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[Spoilers] Episode 106 Discussion


Ran
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Just now, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Laena talked about "joining our houses, like the were in Old Valyria", so they definitely did intermarry.

That would be what 500 years ago?  It's a bit different than the dynamics in the book that they intermarried often after the Targaryens moved to Dragonstone, and provided the Targaryens with their second (really third) queen.

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1 hour ago, Ran said:

But they aren't going to be doing much, if any, time jumping. The narrative will become more conventional in that sense.

They might actually stretch out the Dance over more years. Aegon and Viserys will be very young when the war begins in the show, it seems, and Joffrey, too.

Aegon III is a crucial character at the end of the story, and while he still has to be a child, he cannot be a toddler when/if he flees the ship or watches his mother's death.

We don't expect them to include Joffrey and Aegon and Viserys to do little to nothing with their characters.

51 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I personally wish they had just given us an explanation that House Velaryon had very recently married into nobility from the Summer Isles, which is both a logical extension of House Velaryon's international ties and gives another reason that the Lords of the Realm might consider Corlys an outsider.

I'd not include resentment over that, since Corlys's father could easily enough have a powerful and wealthy Princess from the Summer Isles. And it the end the nobility should recognize foreign nobility as their peers, especially if we talk nobility on the sovereign level. The best way to do it would make it a cousin match - one of Daemon's or Aethan's daughters married a Summer Islander Prince (perhaps in the wake of the report about the attack on Tall Trees Town that caused Aegon to build the walls of KL) and Corlys's father later married a daughter from that union, his first or second cousin. The bride in question would then not look Valyrian, but would still have Valyrian blood making her a desirable bride for the heir to Driftmark.

I still think the Corlys show should fly with that since it would work great to (1) set up Corlys desire for exploration and (2) give him access to better shipbuilding techniques and maps of the oceans. Hell, one of the nine voyages might easily enough go to the Summer Isles, anyway, so he could visit his mother's family there.

In context, a Targaryen prince marrying one of the Black Pearl's descendants would likely also not cause a gigantic scandal. They are famed for their beauty and they do have the blood of the dragon. In the end, it is the latter that counts in the eyes of that people.

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Weirdly enough, I don’t really have a favorite character on this show. It might end up being Jace, like in the books, and Rhaenys could benefit from extra screen time, but none of them have personalities that really snatch me in like Sansa and Jaime and Margaery did. Adult Rhaenyra could, but it’s only been one episode.

I really like their take on Viserys, young Alicent and Rhaenyra both, and pre-fallout Criston. Rhaenys and Corlys are okay, but have too little screentime.

Otto was nice as well and Lyonel Strong.

Adult Rhaenyra might be interesting.

Daemon is just an ass.

2 hours ago, teej6 said:

The point people should be taking umbrage with is why Martin (or rather the show) allows Alicent to make such accusations with no consequence or repercussions. Viserys is weak but Lyonel or others can advice the King that his queen is bordering on treason by spreading such rumors about his daughter and heir, and it endangers the safety of the realm.

That is a good point. The show lacks internal consistency with the murdering thug Criston Cole being allowed to stay on the KG while Harwin is dismissed from the City Watch for something that should only be a minor issue (Harwin's attack on Criston should have no repercussions at all since the guy was provoking - what they could have construed as problematic was his apparent attack on Aegon - but that is nothing that comes up later).

When Rhaenyra makes her Jace-Helaena offer Alicent should have been eager to accept that olive branch, at least for the time being, since the fact that her accusations didn't have the desired effect should have increased her fears that Rhaenyra and her allies might strike back. It wouldn't have even been as big an issue as it is if Lyonel Strong hadn't been that honorable or conservative a man as he turned out to be - in the book he could have just as well pushed Harwin into this relationship with the intention to marry Harwin to the princess should Laenor die in the future.

2 hours ago, teej6 said:

I see the two situations as very different. One where we have a king who loves his daughter and will not entertain the rumors about her and her kids; whereas another case where we have a king who dislikes his wife and may be entertaining thoughts of getting rid of her. Moreover in the first instance, the husband of the princess does not dispute his paternity. So Alicent’s accusations as I said before borders on treason. I do hope Viserys in the next episode loudly threatens anyone with their tongues being removed if they question the kids paternity/ legitimacy.

Something like that must happen there - and again during the Vaemond affair which we are likely going to see, too, since Vaemond is in the show.

2 hours ago, teej6 said:

The issue I have is why was Harwin dismissed. He and his father could have told the king that he attacked Cole because the douchebag made derogatory comments questioning the princess virtue. And Lyonel has the king’s trust and ear. 

That wouldn't have even been necessary - Viserys was right there, he saw everything and he could have made a ruling based on his own observation. We know who he prefers, so there is really no reason for him to dismiss Harwin at all.

But, again, the fact that he kept Criston Cole who had neither connections no a great name would imply that Harwin should have been punished even if he had bashed Criston's head in.

