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[Spoilers] Episode 106 Discussion


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26 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

The issue isn't even that they are bastards, it's that Rhaenyra presents them as Laenor's legitimate children.

None of which matters either because they are his legitimate children in the eyes of the law.

Which is part of why I like Renly because it's Martin underscoring that these questions of legitimacy are very often moot.

The irony of the Anarchy parallel to Stephen is that Aegon has a far greater claim to the throne than Stephen ever did as he jumped many other people (including siblings) and only has a very weak claim to it through his mother but it worked out for him because, like Renly, he was a great general with lots of charisma.

Also lied repeatedly to people about what they'd get from it.

And as we find out, not that many people rally to Aegon's side. The Stormlands only do it because of promises that Aemond never fulfills.

Is there ever a reason given why the Lannisters side with the Usurper?

Edited by C.T. Phipps
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5 hours ago, Denam_Pavel said:

Oh come on. If Alicent doesn't have any proof then neither does Stannis.

Tbf, no, Stannis does not any proof.

 

Quote

"And true."
"And true. Yet you have no proof. Of this incest. No more than you did a year ago."

 

Both Varys and Jon Arryn did have conclusive evidence about Robert not being the father, Stannis had none. 

Children not looking like the parents is no proof of bastardry, on that much Viserys is right. A couple like Laenor and Rhaenyra can perfectly have white kids, it's not even unlikely, what gives the barstardry away is the hair, much like Cersei's children. But that they look nothing alike the parent is not very indicative of much.

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1 hour ago, C.T. Phipps said:

None of which matters either because they are his legitimate children in the eyes of the law.

Which is part of why I like Renly because it's Martin underscoring that these questions of legitimacy are very often moot.

Renly had no right to the throne whatsoever, though.

Edited by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy
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5 minutes ago, frenin said:

Tbf, no, Stannis does not any proof.

 

 

Both Varys and Jon Arryn did have conclusive evidence about Robert not being the father, Stannis had none. 

Children not looking like the parents is no proof of bastardry, on that much Viserys is right. A couple like Laenor and Rhaenyra can perfectly have white kids, it's not even unlikely, what gives the barstardry away is the hair, much like Cersei's children. But that they look nothing alike the parent is not very indicative of much.

Varys and Jon Arryn didn't have any proof. Ned had a form of proof for himself, in Cersei telling him what the deal is to his face. The others just decided for themselves that the way things looked was enough to be certain about it.

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4 minutes ago, Denam_Pavel said:

Varys and Jon Arryn didn't have any proof. Ned had a form of proof for himself, in Cersei telling him what the deal is to his face. The others just decided for themselves that the way things looked was enough to be certain about it.

Varys and Jon Arryn had the evidence of children came out all looking like him and the fact that thereh had been several Baratheon-Lannister matches in the past and all the kids looked Baratheon.

It's a concrete proof? Not really, but it's solid enough to conclude the children are not Robert's and it's solid enough to convince Robert, and the readers.

But it went beyond "this three particular kids just don't look like you". Like Stannis or Alicent.

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15 minutes ago, frenin said:

Varys and Jon Arryn had the evidence of children came out all looking like him and the fact that thereh had been several Baratheon-Lannister matches in the past and all the kids looked Baratheon.

It's a concrete proof? Not really, but it's solid enough to conclude the children are not Robert's and it's solid enough to convince Robert, and the readers.

But it went beyond "this three particular kids just don't look like you". Like Stannis or Alicent.

There have been a LOT more Velaryon and Targaryan matches then Lannister and Baratheon. Both of them coming from interbred Valyrian lines, they've looked as consistent as anything. In fact, barely any of the examples Ned found actually seem to exist in canon, the Baratheons haven't been in Westeros that long and GRRM has done nothing to integrate the idea that there have been several Baratheon-Lannisters marriages in that time when fleshing out the history. Leana, Daemon and Rhaenyra's other kids all look Valyrian, just the ones whose father is gay don't look like their father but rather their mother's sworn sword. 

The temperament of the King in question is the only real distinction.

