[Spoilers] Episode 106 Discussion

[Denam_Pavel]

6 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

But unlike Stannis, Alicent has no proof.

Oh come on. If Alicent doesn't have any proof then neither does Stannis. Joffrey, Tommen en Myrcella just look like the person everyone including Stannis agrees is their mother. The Strong boys don't like their mother, any of their grandparents, nearly none of their greatparents if not none at all and don't even a share ethnicity with their father anymore. You really have to personally want them to be Leanor's to believe it like Viserys. If Alicent doesn't have leg to stand on then it is insane that Jon, Ned and Stannis ever even bothered.

[EggBlue]

6 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

In the books, Laenor is a jerk. Joffrey was killed on accident at a tourney. Things like that happen. Like I can imagine his desire to not want to share a room or a bed with Rhaenyra....but they didn't even live on the same island, much less in the same castle. I imagine that castles like Dragonstone are so big and well-supplied that you can effectively avoid a person's company indefinitely. He didn't even do anything important for the administration of the towns or castles on Driftmark. It seems to me that he just lounged around on Driftmark and only showed up every now and again...and only because his parents forced him to. With Laenor being a pain in the ass on Driftmark and Alicent undermining her at court in the Red Keep, the book version of Rhaenyra clearly was desperate.

In the TV show, the situation between them very different. The distance would be justified because Joffrey was beaten to death at their wedding feast and the man who did it got away with murder. Literally. Yet, they live together and they get along pretty well. Both in private and in public. Not only that TV-Laenor has had some sexual experience with women...enough for Corlys to talk about it being only a phase and enough for Laenor to dolefully express that he's tried. TV-Laenor is also not sexually impotent like Book-Laenor is implied to be. By that I mean, TV-Laenor actually strikes me as more energetic and virile (aka a "top") versus Book-Laenor who was giving more feminine, bottom vibes. So what the hell is the problem? Just pull a Margaery and make it a threesome. Or have Laenor masturbate on his own time and use the ejaculate for yourself. I don't know. Forgive how graphic I'm getting but the whole Rhaenyra-Laenor situation in the TV show looks absolutely insane and I (mostly) blame Rhaenyra.

for all we know they had sex a dozen times or so over the years and ,heck , it  might be that even she hadn't known the parentage before they were born! but in any case , it's not like she could predict they will all turn out to be mini-Harwins! all Alicent's children have silver hair! 

[SeanF]

35 minutes ago, Denam_Pavel said:

Oh come on. If Alicent doesn't have any proof then neither does Stannis. Joffrey, Tommen en Myrcella just look like the person everyone including Stannis agrees is their mother. The Strong boys don't like their mother, any of their grandparents, nearly none of their greatparents if not none at all and don't even a share ethnicity with their father anymore. You really have to personally want them to be Leanor's to believe it like Viserys. If Alicent doesn't have leg to stand on then it is insane that Jon, Ned and Stannis ever even bothered.

If a father acknowledges the children as his, that’s the end of the matter.

Robert would have been so enraged at being made a cuckold, he’d have killed Cersei’s children.  Laenor was unbothered.

[Denam_Pavel]

1 minute ago, SeanF said:

If a father acknowledges the children as his, that’s the end of the matter.

Robert would have been so enraged at being made a cuckold, he’d have killed Cersei’s children.  Laenor was unbothered.

Robert and Cersei definitely have had sex. Stannis cannot give an account of when which act of adultery with Jaime happened. The proof that his claim to the throne over all three kids stems from is in their features and the Baratheon seed being so strong. Ned never tells Robert, who claims Joffrey as his heir. But Ned still feels he as Regent, Hand of King and Protector has authority to declare Joffrey a bastard.

[SeanF]

2 minutes ago, Denam_Pavel said:

Robert and Cersei definitely have had sex. Stannis cannot give an account of when which act of adultery with Jaime happened. The proof that his claim to the throne over all three kids stems from is in their features and the Baratheon seed being so strong. Ned never tells Robert, who claims Joffrey as his heir. But Ned still feels he as Regent, Hand of King and Protector has authority to declare Joffrey a bastard.

He feels obliged to tell Robert.  It would still be Robert’s decision whether or not to proclaim them as bastards.

 

[Denam_Pavel]

1 minute ago, SeanF said:

He feels obliged to tell Robert.  It would still be Robert’s decision whether or not to proclaim them as bastards.

 

And then he doesn't, and Robert dies and Ned still feels it is his business.

[Stenkarazine]

The arguments deployed in this thread about the Strong bastards not being that big of a deal are really not holding any water. Most are based on - selective - ignorance of the setting (not only Medieval Europe, but also Westeros proper), or absurd legalese ("the king implicitly legitimated the bastards by turning a blind eye so it is all good").

It feels that these arguments stem from, either a desire to wash the Blacks from all responsibility and put the entire blame on the Greens, or a desire to shoehorn modern sensibilities in a medieval setting.

