[Spoilers] Episode 106 Discussion

[SeanF]

On 10/1/2022 at 1:46 AM, Colonel Green said:

All the important issues in Slaver’s Bay, most obviously Daenerys dealing with the practical difficulties of trying to abolish slavery, predate the Iraq War by several years.

I don’t think that initially, the Slavers Bay storyline (much of which was written pre-2003) had anything to do with Iraq.  Other than a vaguely Middle Eastern setting, the slavery seemed much more applicable to the most brutal forms of slaving in the ancient world than to any modern society.

I suspect the Iraq war did influence the storyline post 2003, but other influences are surely Reconstruction, in the South, and the actions of the first KKK.  There’s no racial angle to slavery, as such, but everything about the Ghiscari masters demonstrates they don’t consider their slaves to be human beings.

I’m quite sure as well, that Martin is not writing an apologia for slavery, despite what Adam Feldman and Brynden Fish may think.

[The Bard of Banefort]

8 hours ago, SeanF said:

I don’t think that initially, the Slavers Bay storyline (much of which was written pre-2003) had anything to do with Iraq.  Other than a vaguely Middle Eastern setting, the slavery seemed much more applicable to the most brutal forms of slaving in the ancient world than to any modern society.

I suspect the Iraq war did influence the storyline post 2003, but other influences are surely Reconstruction, in the South, and the actions of the first KKK.  There’s no racial angle to slavery, as such, but everything about the Ghiscari masters demonstrates they don’t consider their slaves to be human beings.

I’m quite sure as well, that Martin is not writing an apologia for slavery, despite what Adam Feldman and Brynden Fish may think.

That wasn’t my takeaway from Feldman. I read it as an argument that Dany was making progress, but that it’s something that moves incrementally and isn’t compatible with her leaving Meereen to invade Westeros. I think there is a parallel to modern interventionism too, even before the post-9/11 wars: you break it, you buy it. Invading another country to depose a leader may be successful in the short term, but once you’re there, you can never guarantee long-standing reform unless you stay there. Consider the toppling of the Shah in Iran or how the Gulf War revitalized Al-Qaeda. Dany did what she believed was righteous in the moment, and now she has to deal with the consequences.

[The Bard of Banefort]

It’s weird how, considering how spoilerphobic GOT was, HOTD basically releases the entire episode in stills before the episode premieres. For whatever reason, they released images from Daemon and Rhaenyra’s wedding earlier today. I guess they want to make sure that the Daemyra shippers watch tonight.

[Ran]

26 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

It’s weird how, considering how spoilerphobic GOT was, HOTD basically releases the entire episode in stills before the episode premieres. For whatever reason, they released images from Daemon and Rhaenyra’s wedding earlier today. I guess they want to make sure that the Daemyra shippers watch tonight.

"They" are probably not GoT official channels, or? All evidence suggests the episode has leaked and people end up posting screen caps from the leaks. I've noticed that on some other weeks where a lot of images showed up with no sourcing that I could find, with the quality suggesting they were screen captures rather than the higher-quality images HBO tends to circulate.

[Lord Varys]

There are lots and lots of stills and stuff from official accounts. They want people to see that stuff.

[SeanF]

51 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

That wasn’t my takeaway from Feldman. I read it as an argument that Dany was making progress, but that it’s something that moves incrementally and isn’t compatible with her leaving Meereen to invade Westeros. I think there is a parallel to modern interventionism too, even before the post-9/11 wars: you break it, you buy it. Invading another country to depose a leader may be successful in the short term, but once you’re there, you can never guarantee long-standing reform unless you stay there. Consider the toppling of the Shah in Iran or how the Gulf War revitalized Al-Qaeda. Dany did what she believed was righteous in the moment, and now she has to deal with the consequences.

My take on Feldman is that he thought that the slavers were making a very generous concession by allowing the Meereenese freedmen to remain free;  and that in turn, it was a fair settlement to reinstate slavery and slave-trading in the rest of the region, to make Hizdahr the king, and to reopen the fighting pits.