Edited by Denam_Pavel
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10 minutes ago, Denam_Pavel said:

There have been a LOT more Velaryon and Targaryan matches then Lannister and Baratheon. Both of them coming from interbred Valyrian lines, they've looked as consistent as anything. In fact, barely any of the examples Ned found actually seem to exist in canon, the Baratheons haven't been in Westeros that long and GRRM has done nothing to integrate the idea that there have been several Baratheon-Lannisters marriages in that time when fleshing out the history.

Laenor is Velaryon-Baratheon. Rhaenys herself was black of hair, in the show she isn't which makes the kids not having blonde hair a deal breaker, so there's enough wiggle room for people to raise the concern and that concern being dismissed. No such thing occured with Robert.

 

Eh, whether Martin is going to flesh those marriages or not is another matter. He wrote on purpose to make a point, the children couldn't be Robert's.

 

That is evidence, Alicent and Stannis words are just rumours, treasonous rumours at that.

Edited by frenin
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10 minutes ago, Denam_Pavel said:

There have been a LOT more Velaryon and Targaryan matches then Lannister and Baratheon. Both of them coming from interbred Valyrian lines, they've looked as consistent as anything. In fact, barely any of the examples Ned found actually seem to exist in canon, the Baratheons haven't been in Westeros that long and GRRM has done nothing to integrate the idea that there have been several Baratheon-Lannisters marriages in that time when fleshing out the history. Leana, Daemon and Rhaenyra's other kids all look Valyrian, just the ones whose father is gay don't look like their father but rather their mother's sworn sword. 

The temperament of the King in question is the only real distinction.

I mean, Rhaenyra's hair is absolutely out of canon as is Aemma's. But there's no reason that Alicent's children should look the way they do.

They're proof positive her argument is nonsense.

  

31 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Renly had no right to the throne whatsoever, though.

He could have actually made several arguments. He chose not to because he didn't care.

He was following Robert's example.

Edited by C.T. Phipps
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1 minute ago, frenin said:

Laenor is Velaryon-Baratheon. Rhaenys herself was black of hair, in the show she isn't which makes the kids not having blonde hair a deal breaker, so there's enough wiggle room for people to raise the concern and that concern being dismissed. No such thing occured with Robert.

 

Eh, whether Martin is going to flesh those marriages or not is another matter. He wrote on purpose to make a point, the children couldn't be Robert's.

 

That is evidence, Alicent and Stannis words are just rumours, treasonous rumours at that.

Rhaenys has hair black as coal, like any Baratheon, yes. the boys do not however have Baratheon traits, nor Valyrian, not their eyes, not their hair, not their nose. Rhaenys is no way a precedent for where they get these traits from. Martin had Laenor live in a different castle from Rhaenyra too, he did that purpose to make a point as well.

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8 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

He could have actually made several arguments. He chose not to because he didn't care.

He was following Robert's example.

Renly did make an argument, and it was an incredibly lousy one.

And Robert didn't just decide to take the throne on a whim, he acted partially in self-defence. So his and Renly's situations are not the same.

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5 minutes ago, Denam_Pavel said:

Rhaenys has hair black as coal, like any Baratheon, yes. the boys do not however have Baratheon traits, nor Valyrian, not their eyes, not their hair, not their nose. Rhaenys is no way a precedent for where they get these traits from. Martin had Laenor live in a different castle from Rhaenyra too, he did that purpose to make a point as well.

No, but the Rhaeny's feats, as Aemma's, gives people the liberty to dismiss the argument, that is how people like Eustace dismiss it when they are not particularly pro Rhaenyra.

Which is the point, the kids were def bastards but there's enough wiggle room, so the only argument of the bastardry is that they do not look like the parents, which although is fair in this case it's a bad bad argument overall. No wonder it was dismissed and most people didn't actually care about the paternity.

Martin had Laenor live in a different castle from Rhaenyra to make it incredibly obvious for the readers, but in universe, Laenor and Rhaenyra living separately is not impediment from the having sex every once in a good while.

 

5 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

he acted partially in self-defence.