But this is partly the show's fault: there is no ambiguity whatsoever about the parentage of the princes, the bastardy is portrayed as an open secret that everyone knows but nobody cares about except Alicent because she is stuck-up and nasty or whatever. 

This is of course designed to appeal to modern audiences who naturally do not see where the problem is. But this is entirely unrealistic for Westeros. 

If really the illegitimate birth of the three princes was so obvious to the Court, this should be portrayed as a looming crisis, a source of endless mockery in the common people, a cause of disaffection for would-be Black supporters, and a massive problem coming up for Rhaenyra as soon as Viserys (who is willing to go along with the charade) bites the dust. This would actually explain nicely her decision to leave for Dragonstone. 

 

 

 

Edited September 28, 2022 by Stenkarazine

[TeethGrinder]

On 9/26/2022 at 4:58 PM, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Yeah, the problem isn't where the show started, but the number of episodes it has. Too much is happening off-screen.

I thought it had been handled fairly well until this week. Really felt like we'd skipped an episode or two. 

In their defence - It's a difficult story to adapt timeline wise - So much happens at certain times and too little at others. 

[C.T. Phipps]

6 minutes ago, Stenkarazine said:

The arguments deployed in this thread about the Strong bastards not being that big of a deal are really not holding any water. Most are based on - selective - ignorance of the setting (not only Medieval Europe, but also Westeros proper), or absurd legalese ("the king implicitly legitimated the bastards by turning a blind eye so it is all good").

It feels that these arguments stem from, either a desire to wash the Blacks from all responsibility and put the entire blame on the Greens, or a desire to shoehorn modern sensibilities in a medieval setting.

But this is partly the show's fault: there is no ambiguity whatsoever about the parentage of the princes, the bastardy is portrayed as an open secret that everyone knows but nobody cares about except Alicent because she is stuck-up and nasty or whatever. 

This is of course designed to appeal to modern audiences who naturally do not see where the problem is. But this is entirely unrealistic for Westeros. 

If really the illegitimate birth of the three princes was so obvious to the Court, this should be portrayed as a looming crisis, a source of endless mockery in the common people, a cause of disaffection for would-be Black supporters, and a massive problem coming up for Rhaenyra as soon as Viserys (who is willing to go along with the charade) bites the dust. This would actually explain nicely her decision to leave for Dragonstone.

In fact, speaking in Medieval terms, it's actually NOT the issue that people think because bastards have been making claims on the throne of England since time memorial and people keep trying to act like they've never risen against true born sons with popular support. There's a reason John of Gaunt's children are some of the most important people of English history and that's because a King's legitimized bastards are usually some of the most important people in the country. We also know that in Westeros a good half of the nobility was willing to rise in the name of a legitimized bastard.

Catelyn Stark also thinks that a good chunk of the Northerners would support Jon Snow against his brother Rob if there was a problem, which is probably paranoia but they're following Jon over Bran by the time he's made King in the North.

Edited September 28, 2022 by C.T. Phipps

[Stenkarazine]

You are right, bastards can rise to greatness, but it remains highly exceptional that they are taken into account in the line of succession, unless there is no legitimate alternative. 

In any case I believe here the situation is quite different. A better parallel would be: how would people have reacted if Mathilda would have started to pop children who, rightly so or not, are widely rumoured to be the sons of a random knight rather than Plantagenet's ? 

I am not saying this invalidate her claim or whatever, certainly not, but it would be a source of considerable embarrassment. 

 

[C.T. Phipps]

Just now, Stenkarazine said:

You are right, bastards can rise to greatness, but it remains highly exceptional that they are taken into account in the line of succession, unless there is no legitimate alternative. 

In any case I believe here the situation is quite different. A better parallel would be: how would people have reacted if Mathilda would have started to pop children who, rightly so or not, are widely rumoured to be the sons of a random knight rather than Plantagenet's ? 

I am not saying this invalidate her claim or whatever, certainly not, but it would be a source of considerable embarrassment.

You're not wrong.

But we get to the point of the matter's crux that they are not bastards. There's nothing but the Queen's accusation with no evidence to it. "They don't look like their father" wouldn't fly today let alone in the Medieval era where genetics was believed to plant seeds in the soil of women and not mix their blood. It's going to and was treated as a spurious accusation by someone trying to forward their own claim, just like Stannis' claim of incest was with Renly.

Remember Renly CONGRATULATED Stannis on what he assumed was a lie that worked well because it was so outrageous that it got tongues wagging even if no one believed it. It was treated the same way the accusations that Henry VIII threw at Anne to get her executed.

People are applying modern standards of forsenics basically to suss out a crime as if adultery, illegitimacy, law, and guilt mattered here beyond the king's decree.

Which is quite clear on its decision.

Really, ALLICENT should have been banished to a sept or confined the moment she started making those accusations.

[Mark Antony]

33 minutes ago, TeethGrinder said:

I thought it had been handled fairly well until this week. Really felt like we'd skipped an episode or two. 

In their defence - It's a difficult story to adapt timeline wise - So much happens at certain times and too little at others. 

