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[Spoilers] Episode 106 Discussion


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39 minutes ago, Stenkarazine said:

To me, the fact that they are dragonriders is an added element weighing in favour of neutralizing them. Imagine the threat if but one of the brothers decided to press his claim. 

That threat is ever existent. What if Aegon the Younger tried to usurp Jace? What if Aerea used Balerion against her uncle? What if Aemon and Baelon turned against each other? What if Daemon got really fed up and roasted his dragonless brother? What if the Velaryons took advantage on the fact that Daemon was away and striked against Rhaenyra's young dragon and Viserys? What if...

At the end of the day, these people are family and the likelihood of them trying to kill each other depends entirely on how much they care about the other besides each other's ambitions.

 

Rhaenyra didn't have any reason to believe her brothers would act against her and her brothers had every reason to know that trying to take the throne from her was the one thing guaranteed to make her strike.

But at the end of the day, the Greens, and by Greens I mean Cole, Alicent and Otto, believed they were going to be killed because they would try to get the Throne and they would try and get the Throne because they would going to be killed. 

The solution to that circular reasoning is obviously not try and get the Throne... But they were not going to do that so...

 

 

 

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Normally it’s just us book snobs who complain about things not making sense, but there are a surprising number of people online who are really annoyed that Criston Cole faced no consequences for killing Joffrey.

I am pleased by all the RhaenyraxHarwin shipping :wub: I wonder if the showrunners are starting to regret giving him and Laena so little screen time, now that so many fans are lamenting it.

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23 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Certainly once you have sat the Iron Throne, or claimed it, there is no way you can stand down, and expect to survive.

One of the many stupidities of Season 8 of GOT was the notion that Daenerys should stand down in favour ofJon.

Jon actually shows what the real stupidity is. There's a scene in THE GOBLIN EMPEROR by Katherine Addison which sums up how a coup would have gone in Jon's name.

Spoiler

"We're overthrowing your brother in your name."

"No."

"What?"

"I'm not joining your coup."

And they're left with the fact they now have to kill him too and the coup utterly falls apart.

 

Edited by C.T. Phipps
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13 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Jon actually shows what the real stupidity is. There's a scene in THE GOBLIN EMPEROR by Katherine Addison which sums up how a coup would have gone in Jon's name.

  Hide contents

"We're overthrowing your brother in your name."

"No."

"What?"

"I'm not joining your coup."

And they're left with the fact they now have to kill him too and the coup utterly falls apart.

 

funny thing is that Tyrion did manage to get rid of both Daenerys and Jon in one move and he did install his own chosen king in another! 

Edited by EggBlue
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32 minutes ago, frenin said:

That threat is ever existent. What if Aegon the Younger tried to usurp Jace? What if Aerea used Balerion against her uncle? What if Aemon and Baelon turned against each other? What if Daemon got really fed up and roasted his dragonless brother? What if the Velaryons took advantage on the fact that Daemon was away and striked against Rhaenyra's young dragon and Viserys? What if...

At the end of the day, these people are family and the likelihood of them trying to kill each other depends entirely on how much they care about the other besides each other's ambitions.

 

Rhaenyra didn't have any reason to believe her brothers would act against her and her brothers had every reason to know that trying to take the throne from her was the one thing guaranteed to make her strike.

But at the end of the day, the Greens, and by Greens I mean Cole, Alicent and Otto, believed they were going to be killed because they would try to get the Throne and they would try and get the Throne because they would going to be killed. 

The solution to that circular reasoning is obviously not try and get the Throne... But they were not going to do that so...

Aerea wasn't Balerion's actual rider while she lived in Westeros and was part of the succession, her first ride on his back ended her after a gruesome fashion. 

Rhaenyra has plenty reason to believe Aemond wasn't gonna suffer the Strong boys to sit the throne before him or his brother, a matter that would be all but decided the moment Rhaenyra ascended the throne herself. Once Rhaenyra sits throne, appoints a new Hand, unexiles Daemon it's over. Bastardblood would succeed Rhaenyra.

