[Spoilers] Episode 106 Discussion

[butterweedstrover]

20 minutes ago, Ran said:

Alicent has had her soul crushed by duty and expectation and disappontment. Rhaenyra has had love and laughter and freedom to mostly be who she wants. The children reflect their mothers' circumstances.

Seems like a reach. Rhaenyra had her own (significant) problems and being free and self-indulgent does not equate to good mothering capabilities. Meanwhile, Alicent was (emphasis on was) portrayed as kind, gentle, and well mannered. You'd at least expect her kids to not be horribly hedonistic and flippant but that is what you get. 

Because the show wants to portray Rhaenyra and her kids as lovable and great while Alicent and her children are crude, jealous, and awful. 

And I'm not buying it. 

[The Bard of Banefort]

5 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

To me, it doesn't really make sense that Rhaenyra is a better mother than Alicent, considering how the younger versions of both characters were presented.

Yeah, that was the problem with how they characterized her when she was younger. Much like how Rhaenyra apparently lived in fear of dying in childbirth then proceeded to get pregnant six times, Alicent was warned to “prepare Aegon to rule” and then. . . didn’t.

5 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Ah, so this explains why Alicent’s character was thrown down the garbage shoot: 

https://www.indiewire.com/2022/09/house-of-the-dragon-olivia-cooke-trump-1234766026/amp/ 
 

They want her position to be fundamentally ‘evil’ (like they view trump) while having a sympathetic backstory. And Rhaenyra by consequence is going to represent the alternative viewpoint. 
 

This show was losing me with the excessive time skips, poor character introductions, stilted dialogue, and humorless framework. 
 

Now it has lost me. I don’t even want to keep watching if this is what they are doing to Alicent. 

Yeah, the showrunner comments were really dumb and make them look sheltered. Even living in a deep blue state, as I do, it was always clear that T’s biggest female supporters were working class women, not debutantes (if anything, the debutantes were among those who found him most appalling for his lack of decorum). “But they’re holding up the patriarchy!!1!” No, they hate the system and wanted someone who made the rich and famous clutch their pearls. Alicent Hightower is the opposite of that.

 

Something the show didn’t really set up is the stigma against bastards and why they’re so reviled in Westeros. They basically banked on the viewers having remembered all that from GOT. . . except GOT threw that all out the window when they had the northerners flock to crown Jon Snow despite his trueborn sister sitting right next to him and not raising a peep. So it just seems like Alicent has a weird fixation on Rhaenyra’s sex life and can’t let go of it a decade later.

Edited September 29, 2022 by The Bard of Banefort

[Ran]

I have no control over your wallet, so what you buy is what you buy, and what I buy is what I buy!

It's a thematic contrast between the two -- the unhappy person has unhappy results in life, the happy person has happy results in life. There's nothing inherent in Rhaenyra in the first five episodes that insist she would be a bad mother once she accepted motherhood. Which happened. Though I would have preferred if they hadn't made that aspect of things part of her character in the five episodes and then jettisoned it in the jump without some more dwelling on the subject.

And similarly, there's nothing inherent in Alicent that she would have happy results with her children. As she became embittered, it ruined her perspective on her own children. Though Helaena seems fine besides a neurodivergence that's no one's fault, and there's nothing about Aemond that seems off at this point in time of the show and we can see why he might turn out as he does based on the events we expect to see this weekend. While Aegon being a problem child can happen to even a good parent. 

Edited September 29, 2022 by Ran

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

I don’t even want to keep watching if this is what they are doing to Alicent. 

But if this was their plan for Alicent, why bother making her sympathetic in the first half of the season?

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, Ran said:

I feel like Alicent does some of the same things as F&B Alicent but her motives definitely grow out of what the writers set in the first five episodes. I feel like Rhaenyra is a bit harder to understand, in some ways, namely in how she went from fearing and dreading motherhood to happily popping out multiple children and not seeming fussed about it. I feel like seeing the lead up to her first pregnancy and birth in an additional episode, stopping as she's about to give birth, and then starting ten years later with the birth of a third child... that might have done it.

The cut there is just too abrupt. Not just regarding Rhaenyra's personality, but also Criston Cole's survival/continuation in the KG, the Harwin affair, and the Daemon-Laena marriage.