Yeah I mean it probably could have used one more episode between this week and last but not much interesting shit happens in that ten year gap besides child births. Definitely don’t think there needs to be flashbacks next season or anything. 

[C.T. Phipps]

Yeah, we needed an episode where Criston Cole's shift to evil/murder was dealt with and Ser Harwin starting his relationship with Rhaenyra.

[SeanF]

47 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

In fact, speaking in Medieval terms, it's actually NOT the issue that people think because bastards have been making claims on the throne of England since time memorial and people keep trying to act like they've never risen against true born sons with popular support. There's a reason John of Gaunt's children are some of the most important people of English history and that's because a King's legitimized bastards are usually some of the most important people in the country. We also know that in Westeros a good half of the nobility was willing to rise in the name of a legitimized bastard.

Catelyn Stark also thinks that a good chunk of the Northerners would support Jon Snow against his brother Rob if there was a problem, which is probably paranoia but they're following Jon over Bran by the time he's made King in the North.

If Laenor or the king denounced them as bastards, that would indeed be serious.

But neither does.  Another real world example is Jochi, eldest son of Genghis Khan.  He was likely the product of rape, when Borte was kidnapped, but Genghis Khan acknowledged him as legitimate. His brother Chagatai denounced him as a bastard, but was ridiculed over it.

[C.T. Phipps]

3 minutes ago, SeanF said:

If Laenor or the king denounced them as bastards, that would indeed be serious.

But neither does.  Another real world example is Jochi, eldest son of Genghis Khan.  He was likely the product of rape, when Borte was kidnapped, but Genghis Khan acknowledged him as legitimate. His brother Chagatai denounced him as a bastard, but was ridiculed over it.

Yes, without Laenor on record, it is just gossip and treasonous gossip at that.

And again, I think the fact that Alicent knows this would get the children KILLED makes her a massive hypocrite.

She's drawn first blood in attempting to kill children.

[SeanF]

5 minutes ago, SeanF said:

If Laenor or the king denounced them as bastards, that would indeed be serious.

But neither does.  Another real world example is Jochi, eldest son of Genghis Khan.  He was likely the product of rape, when Borte was kidnapped, but Genghis Khan acknowledged him as legitimate. His brother Chagatai denounced him as a bastard, but was ridiculed over it.

 

Edited September 28, 2022 by SeanF

[TeethGrinder]

50 minutes ago, Mark Antony said:

Yeah I mean it probably could have used one more episode between this week and last but not much interesting shit happens in that ten year gap besides child births. Definitely don’t think there needs to be flashbacks next season or anything. 

It's not so much to cover anything interesting but more to establish characters and relationships so that the interesting shit in episode 6 would hit harder. 

I wish we had more time with Harwin and Laena - There relationships and deaths felt a bit rushed and cheap when it was all condensed into one episode. 

[TeethGrinder]

1 hour ago, C.T. Phipps said:

It's going to and was treated as a spurious accusation by someone trying to forward their own claim, just like Stannis' claim of incest was with Renly.

Remember Renly CONGRATULATED Stannis on what he assumed was a lie that worked well because it was so outrageous that it got tongues wagging even if no one believed it. It was treated the same way the accusations that Henry VIII threw at Anne to get her executed.

If Renly didn't know before (and I think it's debateable whether he did or not) he definitely knew once Stannis got the word out. There's no way that he, as a Baratheon who lived at court with the Lannisters couldn't piece it together at that point.

It was in Renly's interest to ridicule the notion as opportunism on Stannis' part as he was presenting himself as the guy to overthrow the ruling tyrant - That doesn't really work if that tyrant is illegitimate anyway. 

Stannis' claim definitely lands with some people - Tyrion was extremely smart to not come down hard on the gossip as Cersei intended. 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

1 hour ago, Stenkarazine said:

The arguments deployed in this thread about the Strong bastards not being that big of a deal are really not holding any water.

The issue isn't even that they are bastards, it's that Rhaenyra presents them as Laenor's legitimate children.

[C.T. Phipps]

42 minutes ago, TeethGrinder said:

If Renly didn't know before (and I think it's debateable whether he did or not) he definitely knew once Stannis got the word out. There's no way that he, as a Baratheon who lived at court with the Lannisters couldn't piece it together at that point.

It was in Renly's interest to ridicule the notion as opportunism on Stannis' part as he was presenting himself as the guy to overthrow the ruling tyrant - That doesn't really work if that tyrant is illegitimate anyway. 

Stannis' claim definitely lands with some people - Tyrion was extremely smart to not come down hard on the gossip as Cersei intended. 

Really? Because I absolutely took it as Renly doesn't believe it.

And doesn't care either way.

He's a usurper so it would be ABSOLUTELY in his best interests to call Joffrey and his siblings bastards. If Renly cared about legitimacy, which he doesn't, he'd just say that they're bastards and Stannis is illegitimate because he's abandoned the faith of the Seven.

But he only cares about his armies.

The show invented the idea he envisioned himself as some great liberator.