[Spoilers] Episode 106 Discussion

[RumHam]

1 minute ago, Ran said:

I'm going to assume that George means that if they produce any material showing the Targaryen dynasty going forward, references about things in the future in the DVD extras, etc., that they should include Jaehaerys II rather than dropping him.

Makes sense. I wouldn't expect them to release future family trees anytime soon, it'd be a spoiler..

Which reminds me my mom mentioned she'd started rewatching GoT between episodes. I warned her to stop before that little shit jeoffry spoiled HotD for her. I think Shireen later tells the basics of the story at one point too.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

47 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Also it's Jason, not Tyland who dies. Poor Tyland arguably suffers a worse fate. I wouldn't mind if they toned that down a bit to say just blinding him. 

I'm kind of looking forward to the development of Tyland Lannister. He's one of the characters that makes me hope they keep going after the dance and into Aegon III's regency. The actor they have playing the Lannister brothers is perfect too. 5 or 6 seasons from now, grizzled, twisted and veiled his relationship with Aegon III as his Hand could be some compelling TV.

[RumHam]

1 minute ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

I'm kind of looking forward to the development of Tyland Lannister. He's one of the characters that makes me hope they keep going after the dance and into Aegon III's regency. The actor they have playing the Lannister brothers is perfect too. 5 or 6 seasons from now, grizzled, twisted and veiled his relationship with Aegon III as his Hand could be some compelling TV.

I really hope they do continue it for a condensed version of the regency. Unlikely, but this could be one time a network pressuring to keep a show on past it's natural end point would be good thing.

[Zorral]

Funny how there were varieties of magical whatevers in Got, dire wolves, witchfire cultists, and all sorts of stuff, but only dragons in HotD. This whole thing feels random. Especially as there is no end point, unlike defeat of zombies and eternal winter or something.  All there is is a buncha spoiled power hungry aristos quarreling about who gets to sit on a toxic throne, none of whom are generally any better than the other -- though as things are standing after this episode, I'm in Rhaenyra's corner -- as far as that goes.  But still, she's one of Them.  What we small folk need are a pox on both their houses, pitchforks and tumbrels!  

 

[EggBlue]

2 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Funny how there were varieties of magical whatevers in Got, dire wolves, witchfire cultists, and all sorts of stuff, but only dragons in HotD. This whole thing feels random. Especially as there is no end point, unlike defeat of zombies and eternal winter or something.  All there is is a buncha spoiled power hungry aristos quarreling about who gets to sit on a toxic throne, none of whom are generally any better than the other -- though as things are standing after this episode, I'm in Rhaenyra's corner -- as far as that goes.  But still, she's one of Them.  What we small folk need are a pox on both their houses, pitchforks and tumbrels!  

 

you should be an Aegon III fan , my friend. that guy's policy was full bellies and dancing bears!

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

2 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Funny how there were varieties of magical whatevers in Got, dire wolves, witchfire cultists, and all sorts of stuff, but only dragons in HotD.

That's because the focus of the show is on KL and the Targaryens.

[RumHam]

11 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Funny how there were varieties of magical whatevers in Got, dire wolves, witchfire cultists, and all sorts of stuff, but only dragons in HotD. This whole thing feels random. Especially as there is no end point, unlike defeat of zombies and eternal winter or something.  All there is is a buncha spoiled power hungry aristos quarreling about who gets to sit on a toxic throne, none of whom are generally any better than the other -- though as things are standing after this episode, I'm in Rhaenyra's corner -- as far as that goes.  But still, she's one of Them.  What we small folk need are a pox on both their houses, pitchforks and tumbrels!  

 

It's funny because magic supposedly died out with the dragons. So magic should be more of a thing during this period. 

[The Bard of Banefort]

As interesting as the Blackfyre Rebellions are, I think it would spoil DnE a bit if they made a separate series about it.

[Lord Varys]

27 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

with any other two houses , Alicent's advice is actually pretty decent . but it's Blackwoods and Brackens and their liege is weak Tully of pre-Dance . we explicitly know that Tullys become more powerful in Riverrun after the Dance (thanks to Kermit) and Blackwood/Bracken feud is known among us . Rhaenyra's advice to directly investigate the case is a great idea, long term.

If the Crown has to deal with stuff that has been outsourced to the lords paramount then what are the lords paramount for?

I'm not saying it is bad that the Crown takes an interest - and Rhaenyra's suggestion there is the best advice possible, taking the thing out of the hands of the lords and to the smallfolk of the region who know where the hell the actual border goes - but it isn't a bad idea to push for the local lord paramount to settle this issue (or his heir).

30 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

Alicent's beef with the bastardy of Rhaenyra's sons may not be sympathetic to everyone but it is certainly understandable from an in-setting perspective.

Is it? When the king himself and Laenor Velaryon are completely fine with it? It doesn't really concern her, personally.

30 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

If Rhaenyra wasn't a bad ruler how do you explain Marston Waters, Broome, and the Two Toms getting almost everyone on Dragonstone to switch sides?