Robert rose in self defense, he didn't take the throne in self defense.

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Yeah, we needed an episode where Criston Cole's shift to evil/murder was dealt with and Ser Harwin starting his relationship with Rhaenyra.

They didn’t need a episode to establish Rhaenyra and Harwin they just needed a scene of them flirting with each other which they could have done since they showed them doing the “hey” dance together in the episode.

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1 minute ago, frenin said:

No, but the Rhaeny's feats, as Aemma's, gives people the liberty to dismiss the argument, that is how people like Eustace dismiss it when they are not particularly pro Rhaenyra.

Which is the point, the kids were def bastards but there's enough wiggle room, so the only argument of the bastardry is that they do not look like the parents, which although is fair in this case it's a bad bad argument overall. No wonder it was dismissed and most people didn't actually care about the paternity.

Martin had Laenor live in a different castle from Rhaenyra to make it incredibly obvious for the readers, but in universe, Laenor and Rhaenyra living separately is not impediment from the having sex every once in a good while.

Cersei and Robert actually did have sex every once in while. And Robert wouldn't have a whole bunch of bastards from whores in the first place if birth control was perfect in this world. Jon Arryn having conclusive proof that Stannis lacks is just blatantly untrue. Ned made sure the only real way this world has means to at severe cost to himself: asking the mother, Varys wasn't gonna do anything, Jon was gonna kill those kids based on his own broad judgement.

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Just now, Denam_Pavel said:

Cersei and Robert actually did have sex every once in while. And Robert wouldn't have a whole bunch of bastards from whores in the first place if birth control was perfect in this world. Jon Arryn having conclusive proof that Stannis lacks is just blatantly untrue. Ned made sure the only real way this world has means to at severe cost to himself: asking the mother, Varys wasn't gonna do anything, Jon was gonna kill those kids based on his own broad judgement.

Sure they did and that's why no one suspected a thing for 13 years.

Once they start investigating and concluding it's not really possible for a Baratheon to have Lannister looking kids, especially if Jon Arryn just like Varys is tracking down Robert's bastards in the city and realizing he's just fathering clones of him. Saying that he doesn't have conclusive evidence is just blatantly untrue.

There's nothing Cersei can use as excuse to save herself from Robert, Rhaenyra did have that, even if admittedly is flimsy, that's also the reason of the treatment each children receives. There's also the fact that the children were acknowledged by Laenor even after the rumours of bastardry arose, had Robert heard about thte bastardry and still decided to claim the children as his, well tough luck Stannis.

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This discussion about the Velaryon princes' bastardy being obvious or not leads me to another question:

In the show, how is treated the fact that Lord Corlys and his children are, well, black ? It is something that is supposed to be invisible to everyone in-universe, or is it acknowledged (Summer Isles' blood or such) ? 

If the former, then indeed the appearance of the princes can be ascribed to Baratheon genes or whatever and their bastardy remains not too obvious - but this creates a dissonance in that we viewers see something (African phenotype) that characters in-universe do not see (meaning that as far as they are concerned, Corlys and Laenor look like any other Targaryen). 

If the latter, then the fact that these children do not proceed from Laenor should be painfully obvious.

Generally speaking I am not too fond of the editorial decision to ignore or hand waive phenotype. If you want to have a diverse cast, then you should stand by it and translate it into the work. Otherwise there is no point in having a diverse cast.

Edited by Stenkarazine
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14 hours ago, RumHam said:

In the books I assumed there was a lot of distance between Rhaenyra and Laenor after her guard and possible lover killed Jeoffry. Doesn't he live at Driftmark? On the show though yeah it makes no sense that they wouldn't honor their deal of producing an heir. 

One hopes they address this issue. Laenor isn't dead yet, so one imagines that Rhaenyra and he might talk about why Laenor never fathered children on her. After all, in the show they did agree to do that ... so why didn't they? That's really the dragon in the room. Harwin and Rhaenyra could have had all the fun they wanted while Rhaenyra was safely impregnated by Laenor or while she was drinking moon tea to prevent another pregnancy.