Edited by Denam_Pavel
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11 minutes ago, Denam_Pavel said:

Aerea wasn't Balerion's actual rider while she lived in Westeros and was part of the succession, her first ride on his back ended her after a gruesome fashion. 

It's a hypothetical. Aerea was obviously not going to try and wrestle the Throne anyway. It's obvious that it's a hypothetical because non of those things or were likely to happen.:rolleyes:

 

13 minutes ago, Denam_Pavel said:

Rhaenyra has plenty reason to believe Aemond wasn't gonna suffer the Strong boys to sit the throne before him or his brother

Did she?  Why? Because of the eye? Rhaenyra herself wasn't wary of him. Hell, by her words she intented to give him places of honor at her court.

Aemond himself dislikes Rhaenyra and her kids but he's pretty nonchalant. 

He asks whether Aegon is King or he has to kiss Rhaenyra's ass.

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4 minutes ago, frenin said:

It's a hypothetical. Aerea was obviously not going to try and wrestle the Throne anyway. It's obvious that it's a hypothetical because non of those things or were likely to happen.:rolleyes:

 

Did she?  Why? Because of the eye? Rhaenyra herself wasn't wary of him. Hell, by her words she intented to give him places of honor at her court.

Aemond himself dislikes Rhaenyra and her kids but he's pretty nonchalant. 

He asks whether Aegon is King or he has to kiss Rhaenyra's ass.

Someone that stands to lose their legitimate place in succession to someone he lost an eye too and has the biggest dragon by several orders of magnitude is indeed a bigger problem then any example you gave. Expect maybe Daemon, but that's why they DID do stuff about him, however ineffectually. No one was nonchalant about the Daemon problem.

Edited by Denam_Pavel
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50 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Jon actually shows what the real stupidity is. There's a scene in THE GOBLIN EMPEROR by Katherine Addison which sums up how a coup would have gone in Jon's name.

  Reveal hidden contents

"We're overthrowing your brother in your name."

"No."

"What?"

"I'm not joining your coup."

And they're left with the fact they now have to kill him too and the coup utterly falls apart.

 

Just present Jon with a fait accompli.  Daenerys is poisoned by Varys, or stabbed by Arya, or Sansa raised revolt in the North and Vale, and Jon has no option but to take the throne.

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4 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Just present Jon with a fait accompli.  Daenerys is poisoned by Varys, or stabbed by Arya, or Sansa raised revolt in the North and Vale, and Jon has no option but to take the throne.

Indeed then he can easily spin it as sacrificing himself for the good of the Realm or whatever.

Then Edric Storm* rises against him as the heir to good king Robert and defeats the conniving bastard on the field.

* or the other one that they kept in GoT.

Edited by Stenkarazine
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2 hours ago, Stenkarazine said:

See my previous answer which addresses this. You are referring to scenario where the rules of succession are not uncertain or contested. The key here is uncertainty, which can impact existing practices quite quickly.

I think the key element to consider here is not the clarity of the succession rules, but the cultural environment. Fratricide was not acceptable in medieval Europe, and George has established many times that in Westeros there is a very strong cultural taboo against kinslaying.

If we come back to the Anarchy as the inspiration for the Dance, then we should remember that Matilda didn't execute his cousin Stephen when he was her prisoner. Killing close relatives, particularly siblings, it's something that just wasn't done in medieval Europe. At least not openly.

2 hours ago, sifth said:

There either is magic at play or GRRM doesn’t know how genes work. Sorry, but the Jamie suspicion is a huge leap. GRRM needed to provide a little more evidence to Ned to get him to that point, IMO

I disagree.

Once you conclude that Cersei's children aren't Robert's, you have to start wondering who the father is.

And the thing is that a queen living in a castle will have no opportunity to spend any time alone with a man. She would normally be surrounded at all times by multiple servants, pages and ladies-in-waiting. Having lived at court for some time, it would be easy for Ned to realize that the only men with whom Cersei could spend some time alone would be Robert and  Jaime. Add to that Cersei and Jaime's closeness and pathological narcissism, and it should be enough to convince yourself that you're on the right track.

