[Spoilers] Episode 106 Discussion

[The Grey Wolf Strikes Back]

@MisbornHeir

What was the alternative? Daemon and Corlys were both amassing armies in support of Viserys and Laenor respectively. If Jaehaerys I had simply picked Viserys or Laenor there would have been no guarantee his decision would be accepted by the other side and if by some miracle he got Vaegon released from his vows there can be little doubt both sides would temporarily band together to remove him before then turning on each other. In other words, Jaehaerys I was really stuck between a rock and a hard place and the decision to call a GC was honestly the best that could be made. The blame for the Dance of the Dragons lies with Viserys I, who was dumb enough to remarry and sire sons after naming Rhaenyra his heir. Seriously, if he genuinely cared about his daughter's position, he would have just taken Alicent as a mistress. If even a king from the post-dragon era like Aegon IV could get noblewomen from houses like the Brackens, Blackwoods, and Vaiths into his bed I have no doubt Viserys I could do the same should Alicent refuse. Hell, if Trystane Truefyre was truly Viserys I's bastard son (or if the rumors about Alicent sharing Viserys I's bed while he was still married to Aemma were true) then Viserys I clearly had no qualms about sleeping around.

Edited September 26, 2022 by The Grey Wolf Strikes Back

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

23 minutes ago, Ingelheim said:

They said basically that Larys didn't really care for Harrenhal and only did it to have the Queen on his debt forever, even if she didn't make him do it.

Yeah it's really weird. But again, it wouldn't be first time the showrunners said some weird stuff.

Edited September 26, 2022 by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy

[EggBlue]

1 hour ago, frenin said:

 

@Ran

It is a weird direction, both that and calling the kids Targaryens and not Velaryon even before Jace took the throne, in the books the kids are sure and confident of their background, which meand that their circle kept the charade. I don't know what good it does to Jace knowing that he's a bastard, tt just gives him impostor syndrome.

 

giving Aemma and Rhaenys silver hair was the mistake . in the book , grandmothers' ancestry could play a huge role in the fact that people like Eustace and the boys themselves believe Velaryon parentage . 

 

@The Grey Wolf Strikes Back Jaeherys put himself in that situation when he named Baelon heir . Rhaenys was by all Westerosi standards a grown woman and a capable one .

Edited September 26, 2022 by EggBlue

[Winterfell is Burning]

8 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

 

 

@The Grey Wolf Strikes Back Jaeherys put himself in that situation when he named Baelon heir . Rhaenys was by all Westerosi standards a grown woman and a capable one .

Jaeherys wouldn't have done it if he didn't had doubts about a woman being accepted as Queen by Westerosi society in the first place.

[The Grey Wolf Strikes Back]

@EggBlue

I was specifically addressing the situation in 101 AC.

As for the situation in 92 AC while Rhaenys was indeed an adult Jaehaerys I would have had no way of knowing her capabilities at that time. She was only 18 and pregnant with her first child to boot. Baelon was already a war veteran with two healthy adult male heirs who may or may not have also served his father in some official capacity. (I'm extrapolating from the fact Aemon served as Master of Laws for his father.) While I don't agree with Jaehaerys I's decision I can certainly understand the reasoning behind it.

[frenin]

1 hour ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

You seem to have forgotten this part of F & B, which makes clear Jace, Luke, and Joff inherited their mother's dislike of the Hightower-Targaryens so its not as if Alicent was the only one unwilling to bury the hatchet:

I did not, what it says is that all the children inherited their mothers rivalry, then we're given a pretty clear reason why... If you become my bitter rival because you wany¡t my place, i sure as hell will grow to hate you too.

Btw, no, Viserys is not at fault for siring more chldren. All Kings should strive for an heir and a spare and as things stood, Rhaenyra's spare was Daemon. This is a medieval setting, Rhaenyra or her children could have died in a thousand different times, leaving the succesion back  in square one. Having more children was not a frivolity, it was imperative to guarantee the succesion. 