Even the interpretation that Harwin kind of gave away the truth there makes little sense - Criston Cole was besmirching the honor of Rhaenyra, her sons, and Laenor Velaryon. In that setting/world he would have acted pretty much the same if the accusations had been completely false, especially he felt a loyalty to Rhaenyra and her family. Even more so he himself was attacked as well. You wouldn't let that slide as a knight and nobleman.

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Blacks are literally your cool uncle, and Greens are just good for nothing phonies who pretend to be righteous, but are total hypocrites in reality. 

I feel like it's a fairly accurate description, which is funny because GRRM imagined a more or less even split in the fandom regarding whose side people are on. I don't know what his thought process was here.

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18 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I feel like it's a fairly accurate description, which is funny because GRRM imagined a more or less even split in the fandom regarding whose side people are on. I don't know what his thought process was here.

Looking ahead to the end of the season, the Green actors are arguably hotter, so that will win them over a few fans at the very least.

 

Now that I think about it, maybe they should have Daeron look like Alicent at the very least, since Rhaenyra’s two youngest sons will be pure Valyrian. That way there’s a mix on both sides.

Edited by The Bard of Banefort
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18 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Looking ahead to the end of the season, the Green actors are arguably hotter, so that will win them over a few fans at the very least.

That didn't stop Criston from becoming hated, so... And I don't think that Aegon and Aemond will be portrayed in a sympathetic light going forward.

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17 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

That didn't stop Criston from becoming hated, so... And I don't think that Aegon and Aemond will be portrayed in a sympathetic light going forward.

Oh yes, a lot of female fans go, "Yeah, I know a guy like Criston. Great villain. Utterly detestable now."

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2 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

That didn't stop Criston from becoming hated, so... And I don't think that Aegon and Aemond will be portrayed in a sympathetic light going forward.

But they still love Daemon. I’m willing to bet Aemond will be popular among some of the ladies, especially once Alys Rivers shows up.

Spoiler

This will be especially true if we get the rumored scenes of him telling Aegon to stop spending so much time at brothels and to start being nicer to Helaena.

That said, there are also plenty of people defending Criston and Alicent, saying that they’re misunderstood and were done wrong by Rhaenyra. 

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2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

HOTD seems to be trying to do a twist on most versions of events in FnB. With that in mind, I’m thinking that Jace will indeed meet Sara Snow in Winterfell, but that it won’t result in a secret marriage.

I think it kind of has to because there's not three seasons worth of characterization in the Dance.

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I didnt like the weird looks Alicent gives to King Aegon & grabs his chin.The show makers are already making Alicent very crazy. And they are clearly going Greens bad and Blacks good by that unnecessary jerk scene. All mushroom rumors on him is likely going to be shown while those on Rhae would be whitewashed.

Helaena is so precious. I wish they give her many dragon scenes with Deamfyre and be bit more than sad sob story. But showmakers with their rushing up i doubt. We should be shown her scenes with commoners to see why she's so loved.
I see talks of Daeron the Daring being cut and poor Maelor. They shouldnt be.

While looking adult Rhae scenes feels like watching Euphoria even at times voice felt same.
Feels silly that the talks only rises after third child and Harwin's assult. When whole court could see pug nosed  boys without a glint of blood of Old Valyria or any Velaryon features(black)...which does linger in subtle form even if skin tone gets fairer.
Rhaena & Baela being darker like Laena was unrealistic. I think Baela is even more so. I like Laena's wig out of all Velaryon wig including Rhaenys. At least it looks somewhat real.

I liked that we see Laena wearing Targ colors. We never see her in Targ color in any art just like Alicent.
Her death was ridiculous. Book Laena will never put life of her child in jeopardy no matter the chance just for a selfish Valyrian death..neither would any mother no matter her station. Not Cersei even.
Their version of mother of twins failing to birth a child was pretty unrealistic already. Why not stick to book but have her actually fly in Vhagar who takes her across Driftmark like poor Aerea and she dies in arms of Rhaenys ?  I guess pregnant mother self suicide is more empowering for modern tv smh.

And Daemon seem to make her feel like second fiddle. From books i get that he really loved her and wanted a male heir. Here he looks so unbothered during the childbirth & Laena is the one pushing for marriage. Laena was done pretty dirty in this show.

For casuals the time jump should make most characters except Viserys off course seem very weirldy different . 

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I'm pretty dissapointed with lack of Rhaenys too. 

She was supposed to be a fiery granny like watered Visenya in books  & Olenna in this show but there's no screentime for her.She is fine with her situation and has zero ambition which is not quite how i pictured someone called The Queen who never was.

I want her to lash out on Rhae for bastard children. So far no one has directly confronted Rhae on it. 

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11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

They might actually stretch out the Dance over more years. Aegon and Viserys will be very young when the war begins in the show, it seems, and Joffrey, too.

Aegon III is a crucial character at the end of the story, and while he still has to be a child, he cannot be a toddler when/if he flees the ship or watches his mother's death.

We don't expect them to include Joffrey and Aegon and Viserys to do little to nothing with their characters.