Edited by The hairy bear
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45 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

funny thing is that Tyrion did manage to get rid of both Daenerys and Jon in one move and he did install his own chosen king in another! 

Sure.  Tyrion persuaded Jon to do his wet work for him, and then he kicked him to the kerb.

 

35 minutes ago, Stenkarazine said:

The most ridiculous part of this ending is the fact that Snow managed to escape punishment scot-free. If the dragon did not immediately incinerate him on the spot, the Unsullied should have slaughtered him to pieces. 

It was absurd that he wasn’t killed on the spot, but his end was wretched.  He was cast into the wilderness, barred from marrying, treated as a criminal.

At the end, no one cared about Jon’s claim to the throne.  For Bran, Sam, Sansa, it was a pretext to strike at Daenerys, not something they wished to pursue for Jon’s sake.  Jon’s usefulness to them was at an end.

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Hmm we must have been bored by this episode if we’ve reverted back to talking about S8 lol.

EP6 felt like a straightforward adaptation of FnB. Alicent is more neurotic, and Rhaenyra is less hot-headed, but otherwise they’re very similar to their book counterparts, as are the other characters. The problem is, this clashes with the version of the characters the show spent five episodes creating, who are separate characters from the books. The Alicent from FnB isn’t a kind-hearted trad wife pimped out to a man as old as her father. The Rhaenyra of FnB isn’t a spunky, adventurous brat (aka blonde Arya). Even Daemon is more chaotic and villainous on the show than in the books. So they’ve basically given us two versions of the characters, and the audience is supposed to imagine how one morphed into the other.

And another big flaw, in my opinion, is that I don’t think they really sold Alicent and Rhaenyra’s friendship well enough to make their current animosity tragic and heartbreaking. The friendship ended with Alicent’s marriage to Viserys, and before then she was always subservient to Rhaenyra. I never got the impression that they were truly best friends.

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49 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Just present Jon with a fait accompli.  Daenerys is poisoned by Varys, or stabbed by Arya, or Sansa raised revolt in the North and Vale, and Jon has no option but to take the throne.

Except he wouldn't.

Because we know what happens when Daenerys is killed by an assassin. Jon leaves.

Jon never recovered from his death and never would have been the King in the North let alone the King in Westeros they wanted.

Edited by C.T. Phipps
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Another thing I didn't like about this episode was about how obvious they were about the paternity of Rhaenyra's children. Like it was so comically obvious that it was painful.

It frankly ruins the story because it causes so many different ripple effects. For one, Viserys looks like an even bigger, more incompetent moron. Two, it makes Laenor and Rhaenyra both look irresponsible and immature in the most unreasonable fashion.

It should be more of a mystery and uncertainty where the truth is only gradually revealed and even then...the revelation is implied not explicit.

1 hour ago, Stenkarazine said:

The most ridiculous part of this ending is the fact that Snow managed to escape punishment scot-free. If the dragon did not immediately incinerate him on the spot, the Unsullied should have slaughtered him to pieces. 

It is.

Jon Snow should've been executed.

That why I think the Snow sequel show is going to be a complete disaster.

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11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The best way would be via the Pact of Ice and Fire - if Jace doesn't end up marrying Sara Snow, he could marry Baela before his death, having a posthumous daughter who, as per the terms of the agreement, is eventually married to Cregan's son and heir. Now, we would then have to assume that this son did continue the main branch of House Stark eventually leading to Ned and children - which he doesn't seem to be doing in the book - but that could easily enough be implied in the show.

Staying with the books, there is a way that Jace's genes could have been introduced into the Stark family line through the Mountain clans, and specifically through Arya Flint.  Arra Norrey and Sara Snow apparently both grew up in Winterfell.  Presumably both being close to Cregan, they may have been fairly close to each other as well.  So it seems quite possible that Arra Norrey may have arranged a marriage alliance with someone in the Mountain clans through her family, to help out her friend Sara who may have been left with Jace's child.  

The child (or children if twins) grows up in the Mountain clans and one of his/her descendants being Arya Flint, who is then married into House Stark.

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