 

And for all his faults, Viserys, much like Jaeharys with Baelon, had made his decision claear and everyone on the Realm knew where the succesion stood. 

 

 

@Winterfell is Burning

Quote

Jaeherys wouldn't have done it if he didn't had doubts about a woman being accepted as Queen by Westerosi society in the first place.

Eh, more like his doubts about whether Rhaenys would capable, both as a ruler and as well, let's say it, a woman ruling.

Jaeharys or his council don'treally mention that he has doubts that her granddaughter won't be accepted by society, especially because if Baelon didn't press his claim and supported Rhaenys... What are they gonna do?

He also wanted Viserys to succeed him ahead of Rhaenys and her line, Jaeharys more than any king represented Westerosi society, so if society didn't accept her, well neither did he.

 

 

@EggBlue

 

Quote

giving Aemma and Rhaenys silver hair was the mistake . in the book , grandmothers' ancestry could play a huge role in the fact that people like Eustace and the boys themselves believe Velaryon parentage . 

Sure but in this case... it would have been as simple as not having their mother all but admit they are bastards... Like what's the purpose of that? Jace is heir to the throne, i does him no good knowing he's actually a fraud and a usurper.

 

 

 

Edited September 26, 2022 by frenin

[C.T. Phipps]

43 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Yeah it's really weird. But again, it wouldn't be first time the showrunners said some weird stuff.

Eh, to be fair, Littlefinger didn't care about Harrenhal as well.

Because it's an enormous ruin.

Edited September 26, 2022 by C.T. Phipps

[EggBlue]

8 minutes ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

Jaeherys wouldn't have done it if he didn't had doubts about a woman being accepted as Queen by Westerosi society in the first place.

what makes you so sure that Westeros society of 92 wouldn't have accepted a woman? they were used to Rhaenys and Visenya . then both Maegor and Jaeherys named Aerea as heir (with zero objection) . and then Alyssane became a hugely influential and popular queen consort who could make it easier to accept a ruling queen . not that Westerosi society had much to say in the matter at that point in history . they were crushed by Aegon and his sisters , Maegor and Jaeherys's propaganda and dragon show off and thus the king's word was law at that point.

13 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

@EggBlue

I was specifically addressing the situation in 101 AC.

As for the situation in 92 AC while Rhaenys was indeed an adult Jaehaerys I would have had no way of knowing her capabilities at that time. She was only 18 and pregnant with her first child to boot. Baelon was already a war veteran with two healthy adult male heirs who may or may not have also served his father in some official capacity. (I'm extrapolating from the fact Aemon served as Master of Laws for his father.) While I don't agree with Jaehaerys I's decision I can certainly understand the reasoning behind it.

I understand you were addressing 101 but in the end of the day it was Jaeherys himself to put himself in 101 situation where there were no good answers . 

in 92 , while it's somewhat understandable with your logic , I think Jaeherys was a sexist from the beginning which is clear in how he treats his daughters . this problem could go back to how he viewed his mother ( a weak woman who had given in to Rogar ) and his older sister ( a mad woman ) . while his acceptance of Alyssane's counsel seems to mostly stem from his love for her  , an exception.  Baelon was a grown man but unlike Aemon , he was not trained to rule and despite the small age difference never sat in the small council before becoming heir . so there is no indication that he had any merit besides flying his dragon and torching ships . meanwhile , Rhaenys was his father's only child and it was all but guaranteed that she would succeed him. one would imagine the able prince of Dragonstone had put some effort in teaching her the job . in her wedding , Rhaenys shows the same care for perception and show of power as her grandfather as she decides to put up a huge affair and fly her dragon for all the attendants to see. and as far as Baelon's experience against Rhaenys's goes , she had Corlys to more than make up  for it !

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

15 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Eh, to be fair, Littlefinger didn't care about Harrenhal as well.

Because it's an enormous ruin.

But murdering his own family just to have queen in his debt is a bit... much? 

Edited September 26, 2022 by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy

[C.T. Phipps]

14 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

But murdering his own family just to have queen in his debt is a bit... much? 