I thought he fundamentally lacked empathy towards the slaves, and was arguing for moral equivalence between slavers and freedmen.  I had no sense that he saw anything wrong with either the terrorist campaign mounted by the Sons of the Harpy, the massacre of Astapor’s population by the Yunkish, or their invasion of Meereen.  The emphasis was all upon what Daenerys should be offering these bastards, rather than upon crushing them.

Overall, I found the arguments expressed in the Meereenese Blot disgusting, elitist, and inhumane.

Edited October 2, 2022 by SeanF

[Ran]

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

There are lots and lots of stills and stuff from official accounts. They want people to see that stuff.

Which ones? I looked at the HouseOfDragon and GoT twitter accounts and see nothing.

They have released about a dozen official stills. They have the preview trailer, of course, but where are these alleged stills of a wedding? 

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

My take on Feldman is that he thought that the slavers were making a very generous concession by allowing the Meereenese freedmen to remain free;  and that in turn, it was a fair settlement to reinstate slavery and slave-trading in the rest of the region, to make Hizdahr the king, and to reopen the fighting pits.

I thought he fundamentally lacked empathy towards the slaves, and was arguing for moral equivalence between slavers and freedmen.

Overall, I found the arguments expressed in the Meereenese Blot disgusting, elitist, and inhumane.

It has been a long time since I read this, but unless I misremember that the core of his argumentation - that Dany actually is making progress, that the slavers are actually compromising and wanting to work with her - is dead wrong. They don't. Or at least the core of their leadership, 'the Harpy' (if she exists), doesn't. Hizdahr doesn't, either, and Reznak is kind of in camp Dany in the beginning, but as the power balance shifts and Dany moves away from emulating Aegon the Conqueror, more trying to be Aenys, pleasing everybody, the old guards start to sharpen their knives again. And Reznak either goes back to them or always kept a foot in their camp.

The best take on the Meereenese thing is to assume that the Green Grace and her people wanted to use Hizdahr - who is very connected with the other Ghiscari cities - to prevent the destruction of Meereen and to create a peace with the other cities. They also seem to represent a rejuvenated party among the old guard, a faction that plans to use the opportunity given by Dany's culling of the ruling oligarchy to establish a strong central government - a Ghiscari king in the person of Hizdahr (who would be controlled by the Harpy cabal).

The moment Dany showed weakness and refused to use the dragons against the Yunkai'i and to defend the Astapori, it was clear that she was ripe for the kill.

The idea that there is another layer of conspiracy there, of people pretending to keep in camp Dany (the Shavepate and his gang) only to truly have their own agenda feels to be too much. Hizdahr lied about his eating habits when confronted by Barristan - he knew about the poisoned locusts -, and he also wanted to kill the dragons. The Green Grace's own cousin is the guy who complains about the weaver girls ... and when Dany doesn't rule in his favor the Sons of the Harpy mysteriously target said weavers. It is all pretty obvious if you look close enough.

It is also equally clear that the core Meereenese old guard wants to restore slavery as it was. It is their way of life, and the way they got obscenely rich. They would never give it up nor agree to end the slave trade.

What is good in the analysis is thematic take on things. George really tries to tell a complex story there, about war and peace and ruling, and how things do have consequences and stuff. But Dany putting on the floppy ears, Dany indulging the slavers and their culture, is dead wrong. When we see what happens to her, when she marries Hizdahr in the Ghiscari way, when the Yunkai'i turn her into the little Harpy girl atop that cake ... it is quite clear the author is wanting the reader to cry out: 'Dany! Get away! GET AWAY! They will kill you!' It is not quite as foreboding as the buildup for the Red Wedding, but you can compare it to the Purple Wedding. The chapters drag on and on and you just want it to be over, like Tyrion does ... and then Joff is dead. Just as Dany nearly died in the Pit.

Just now, Ran said:

Which ones? I looked at the HouseOfDragon and GoT twitter accounts and see nothing.

They have released about a dozen official stills. They have the preview trailer, of course, but where are these alleged stills of a wedding? 