For the book it must be stressed, though, that this marriage was just a failure, similarly to Daemon-Rhea. Them not living together says everything, and the claim that Laenor was visiting 'frequently', after Rhaenyra moved to Dragonstone also reads like the official stance of the court to not make this thing look worse than it was. The only source who actually claims stuff was going on between them is Mushroom and that's his member and threesome fantasies.

Rhaenyra loathed the idea of marrying Laenor, presumably because he was the antithesis of everything she desired in a man - not well-built, not a warrior, not dangerous. It is speculation, but I view him as a more effeminate gay man and one who preferred it be fucked rather than actually fuck when he had sex (he does play the role of the woman at the wedding tourney, handing his favor to Joffrey). It that were the case then him being willing to actually try to father an heir on Rhaenyra would be pretty low - and even more so if he actually blamed her sluttiness and issues with men for the death of his beloved Joffrey. Who was targeted by Criston presumably because of his issues with Rhaenyra.

This is where show Rhaenyra could have been a touch greyer - if they had included her loathing of the Laenor match and if they written as a woman who was disgusted by this man who couldn't or wouldn't do his marital duties on her (kind of how show Rhea attacked Daemon) and perhaps also of his sexual preferences. This is something one can draw from book Rhaenyra.

The idea that she would give bad advice at council or not consider a marriage between her children and Alicent's is not in the book at all.

With that missing though the Harwin thing is, so far, quite odd.

Some spoiler reports claimed there would be a scene where

Spoiler

Rhaenyra and Laenor reveal they tried to conceive a child for quite some time but it never worked.

This could be from next episode, to be sure, but I'm not sure the timeline allows for the Harwin-Rhaenyra thing to have started long after the wedding. Jace is about ten years already, and about ten years passed between episode 5 and 6.

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28 minutes ago, frenin said:

Sure they did and that's why no one suspected a thing for 13 years.

Once they start investigating and concluding it's not really possible for a Baratheon to have Lannister looking kids, especially if Jon Arryn just like Varys is tracking down Robert's bastards in the city and realizing he's just fathering clones of him. Saying that he doesn't have conclusive evidence is just blatantly untrue.

There's nothing Cersei can use as excuse to save herself from Robert, Rhaenyra did have that, even if admittedly is flimsy, that's also the reason of the treatment each children receives. There's also the fact that the children were acknowledged by Laenor even after the rumours of bastardry arose, had Robert heard about thte bastardry and still decided to claim the children as his, well tough luck Stannis.

I mean it's surely possible. Tywin's family don't look like Baratheons now, despite evidently having several Baratheons in their family tree (in book 1 anyway). It trumps them but evidently doesn't extinquish blonde, green eyed genes forever. Robert obviously thinks he fathered the kids, so clearly he remembers encounters with Cersei that corrospond with her pregnancies well enough. Cersei was at least in bedchambers with Robert at the right time, Jon Arryn can't attest to what didn't happen, even Varys' birds would be hardpressed to prove that stuff. Cersei has Robert's own experience to throw against these accusations. Rhaenyra wasn't sleeping with Laenor but unwilling to bear his children, he just wasn't there sleeping with her, period. There's gotta be a lot more physical evidence against Rhaenyra/Laenor then Cersei.

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11 minutes ago, Stenkarazine said:

If the latter, then the fact that these children do not proceed from Laenor should be painfully obvious.

This is punnet square 101.

Kids with 1/4 black ancestry and 3/4 white ancestry can be, and most likely are, white, not white passing but white.

The telling part of the bastardry is the hair, not the skin tone, imo the meta reason for the kids beeing white is to laeve no doubt for the audience.

 

4 minutes ago, Denam_Pavel said:

Tywin's family don't look like Baratheons now, despite evidently having several Baratheons in their family tree (in book 1 anyway).

Do they have Baratheons in their family tree? Afaik they do not, nor we're told those matches got reintroduced to the main line.

They were random matches of random branches, which is one of the  other reasons those characters are not going to ever come again.

 

6 minutes ago, Denam_Pavel said:

Robert obviously thinks he fathered the kids, so clearly he remembers encounters with Cersei that corrospond with her pregnancies well enough.