Because it is made pretty clear that Dragonstone's garrison was pretty much down to cravens and scum Rhaenyra did not trust to accompany her to take KL and fight her war. Her choice of Quince as castellan bit her in the ass, but going with Broom would have been a mistake, too. The reason why folks joined Aegon II and his buddies there was because of Sunfyre's presence there.

30 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

Lol. Say that to Pedro the Cruel or Arthur, Duke of Brittany or John the Fearless or William Rufus or Donald III to name just a few counter-examples to your assertion. Hell, William I and Henry II faced multiple outright rebellions from their sons on top of William I's sons fighting each other after his death and John I scheming against Richard I. Oh, and there's the deposition/murder of Edward II as well as Richard II. Almost as if people WEREN'T hesitant to off their kin if it meant securing their own power.

There were wars and such and pretenders and rebels were also killed, but you don't get the kind of 'preemptive killing' of potential pretenders that was suggested above. If that was a thing Maegor would have killed all of Aenys' sons as soon as he usurped the throne since they were a real potential danger to him. But even he only turned against Aegon and Viserys after he was provoked/they were becoming a real problem. We also don't expect Egg to murder Aerion's Maegor nor is it surprising that Jaehaerys/Viserys let the Velaryons live after the Great Council.

[Sand11751]

The show has done something I never expected; make the youthful Alicent Hightower sympathetic. I've been Team Black since reading F&B, so it was surprising. But the more I think about, and perhaps when I do the season re-watch, I can better understand the thing that puzzles the most: how has Alicent been harmed so far by Rhaenyra's lies? Alicent's got this self-righteous bent about her. After having done everything expected of her, I assume she's jealous because Rhaenyra flouts her kids and breaks the rules. She certainly hasn't been the Realm's Delight, but her behavior doesn't rise to the level that explains why Alicent refused to consider a reconciliation, ala Jace and Helaena's marriage. It actually makes the Dance even sadder and more destructive because up to this point, there seems to have been a way to avoid it.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

8 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

As interesting as the Blackfyre Rebellions are, I think it would spoil DnE a bit if they made a separate series about it.

Possibly, but they could write the one with the other in mind. Actually replacing a lot of exposition in D&E about the Blackfyre Rebellions with an actual history from another show which the audience remembers and the characters could reference in conversations and such could help keep things going at a decent pace. There would be an interesting space to play with the whole unreliable narrator thing when we see characters refer to events that we've already seen but describe them in a very different light. The thrust of the two shows would be very different as well with the HotD focus on KL and the dynastic Targ politics and D&E being a deliberate contrast to that focused on two characters on the road and their decidedly pettier company and settings.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

1 minute ago, Sand11751 said:

The show has done something I never expected; make the youthful Alicent Hightower sympathetic. I've been Team Black since reading F&B, so it was surprising. But the more I think about, and perhaps when I do the season re-watch, I can better understand the thing that puzzles the most: how has Alicent been harmed so far by Rhaenyra's lies? Alicent's got this self-righteous bent about her. After having done everything expected of her, I assume she's jealous because Rhaenyra flouts her kids and breaks the rules. She certainly hasn't been the Realm's Delight, but her behavior doesn't rise to the level that explains why Alicent refused to consider a reconciliation, ala Jace and Helaena's marriage. It actually makes the Dance even sadder and more destructive because up to this point, there seems to have been a way to avoid it.

I think Alicent is terribly jealous of Rhaenyra and the freedom that she manages to wrestle for herself.  Viserys is an amusing guy and all of that but he's physically not what most maidens are known for dreaming about (Sansa never waxed about dripping lesions on he future husband's back iirc). Contrast that with R's tryst with Criston and then the not at all secret romance with Harwin and I can see why Alicent sees herself as somehow a prisoner when she's supposed to be queen and Rhaenyra as shirking a family duty that Alicent was never given a chance to consider whether or not she wanted a part in.  Throw in her father's version of the succession and then all of a sudden R isn't just some wanton slut that happens to be heir to the throne but she's a thief who has demonstrated herself to be unworthy of the inheritance she stole. Whether we agree or not, I think it's also pretty fair to say that Otto's version of events once R takes the throne with regards to Alicent's heirs is not at all unlikely whether the R we and Alicent know wants to someday kill them or not. Anyway I think in her view that accepting the proposal to marry Jace to Helena would be akin to covering R's lie for her and sacrificing her own family's birthright to do so. I don't have a problem with her for seeing that as asking too much.

[RumHam]

As people have said the problem with just doing one of the Blackfyre rebellions is you run the risk of being too repetitive if it feels like all that happens in Westeros is civil war. I can imagine the advertising people trying to sell "Game of Thrones again, but without the dragons this time!" 