I try not to look at things too much. Didn't saw stills from the wedding, but stuff of Viserys and the family standing around what seemed to be Laena's funeral. Those were hi-res pictures that looked official Pictures from the wedding (if the beach stuff and the blood-and-dagger hands stuff is the wedding) have been flowing around since the beginning, both as spy photo versions and early released stills (remember the first official pictures of Daemon and Rhaenyra were from those couple of scenes).

Ah, okay, now I also saw pictures of the wedding. Those could be from a leak, I guess.

[C.T. Phipps]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

9 hours ago, SeanF said:

 

That wasn’t my takeaway from Feldman. I read it as an argument that Dany was making progress, but that it’s something that moves incrementally and isn’t compatible with her leaving Meereen to invade Westeros. I think there is a parallel to modern interventionism too, even before the post-9/11 wars: you break it, you buy it. Invading another country to depose a leader may be successful in the short term, but once you’re there, you can never guarantee long-standing reform unless you stay there. Consider the toppling of the Shah in Iran or how the Gulf War revitalized Al-Qaeda. Dany did what she believed was righteous in the moment, and now she has to deal with

My view of Martin's story was actually informed by Season 8 and the idea that Daeneyrs is going to go mad in the books but it needs to start from a place that makes sense. My idea is that Daeny is going to learn exactly the wrong lesson from Mereen, which is, "Dragons do not sew." Basically, the idea that Daenerys is going to find that all of her diplomatic efforts, mercy, and attempts to do right by the locals by conciliating turn out to have been thrown in her face and she will only get true success when she just flat out destroys the entirety of the slave holding ruling class completely.

So when she does arrive in Westeros, she susses out the plots against her a lot more rapidly and has completely lost her patience for dealing with them through diplomacy.

But Westeors isn't Mereen.

And thus the road to a severing of the Three Heads of the Dragon (the third being Tyrion) begins.

[SeanF]

41 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

My view of Martin's story was actually informed by Season 8 and the idea that Daeneyrs is going to go mad in the books but it needs to start from a place that makes sense. My idea is that Daeny is going to learn exactly the wrong lesson from Mereen, which is, "Dragons do not sew." Basically, the idea that Daenerys is going to find that all of her diplomatic efforts, mercy, and attempts to do right by the locals by conciliating turn out to have been thrown in her face and she will only get true success when she just flat out destroys the entirety of the slave holding ruling class completely.

So when she does arrive in Westeros, she susses out the plots against her a lot more rapidly and has completely lost her patience for dealing with them through diplomacy.

But Westeors isn't Mereen.

And thus the road to a severing of the Three Heads of the Dragon (the third being Tyrion) begins.

Could be, although like @Lord Varysi’m expecting the really horrific acts of cruelty, as retribution is visited upon the Lannisters, Tyrells, Freys, Boltons, and their women and children and retainers, to take place prior to her arrival.  I doubt anyone will be left alive at Riverrun, The Twins, Winterfell, and the Red Keep.

[Lord Varys]

48 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

My view of Martin's story was actually informed by Season 8 and the idea that Daeneyrs is going to go mad in the books but it needs to start from a place that makes sense. My idea is that Daeny is going to learn exactly the wrong lesson from Mereen, which is, "Dragons do not sew." Basically, the idea that Daenerys is going to find that all of her diplomatic efforts, mercy, and attempts to do right by the locals by conciliating turn out to have been thrown in her face and she will only get true success when she just flat out destroys the entirety of the slave holding ruling class completely.

So when she does arrive in Westeros, she susses out the plots against her a lot more rapidly and has completely lost her patience for dealing with them through diplomacy.

But Westeors isn't Mereen.

And thus the road to a severing of the Three Heads of the Dragon (the third being Tyrion) begins.

I don't think such a take makes much sense for Daenerys' story. Daenerys might not be destined to build something - or might not get the chance to do so. But that's not going to be because she loses patience with a bunch of people she has yet to meet and interact with ... but rather because there are a bunch of ice demons with their undead hordes who are about to cut the conquering game short.

I mean, if we indulge this thing, we could come up with a scenario of Daenerys the Mad. This is possible. But it would need pages and pages of buildup still and, I daresay, a completely different personality and framework.