The show should have closed with the birth of Jacaerys, Daeron, and Baela, and from there jumping ahead to the birth of Joffrey.

Rhaenyra's decision to have children (with Harwin) and her feelings throughout her first pregnancy is something we should have seen. If everything went smoothly there, and if she was full of joy for the birth of her first son you can see why her character would change.

Now we have to imagine that something along those lines must have happened, but we don't know why. Just as we don't know why Rhaenyra is not having children with Laenor in the show. In the book that's pretty clear if it is what happened - because she cannot stand the guy.

3 hours ago, Ran said:

But they had 10 episodes, not 11, so I understand why that didn't happen. Maybe if people petition enough, HBO wil lsanction a special one-off episode with Milly and Emily? Heh.

They certainly would deserve something like that - they could easily make a 90-120 minutes special taking place in the ten years gap prior to the beginning of season 2. I'd prefer that to flashbacks in season 2.

In light of the success there is little reason to not do something like that if you think about it.

Edited September 29, 2022 by Lord Varys

[butterweedstrover]

29 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

But if this was their plan for Alicent, why bother making her sympathetic in the first half of the season?

I literally have no clue, but after reading the article it seems to be what the showrunners are going for (as well as Olivia). 

But they did write Emily's Alicent who I loved. The small hints of anxiety, her gentleness, her nuanced political views, and her subtle bravery even in the face of her father's influence. 

Right now it seems like the showrunners just don't care about consistency. 

[C.T. Phipps]

1 hour ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

To me, it doesn't really make sense that Rhaenyra is a better mother than Alicent, considering how the younger versions of both characters were presented.

I mean it makes perfect sense if you think that enforcing duty and expectation actually are horrible things for children.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

5 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I mean it makes perfect sense if you think that enforcing duty and expectation actually are horrible things for children.

I mean, Ned Stark was a perfectly fine father, in my very humble opinion.

[BlackLightning]

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

Ah, so this explains why Alicent’s character was thrown down the garbage shoot: 

https://www.indiewire.com/2022/09/house-of-the-dragon-olivia-cooke-trump-1234766026/amp/ 
 

They want her position to be fundamentally ‘evil’ (like they view trump) while having a sympathetic backstory. And Rhaenyra by consequence is going to represent the alternative viewpoint. 
 

This show was losing me with the excessive time skips, poor character introductions, stilted dialogue, and humorless framework. 
 

Now it has lost me. I don’t even want to keep watching if this is what they are doing to Alicent. 

I completely understand your frustration with the excessive time skips and poor character introductions

But Alicent Hightower is a clear villain.

No one who is even the slightest bit heroic or noble is going to seriously advocate for the mutilation and murder of children...on more than one occasion. And for what reason?

[butterweedstrover]

7 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I mean it makes perfect sense if you think that enforcing duty and expectation actually are horrible things for children.

For nobility that was the standard. Especially 'back then' as the cast and crew is want to say. 

It would have been interesting if Rhaenyra despised her children for stealing her freedom and forcing her into a life of domesticity (whereas Alicent was already adept at that with fewer expectations) but instead they showed her to be a loving mother with no qualms against her lack of freedom thereafter. 

Which is fine but they also made Alicent into a horrible mother who's children are chaotic, disrespectful, and often times rewarded for such behavior. 

[El Guapo]

3 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I mean, Ned Stark was a perfectly fine father, in my very humble opinion.

Yes but Ned Stark’s father wasn’t drilling into his head day after day that his childrens step sister was going to murder his children. I am thinking they could have an effect on someone’s parenting.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

3 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

Yes but Ned Stark’s father wasn’t drilling into his head day after day that his childrens step sister was going to murder his children. I am thinking they could have an effect on someone’s parenting.

Sure, but we were talking specifically about duty and expectation.

[butterweedstrover]

9 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

But Alicent Hightower is a clear villain. 

I had hoped that was just the bias retelling from the Maesters which was being imbued with more depth and nuance in the show. 

And they DID! They literally did that, and then decided to pull back into the safer territory of "character we love to hate." 