I think a show mostly about the life of Aegon the unworthy continuing past his death through the first rebellion could be good. It'd be neat to see a younger Viserys on this show and then a much older one later. 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

1 minute ago, RumHam said:

As people have said the problem with just doing one of the Blackfyre rebellions is you run the risk of being too repetitive if it feels like all that happens in Westeros is civil war. I can imagine the advertising people trying to sell "Game of Thrones again, but without the dragons this time!" 

I think a show mostly about the life of Aegon the unworthy continuing past his death through the first rebellion could be good. It'd be neat to see a younger Viserys on this show and then a much older one later. 

Whatever the next show will be, it definitely shouldn't involve any fighting for the throne.

[Colonel Green]

30 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Is it? When the king himself and Laenor Velaryon are completely fine with it? It doesn't really concern her, personally.

Yes, it is. Bastards are considered inherently sinful and lesser in the culture of Westeros, as are the women who bear them. Beyond that it does concern Alicent because it is her children who are being deprived of their birthright, as tradition and the letter of the law would have it.

We the audience don’t share these ideals, but it’s an entirely plausible mindset in-universe. It’s just that with Alicent, unlike Eddard Stark, GRRM didn’t stack the deck in her favour by making Jacaerys a complete psychopath.

[frenin]

6 hours ago, Denam_Pavel said:

Someone that stands to lose their legitimate place in succession to someone he lost an eye too and has the biggest dragon by several orders of magnitude is indeed a bigger problem then any example you gave. Expect maybe Daemon, but that's why they DID do stuff about him, however ineffectually. No one was nonchalant about the Daemon problem.

One dragon, however big is not going to do much against a pack of them. Rhaenyra doesn't have plenty of reasons Aemond isn't going to suffer her sons on the Throne.

Aemond himself asks whether he should bent to Rhaenyra or Aegon is King

 

And the latter part... I just didn't understand it.

 

 

5 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

to help out her friend Sara who may have been left with Jace's child

I'm sorry but Sara Snow didn't actually exist in the books.

 

[The Grey Wolf Strikes Back]

The succession does concern Alicent seeing as she's the queen. Bastards have no rights of succession unless acknowledged and legitimized. The king can be in denial as much as he wants but as Lord Strong so aptly puts it "people have eyes". And no, legitimizing them after the fact wouldn't work because not only would that be a slap in the face to House Velaryon but it would also tarnish Rhaenyra's image by making her out to be a flagrant adulterer and in her own words in F & B that would be "tantamount to treason". Plus, there's the fact that if she were to somehow legitimize the Strong boys that just sets up an even bigger civil war down the line seeing as in addition to the Hightower-Targaryens you'll have people arguing Daemon's sons should have inherited ahead of Jace, Luke, and Joff seing as they were legitimate from the start and their father a royal prince, which trumps the heir to Harrenhal any day of the week.

Westeros isn't just inspired by medieval England and France though. And we do have at least one canon example in the form of Urrathon IV (Badbrother).

Beyond that, let's not kid ourselves that Daemon was a genuine threat, whether he sat the throne himself or merely whispered in Rhaenyra's ear. Setting aside the fact he was latter willing to hire assassins to kill an innocent child (who was also related to him!) the dude was named a suspect in the murder of Laenor Velaryon + the death of Lyonel Strong and Ser Harwin Strong, had a pastime of deflowering virgins, deliberately goaded the wastrel son of the Sealord into a one-sided duel to have Laena for himself, started a war of conquest he then abandoned (along with the men who had made him king!) on a whim (as in he grew bored), mocked his newborn nephew's death the day after, possibly groomed or had sex with his underage niece, and tried to steal Runestone's inheritance after the death of Rhea (who, to add insult to injury, he didn't give two f*cks about) since nowhere in canon have use rights for a widow/widower been established.

Seriously, if I lived in Daemon's time I wouldn't want him anywhere near the throne. GRRM can go on and on about how Daemon is a bad boy who was made of both light and darkness and beloved as well as reviled but as the Darkstar debacle shows what the text says does not always match the image in the author's head or their intention, which is indeed the case here because any objective assessment of Daemon Targaryen would conclude the man was both a monster and a jerk.

Oh, and half his advice during the Dance was complete horseshit.

Edited September 27, 2022 by The Grey Wolf Strikes Back

[frenin]

9 minutes ago, RumHam said:

if it feels like all that happens in Westeros is civil war

All that happens in Westeros is civil war.

 

[The Grey Wolf Strikes Back]

5 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

Yes, it is. Bastards are considered inherently sinful and lesser in the culture of Westeros, as are the women who bear them. Beyond that it does concern Alicent because it is her children who are being deprived of their birthright, as tradition and the letter of the law would have it.

We the audience don’t share these ideals, but it’s an entirely plausible mindset in-universe. It’s just that with Alicent, unlike Eddard Stark, GRRM didn’t stack the deck in her favour by making Jacaerys a complete psychopath.

This.

[DMC]

1 hour ago, RumHam said:

I think Shireen later tells the basics of the story at one point too.

It's just about the last thing she does!