Dany has been Madam Plotarmor so far, to an even higher degree that Mr. Plotarmor up at the Wall. Her decisions usually favor her cause, almost as if a divine hand were guiding her actions (or prophecy). And unhinged, cruel Daenerys should be an different track - Drogo shouldn't have been her 'sun-and-stars' but a cruel, stinking, ugly rapist, a man she finally rid himself with a cudgel to his head. Her view of other people should be very negative, she should see betrayal and treason everywhere, believing the only thing people deserved was a smack on the head or burst of dragonflame in the face.

She should have no empathy for slaves, no desire to help them at all, merely taking the wealth and resources of the Ghiscari to buy more swords for herself.

But we have nothing of this sort so far.

Our Daenerys could still develop more into this kind of character ... but it would, again, need pages and pages of mundane politicking and betrayals piling up. Think about how she is still unaware that there was a plot against her. Yes, she wonders whether Belwas' retching was a sign that something was amiss, but she doesn't feel betrayed by her Meereenese people yet. And there is no chance that this whole plot is not long resolved and dealt with by the time she returns.

If we look at mundane politics, Westeros would also have to be insane to offer the Dragon Queen organized resistance ... if, as it seems, she comes to Westeros as the God Empress of the Dothraki. They just could never stand against such a power. And half of the lords of Westeros or wouldn't even want to, considering her blood claim to the Iron Throne. But even the ones fervently supporting Aegon/Euron/Stannis/whoever wouldn't be as stupid as not seriously considering abandoning the sinking ship.

Daenerys' forces are likely to sack and plunder many or all the mainland Free Cities as well as other slaver cities before going to Westeros. Daenerys will have an insane amount of movable wealth. She could, most likely, literally buy herself the Iron Throne. She can afford to be generous, she can afford to win people over, she is no rush at all.

Vice versa, her potential adversaries in Westeros are pitiful pretenders at best. Stannis is a ragged pretender with a couple of soldiers left (and 20,000 sellswords which Dany could easily just bribe won't change that), Tommen may long be dead, Aegon is a fake boy whose true identity might leak before Dany actually shows up, and Euron is a pirate-king, basically. Still, he might become a real danger with sorcery and stuff, but he is never going to control even a fraction of the resources Daenerys controls.

All of Dany's potential enemies will have to use brute force to take power and they will have to use the stick rather than the carrot to remain in power. Euron got pretty far with the carrot while seducing his Ironborn ... but that won't work with the Westerosi people. Dany's enemies are likely to commit atrocities both to gain power and to keep it. She, on the other hand, will have little to no incentive of doing so.

For Dany to become a Mad Queen she would have to suffer a series of horrible betrayals and nearly crushing defeats. She would have to arrive in Westeros as a beggar, dependent on the good will of many of the lords, she has to be desperate enough that only brute and cruel blows against a defiant or defenseless enemy could, in her mind, convince her enemy to bend the knee.

But it is just not very likely that this is going to happen. Dany's entire journey so far is one of her acquiring strength - strength that will eventually be used (also) in the fight against the Others. She is not going to lose all that on her way to Westeros.

In that sense - 'dragons planting no trees' might just mean 'dragons are not meant for quiet family life and retirement to a house with a red door', not 'dragons are only good for destruction'.

It also stands to reason that after what's about to happen in winter Daenerys could kill babies by the scores and people would still not particularly care unless they are their babies. Because Westeros will suffer such horrible atrocities that peace time morals will almost look like a fantasy novel. It is pretty bad already, and it will get much worse.

[C.T. Phipps]

Basically, I go with the view that D&D more or less followed Martin's synopsis for the finale. Just a bare bones annoying one.

* Aegon will prove to be an unimportant imposter

* Bran will be king

* Jon will kill Daenerys

* Madness will take the Last Targaryen

And so on.

 

[RhaenysBee]

Very much late to the game, but I’ll share my thoughts anyway. 

Things that I liked: 

Set, costumes, dragon cgi, world building of dragon culture, Viserys, Laena, Laena and Daemon dynamic, introduction of the kids. 