Yeah. Won't be that helpful if Arryn decides to come with his Westerosi version of Maury program.

That Robert had sex with her doesn't mean that he's the father, especially if there's circumstantial evidence pointing out the contrary.

 

 

10 minutes ago, Denam_Pavel said:

Rhaenyra wasn't sleeping with Laenor but unwilling to bear his children, he just wasn't there sleeping with her, period.

This in an inference we the readers can make.

Laenor was gay and wasn't that interested in Rhaenyra, so they'd be only together a few  few times  to get children, or as Murmison puts it to eat fish.

 

 

15 minutes ago, Denam_Pavel said:

There's gotta be a lot more physical evidence against Rhaenyra/Laenor then Cersei.

I'd say that if the Greens had conducted an investigation properly, they could have proved that the children couldn't be Laenor's.

They used it as a slander tho, so those who didn't care or didn't stand to gain anything from it, which as things stood were everyone in the Realm but Alicent's kids and Vaemond Velaryon simply dismiss it.

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7 hours ago, SeanF said:

If a father acknowledges the children as his, that’s the end of the matter.

Robert would have been so enraged at being made a cuckold, he’d have killed Cersei’s children.  Laenor was unbothered.

It is. People seem to forget what the concept of bastardy is - it is a slur for children born out of wedlock, or more specifically, for the child of a woman who is unmarried. That is also the case in Westeros since the mock names bestowed on noble bastards are *never* given to children born in wedlock, never mind how they look or how exceedingly unlikely it is that they were fathered by their legal father (e.g. the Footly boy born post-Tumbleton, Elaena's Viserys 'Plumm').

Children born in wedlock may in fact be the mailman's or the milkman's child ... but that doesn't make them bastards, it makes them merely not the biological child of their legal father. Marriage is the legal contract ensuring that a wife's children are the children of their husband.

Now, it is imaginable that a royal or noble father gets doubt about the parentage of his son or daughter, accuses his wife of adultery, and subsequently get a ruling (or rules himself if he were the king) that his children were, in fact, illegtimate. But we never actually see that happening, although it may have happened if Ned had told Robert what Cersei told him about the parentage of his children.

The only thing resembling something like that is Lucamore's children being declared bastards after he is sent to the Wall. But that's because the king and queen ruled that the marriages were never valid, not because another man fathered those children on Lucamore's wife.

Book-wise, there is no evidence that Rhaenyra's sons aren't Laenor's since we have no canonical description of Harwin Strong. Book-wise, there is also no proof that Cersei's children aren't Robert's, merely Cersei's claim that this is the case (she believes it to be true, but she could be mistaken - although the chance isn't that high).

Nobody has any real evidence for anything regarding Cersei until she actually talks to Ned (unless others overheard or saw something they have not yet revealed to us). If you think about, the whole Jaime-Cersei calumny is a monstrous and perverse story. It is sibling incest, after all, and there is no evidence it ever happened nor any reason to believe that twin siblings should share an especially strong bond.

Ned is a loyal Hand and servant of his king while he merely wants to tell Robert. But when he decides not to tell him and instead forges his last will, intending to use the king's decree to get himself as Lord Regent and Protector of a king he then intends to depose ... he pretty much becomes another version of Otto Hightower, although a more well-intended one. Like Otto does when he raises the issue of the royal succession at the Small Council meeting after Viserys' death, Ned also thinks he knows who should be king.

He certainly is entitled to an opinion on the matter, but he cannot set himself as the regent of King Joffrey only to undermine and depose King Joffrey as soon as wields royal authority in Joffrey's name.

Robert should have been told, he should have been given to decide whether he believes this story or not. He should also been given the opportunity to rule on his succession, perhaps legitimize one of his bastards to name him heir instead of Joffrey, Tommen, or Myrcella - or just go with the idea to use the bastard story to get rid of Joff and Cersei, while having Ned rule as regent in the name of a King Tommen.

He could also have named the absent Stannis or Renly his heir (who happened to be right outside).

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