeir said:

Jahaerys sowed the seeds for the westerosi nobles to have a say in the succession matter. Before the first great council it was only ever between the targaryens themselves (and the faith until maegor smothered their concerns). 

 

If it wasn't for the council, the nobles under viserys wouldn't feel so emboldened to act and voice opinion on the matter of succession. A formal council legitimizes those opinions into institutionalized precedents.

It's a better choice to just impose your female heir in a society that has disdain for women and hope for the best, which is what Viserys did. His method avoided a war of succession, Viserys' willful blindness didn't.

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15 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

For the record, I wouldn't take anything that's being on Inside Episode seriously. People contradict each other all the time in those videos.

They said basically that Larys didn't really care for Harrenhal and only did it to have the Queen on his debt forever, even if she didn't make him do it. He made her fall into his trap.

Which is dumb and stupid, she could easily tell Viserys and Larys would be beheaded in an instant.

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