Things that I disliked: 

Time jump recasting is nuts. It’s inconsistent in the way it was only Rhaenyra’s generation that aged. No other character (Cole - I will get back to this -, the Hand, Daemon, Viserys, Larys) was recast. This could work, if you consistently aged this generation with makeup and a bit of latex, which they didn’t. Only Viserys was aged with makeup. This lands us with Larys, Ser Whatshisname and the Hand looking like they are the same generation even though the Hand is the father of the former two. Laena was recast for ONE episode, but you can’t put make up on criston cole to pretend that he isn’t the same age as he was 15 years ago in the story? 

So Criston Cole of no name origin beats a guest at a royal wedding to pulp, in fact, he beats the paramour of the future prince consort to pulp and gets away without consequences, in fact, he is training heirs ten years on in fighting (in which he has proven to be completely unstable and dangerous) and is still kings guard. Ser Whatshisname, son to the Hand of the King, Heir to Harrenhal and commander of the city watch punches Criston Cole and bloodies his upper lip and he is fired. I get that he left because of the rumors, but that’s no excuse for Cole being in the position that he is. utter nonsense. 

For the love of everything dear, could you be in any possible way LESS subtle about “tv represents birth in a false right, please pay attention, because we are going to correct this now” and “men have no idea about birth, please pay attention, because we are going to show how much”. Stop. Stop it. Don’t. Just don’t drag me out of the world you are trying to immerse me in. Please for the love of everything dear, apply some subtlety to your dialogue. You can convey both messages in a far more elevated manner. Pat on the shoulder for you for trying to be virtuous and representing childbirth in a way that’s considered appropriate for 2022. Please do it in a way that doesn’t ridicule your characters and world building and fits the context of your scene. You can do this if you want, but then do it right. 

there are rats in the king’s room? Because sure, there are rats in the castle, in the cellars, on the ships, in the storage rooms, in the kitchens, on the corridors perhaps, but in the king’s room, really? I can’t tell if this is realistic but it’s sure off-putting and again and I’m not entirely sure what’s the purpose of this shot. 

What else… Rhaenyra And Alicent actors are very different from their younger counterparts, which wouldn’t be an issue if the show gave us a bit more time to understand how and why they changed the way they did.

The exposition about the dragon and rider bond and the 1 minute dragon riding scene AND the reminiscing about her claiming Vhaegar when she was 15 still weren’t enough together to invoke any emotion in me when Laena ordered Vhaegar to roast her. Maybe if Laena had been part of the story and we had actually seen her claim Vhaegar and that their bond was meaningful and important to both of them, maybe then I would have felt something. Show don’t tell. Roughly the same goes for Ser Whatshisname. Was I supposed to recognize this person from a previous episode? Because I swear this was the first time I ever heard of his existence and his confrontation with Cole and two cutesy minutes with his sons was far from enough to make me feel anything when he left or even when he burned in that fire.

This is one of the biggest issues I have with the show. I just don’t care. I don’t care about Rhaenyra because I don’t like her. I don’t care about Daemon because I don’t like him. I don’t care about the politics because I don’t know enough to root for anything or anyone. I don’t care about Cole, Larys, the Hand, Laenor, Laena, Ser Whatshisname, the kids, because I know next to nothing about them. I care some about Viserys but literally nothing happens to him. I used to care some about young Alicent, but time jumps always ripped me from the opportunity to really sympathize with her struggle and grow to really care about her, because we never had time for that and she’s now a completely different person than last episode. I don’t know how she became this way so I don’t care. 

Care is a strong word but I do want to know if a white/grey horse and a black horse can have a bay foal. I think they can but I may be totally wrong. I also wonder where Corlys and Rhaenys are. 

Edited October 8, 2022 by RhaenysBee

[Adaneth]

On 9/26/2022 at 7:54 PM, Mithras said:

D&D missed a golden opportunity to foreshadow Tommen's suicide. They should have written a sex scene for Jaime&Cersei in the first season at the same room in which Jaime would finish from the same spot.

And have another scene at the balcony years later, where Cersei tells Jaime: "We conceived Tommen here. Do you remeber that day?" 

Edited October 21, 2022 by Adaneth