And I hate when a writer (or writers) want to pressure me into one conclusion without me coming to it on my own free will. They are doing everything to make Alicent and her children horrible and I can see the hand of showrunners and I refuse to go along with it out of spite. 

9 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

No one who is even the slightest bit heroic or noble is going to seriously advocate for the mutilation and murder of children...on more than one occasion. And for what reason?

I may not understand what you mean, but audience members don't care too much about methods. With the scene with the Starks executed a bunch of lannisters or whatever people were like "OMG, the Starks are bad too." and then went back to rooting for them and hating the Freys, Lannisters, Boltons, etc. 

Because the story is being framed as a fundamental good with Rhaenyra and a fundamental bad with Alicent it doesn't matter if the show has some random scenes of mutilation, these things are just flimsy tools of emotional manipulate to add the illusion of depth. 

The showrunners want me to hate Alicent and I'm not going to play their game. 

Edited September 29, 2022 by butterweedstrover

[C.T. Phipps]

27 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Which is fine but they also made Alicent into a horrible mother who's children are chaotic, disrespectful, and often times rewarded for such behavior. 

I think that's part of the point that Alicent wants her children to be on the throne despite the fact they're manifestly unsuited.

Because it's not about their actual suitability, only the fact they're her children.

They're going to follow Martin's writing on the subject.

Edited September 29, 2022 by C.T. Phipps

[butterweedstrover]

32 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

 

They're going to follow Martin's writing on the subject.

From my perspective F&B was a surface level historical view on a broad range of characters with one dimensional psychology influenced through bias sources and a general lack of clarity. I don't know if this was Martin's imagination, no more than Septon Gyldan actually being Martin the person. 

But if it is why did they make Alicent the way she was in the first five episodes at odds with the material? And if all Condal was doing was being super true to the source material why leave out Daeron, the good prince among the greens? 

Maybe it's not due to following Martin's writing, but just to keep audiences from having any doubt which side is good and which side is bad. 

But hey, if a show suffers from following the source material then why do it? No one harps on the Boys or the Shining from improving upon what was given, and bad storytelling is in the end of the day bad storytelling. 

Edited September 29, 2022 by butterweedstrover

[EggBlue]

so , photos of ep7 :

https://watchersonthewall.com/new-photos-episode-7/

any idea what Corlys might be saying to little Luke? 

by the way , aren't Baella and Rhaena twins in the show? 

 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

21 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Oh yes, a lot of female fans go, "Yeah, I know a guy like Criston. Great villain. Utterly detestable now."

I guess Criston is supposed to be a deconstruction of the Knight in Shining Armor trope. A Jaime in reverse, if you will.

[RumHam]

11 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

There’s a rumor that 

  Hide contents

rather than getting killed off, Laenor and Qarl will fake their deaths and run away together next episode. . . which runs into some pretty big lore complications seeing as he has a dragon.

 

Spoiler

Oof, I would not like that change. I can understand the argument that gay characters are too often treated as disposable on TV, but changing the existing story to spare someone because of their sexual orientation seems questionable. I feel like equality is being treated like everyone else, not getting plot armor because they're afraid of fan's reactions if they follow the story as written. 

I guess they haven't firmly established the "one rider" rule as far as I remember. Or they could just had Addam ride another dragon. 

Looking at those photos from episode seven, it's really bonkers they didn't make an effort to make Daemon look younger at the start of the show. One brother hasn't aged a day and the other has aged terribly. The weight of the crown, I guess!

I almost forgot Myseria existed. I don't think she really factors into the story again until Blood and Cheese but I wonder if they'll find a way to give her something to do in these last three episodes. Maybe she can get word to Daemon about the plans for Aegon's coronation. 

[The Bard of Banefort]

Honestly, Mysaria doesn’t really need to exist in this show. The only thing she’s integral to is B&C, and they could have Daemon arrange that, especially since they’ve made him more or less a straightforward villain in the show. They could easily have Larys Strong play both sides and have him be the one who whispers poison into Rhaenyra’s ear after she takes the throne. It would probably make for more compelling television, seeing how poorly miscast Mysaria was.

[The Bard of Banefort]

The real test for how successful HOTD is won’t be the ratings or awards, but how many Funko Pops they make for the show. They have about 40 of Jon Snow in black doing slightly different poses.