Depends how much you like your family.

He now has her under his thrall rather than just debt.

[Ran]

14 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

But murdering his own family just to have queen in his debt is a bit... much? 

He's an amoral sociopath with no real family feeling.

Well, he'll get his. No man is so accursed as the kinslayer.

[RumHam]

Was there any indication Lord Beesbury was having trouble keeping up with what was going on in the books? I don't remember any and am curious why they took a second to establish that. 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

5 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Was there any indication Lord Beesbury was having trouble keeping up with what was going on in the books? I don't remember any and am curious why they took a second to establish that. 

Wait, they had Lord Beesbury reading ASOIAF?

[TormundsWoman]

11 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Wait, they had Lord Beesbury reading ASOIAF?

Hahaha Omg this is beyond hilarious! So meta! No wonder he’s the real first casualty of the Dance. He totally knew who’s in the right and how’s everything supposed to go and he wasn’t going to take it anymore! 
 

Ps probably took a look at the hour of the wolf ending with Cregan Stark threatening Justice for any wrong done and said: fuck it, I’m not staying here to hear you traitors stealing her throne…

[Colonel Green]

2 hours ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

Oh don't get me started on Ryam Redwyne. He was a major letdown in F & B. (Honestly, Ryam would have worked a lot better if GRRM had switched him with Gyles Morrigen, who comes out of nowhere to do things like slay a fellow Kingsguard in trial by combat and save the queen from assassins. That and he should have given us a reason why Ryam was replaced as Hand less than a year into the position. Maybe he caused a diplomatic crisis with the Free Cities or Dorne? Maybe he stepped into the Blackwood-Bracken feud and made it worse? Maybe he spent so much time in the training yard he ended up neglecting his duties as Hand? Seriously, if GRRM could write reams of material on Coryanne Wylde and the sex lives of Targaryen princesses (but never in the same detail Targaryen princes) he could have come up with a fun story for Ryam's dual fame-infamy the way he did with the Myrish Bloodbath leading to Aemon's death.)

The same holds true for Myles Smallwood, who in ASOIAF is also described as being one of the worst Hands ever but as presented in F & B his worst crime is simply giving the king bad advice.

(For the record, I disagree with the assessment that Otto Hightower was one of those big failures as Hand.)

It’s only Maester Pylos who claims those guys are considered major failures as Hand, while trying to spin a history lesson for Davos.

Based on the actual histories, Smallwood was a perfectly adequate Hand. Redwyne was probably out of his depth as a peacetime administrator, but no great harm to the realm came of this.

Hightower, though, has a good case to be the very worst Hand, as more than anyone his actions caused the Dance.

[The Bard of Banefort]

Larys’ speech about children being their parents’ downfall sounded like a justification to me—he was blaming the boys for Harwin’s death in order to deflect the blame from itself. It would be interesting if they went the Macbeth route and had Larys slowly be consumed by guilt over time.

Did his line that “I am sure you will reward me when the time is right” sound like a sexual innuendo to anyone else?

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

Show Viserys is worse than book Viserys. Both versions wanted a happy, unified family. But show Viserys should also be ruling with Aegon's ASoIaF prophecy in mind and thus always strive to make the best decision for Westeros.

A consequence of the way they handled the time jump. Young Aegon should have been the new cupbearer of the king and the council, and possibly even been an informal member of the council ... not just because Alicent wanted him to rule (and the way things stand in episode 6 she could have just commanded Viserys to allow him on the council, as she forbid him to marry her daughter to one of Rhaenyra's bastards) but also because Aegon was the spare heir. Should Rhaenyra die early he would be next in line (Rhaenyra's sons might easily be passed over in such a scenarion where you have adult prince vs. preteen princeling).

In addition, Viserys and Rhaenyra should have also not objected to prevent another Daemon or Maegor situation - the next eldest heir of the king should be as close to the heir as Baelon was to Aemon.