I'd not include resentment over that, since Corlys's father could easily enough have a powerful and wealthy Princess from the Summer Isles. And it the end the nobility should recognize foreign nobility as their peers, especially if we talk nobility on the sovereign level. The best way to do it would make it a cousin match - one of Daemon's or Aethan's daughters married a Summer Islander Prince (perhaps in the wake of the report about the attack on Tall Trees Town that caused Aegon to build the walls of KL) and Corlys's father later married a daughter from that union, his first or second cousin. The bride in question would then not look Valyrian, but would still have Valyrian blood making her a desirable bride for the heir to Driftmark.

I still think the Corlys show should fly with that since it would work great to (1) set up Corlys desire for exploration and (2) give him access to better shipbuilding techniques and maps of the oceans. Hell, one of the nine voyages might easily enough go to the Summer Isles, anyway, so he could visit his mother's family there.

In context, a Targaryen prince marrying one of the Black Pearl's descendants would likely also not cause a gigantic scandal. They are famed for their beauty and they do have the blood of the dragon. In the end, it is the latter that counts in the eyes of that people.

I really like their take on Viserys, young Alicent and Rhaenyra both, and pre-fallout Criston. Rhaenys and Corlys are okay, but have too little screentime.

Otto was nice as well and Lyonel Strong.

Adult Rhaenyra might be interesting.

Daemon is just an ass.

That is a good point. The show lacks internal consistency with the murdering thug Criston Cole being allowed to stay on the KG while Harwin is dismissed from the City Watch for something that should only be a minor issue (Harwin's attack on Criston should have no repercussions at all since the guy was provoking - what they could have construed as problematic was his apparent attack on Aegon - but that is nothing that comes up later).

When Rhaenyra makes her Jace-Helaena offer Alicent should have been eager to accept that olive branch, at least for the time being, since the fact that her accusations didn't have the desired effect should have increased her fears that Rhaenyra and her allies might strike back. It wouldn't have even been as big an issue as it is if Lyonel Strong hadn't been that honorable or conservative a man as he turned out to be - in the book he could have just as well pushed Harwin into this relationship with the intention to marry Harwin to the princess should Laenor die in the future.

Something like that must happen there - and again during the Vaemond affair which we are likely going to see, too, since Vaemond is in the show.

That wouldn't have even been necessary - Viserys was right there, he saw everything and he could have made a ruling based on his own observation. We know who he prefers, so there is really no reason for him to dismiss Harwin at all.

But, again, the fact that he kept Criston Cole who had neither connections no a great name would imply that Harwin should have been punished even if he had bashed Criston's head in.

Even the interpretation that Harwin kind of gave away the truth there makes little sense - Criston Cole was besmirching the honor of Rhaenyra, her sons, and Laenor Velaryon. In that setting/world he would have acted pretty much the same if the accusations had been completely false, especially he felt a loyalty to Rhaenyra and her family. Even more so he himself was attacked as well. You wouldn't let that slide as a knight and nobleman.

This is spot on.

Only caveat about how Alicent should have been eager to accept the Jace-Helaena marriage: if she accepts this, she basically loses the bastardy weapon which, while unsuccessful at the moment, can still resurface at some point. Indeed, if she was a cautious operator, she could accept the match and refocus her efforts on bolstering the claims of Aegon (whose birthright is not affected by her sister marriage to Jace). But I guess this scene was used to cement her portrayal as unrelenting and uncompromising.

There is also this whole simmering resentment at Rhaenyra for having enjoyed life (and sex) while she joylessly performed her duties to an increasingly old and repugnant husband. Jace and his brothers are the living embodiment of those love and pleasure that have been denied to Alicent. The hate against the "bastards" stems in large part from this. 

Truly, the only match which could have really averted the war was the one suggested by Otto Hightower (and scoffed at by the King): Rhaenyra and Aegon the Conqueror-Babe. This would have reconciled the two competing legitimacies (designated heir for ten years vs. first-born son) which led to the civil war. This could have worked, provided Aegon had been content with the role of king consort (a big "if", admittedly, but Alicent's influence could have been curtailed).

If Rhaenyra and Aegon had children, their competing legitimacies would have been united in their child, even if it were a daughter (the appointment of Rhaenyra working as a precedent) . If (entirely possible given the age difference) they didn't produce any children, well, no problem, the crown would then pass to Aemond, in clear and uncontested succession.

 

Edited by Stenkarazine
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1 hour ago, Lightoftheast said:

She was supposed to be a fiery granny like watered Visenya in books  & Olenna in this show but there's no screentime for her.She is fine with her situation and has zero ambition which is not quite how i pictured someone called The Queen who never was.

I'm pretty sure that would have been awesome and I'm pretty dissapointed too but let's be honest, they are just following Martin's path of giving the secoond most powerful house in the Realm, or first depending on the dragons, as little time as possible.

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There’s a rumor that 

Spoiler

rather than getting killed off, Laenor and Qarl will fake their deaths and run away together next episode. . . which runs into some pretty big lore complications seeing as he has a dragon.

 

Edited by The Bard of Banefort
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