After the royal hunt we should have gotten another episode where people tried to work with Aegon, include him in the tedious business of ruling and governance ... until something happened that dissuaded them from doing this. The boy could have been lazy or stupid or obnoxious, there could have been some scheming to make him look bad, Viserys could have lost his temper with him, etc.

In any case, the final decision as to why Rhaenyra remained the heir should have been his conclusion that Aegon would simply not make a good king, could not be trusted with the prophecy. Passing over the Conqueror-babe was one thing, but had Aegon turned out to be Jaehaerys come again and/or Viserys' new favorite for some reason things would have changed.

I think up to a point we do have get a small answer to this since Alicent clearly doesn't much believe in prophecy and magic stuff - remember her looks in episode 3 when she listens to Viserys' talk about dreams and stuff. He could have concluded that Alicent's children wouldn't be up to the task of dealing with this stuff because their mother would undermine any serious belief in prophecy Viserys might instill in them.

[Ser Yorick Ampersand]

So they are just brushing off Ser Crispin murdering the future King's best friend and boyfriend in the day of a Royal Wedding. No arrest, no punishment, just move along, nothing to see here, acts with no consequences.
This is not Westeros for sure.

 

Meanwhile Harwin beats up a known murderer and is immediately expelled from his position. Logic.

Edited September 27, 2022 by Ser Yorick Ampersand

[StarksInTheNorth]

@Ran now that we're all caught up with you, can you please confirm who you meant when you said the following:

• "we think there’s maybe a risk that this particular character will come off in a too-positive light compared to Fire and Blood’s duelling accounts, and consequently place her opposite number in too-negative a light for some in the audience. We’ll have to say how that plays out."
• "Not all the changes can be explained as purely a matter of getting the material translated to the screen, of course, and one in particular regarding a male character feels so oddly unnecessary that we wonder if there were external reasons for the change (i.e. the writers did it for fear of criticism, because of something similar Game of Thrones did with one of its secondary characters)."

And also, if you don't mind extrapolating, what details of the history of the Targaryens have been adjusted to minimize the knock-on effect of the Velaryons being black? I haven't been able to notice anything, afaik.

 

 

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, RumHam said:

Was there any indication Lord Beesbury was having trouble keeping up with what was going on in the books? I don't remember any and am curious why they took a second to establish that. 

I think Beesbury is slowly turning deaf. He didn't hear what was said, but it is not that his wits started to wander (although if that was the case then they could turn the Green Council into a comedy, having him insist that Archmaester Vaegon is the rightful heir the entire time).

50 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

It’s only Maester Pylos who claims those guys are considered major failures as Hand, while trying to spin a history lesson for Davos.

It is also not clear why the hell Maegor supposedly was a bad Hand aside from the fact that he was dismissed and exiled for bigamy.

50 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

Based on the actual histories, Smallwood was a perfectly adequate Hand. Redwyne was probably out of his depth as a peacetime administrator, but no great harm to the realm came of this.

No, you have to go back and read the book more carefully. Smallwood always gives bad or problematic advise, right up to commands like severely punishing Queen Rhaena. Most of his talk isn't something Jaehaerys I needs to hear at this council, because it is stuff he has already thought about and dismissed as stupidity before Smallwood opened his mouth. Or stuff he would never even consider.

A Hand can only be a big failure if he steps in for an incapacitated or absent king. When the king is there and actually running the government, the Hand does offer advice and manages whatever the king doesn't persoanlly oversee at court. Both Smallwood and Redwyne likely were mostly incapable of giving Jaehaerys what he wanted. But neither would have caused a crisis to be considered bad.

50 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

Hightower, though, has a good case to be the very worst Hand, as more than anyone his actions caused the Dance.

Yes, although as I asked George himself on his NAB a couple of years back ... it is quite odd to have Otto Hightower as a bad Hand considering he served two peace-and-plenty kings. He may have helped to cause or even orchestrated a succession war, but that doesn't necessarily undo all the good he did during the decades of his long service (although we didn't yet know at that the time that Viserys dismissed and reinstated Otto as Hand).

But one can certainly say that his stint in office under Aegon II wasn't exactly a success.