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[Spoilers] Episode 106 Discussion


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55 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

I think the key element to consider here is not the clarity of the succession rules, but the cultural environment. Fratricide was not acceptable in medieval Europe, and George has established many times that in Westeros there is a very strong cultural taboo against kinslaying.

If we come back to the Anarchy as the inspiration for the Dance, then we should remember that Matilda didn't execute his cousin Stephen when he was her prisoner. Killing close relatives, particularly siblings, it's something that just wasn't done in medieval Europe. At least not openly.

I disagree.

Once you conclude that Cersei's children aren't Robert's, you have to start wondering who the father is.

And the thing is that a queen living in a castle will have no opportunity to spend any time alone with a man. She would normally be surrounded at all times by multiple servants, pages and ladies-in-waiting. Having lived at court for some time, it would be easy for Ned to realize that the only men with whom Cersei could spend some time alone would be Robert and  Jaime. Add to that Cersei and Jaime's closeness and pathological narcissism, and it should be enough to convince yourself that you're on the right track.

Robert seemed to find time to meet with all sorts of women, during this marriage to Cersei. Heck the place she lives, is filled with trap doors and secret passages. It's really not that hard to believe that she could be having an affair with almost anyone inside and outside the castle.

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8 minutes ago, sifth said:

Robert seemed to find time to meet with all sorts of women, during this marriage to Cersei. Heck the place she lives, is filled with trap doors and secret passages. It's really not that hard to believe that she could be having an affair with almost anyone inside and outside the castle.

Robert is not only a man but an accomplished warrior/general in his own right. Plus, look at the size of him.

Cersei is a woman who - despite her great height - lacks the strength, experience and size that she would need to be able to defend herself from other men. Cersei, for all her attitude, doesn't even carry any weapons of any kind.

 

Robert is also the King with a capital K while Cersei is just the queen consort.

Not at all the same.

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28 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Another thing I didn't like about this episode was about how obvious they were about the paternity of Rhaenyra's children. Like it was so comically obvious that it was painful.

It frankly ruins the story because it causes so many different ripple effects. For one, Viserys looks like an even bigger, more incompetent moron. Two, it makes Laenor and Rhaenyra both look irresponsible and immature in the most unreasonable fashion.

It should be more of a mystery and uncertainty where the truth is only gradually revealed and even then...the revelation is implied not explicit.

 

again , grandma problem ! they should have given Baratheon looks to Rhaenys and Arryn looks to Aemma . I mean .. in the book only Green faction were so sure about boys' parentage and even among them someone like Eustace (who had every reason to despise Blacks after he was made to WALK to Oldtown ) fully believe the boys are Laenor's.

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33 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Another thing I didn't like about this episode was about how obvious they were about the paternity of Rhaenyra's children. Like it was so comically obvious that it was painful.

It frankly ruins the story because it causes so many different ripple effects. For one, Viserys looks like an even bigger, more incompetent moron. Two, it makes Laenor and Rhaenyra both look irresponsible and immature in the most unreasonable fashion.

It should be more of a mystery and uncertainty where the truth is only gradually revealed and even then...the revelation is implied not explicit.

It is.

Jon Snow should've been executed.

That why I think the Snow sequel show is going to be a complete disaster.

I fear it will just be Jon having wacky adventures with Tormund.

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23 minutes ago, Denam_Pavel said:

I think it's asking a lot to believe Sara Snow exists. No one makes any mention of her existence other then Mushroom, who says Jacaerys came back married to her.

Maybe it's the role for Elizabeth Olsen.

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20 hours ago, sifth said:

Really? What did they do?

Shit it happened so much on that show

The biggest example is the time skip between season 2 and 3. After the time skip, Rick became openly disrespectful of his wife Lori...like to the point where he was coming off as an abusive husband. When right before the time skip, she was afraid of him and he was trying to get her to understand him.

But then

Spoiler

She dies in childbirth and he's a blubbering, hallucinating mess.

We never find out why he suddenly became incapable of speaking to her without growling or yelling nor did we ever find out why she had such a change of heart.

 

There's also the case of Oceanside when they did a 7 year time skip in season 9.

Spoiler

Basically, the women of the Oceanside start secretly murdering reformed villains. A couple of the main cast find out the truth but they turn a blind eye to it because 1) they too are bitter about it and 2) they wish to use the murders as a smokescreen.

In turn it basically ignites this miniature civil war within the camps that draws all these zombies to them. Rick ends up sacrificing himself to kill all these zombies. However, no one really knows what Rick has done until after it has already done...they were too busy fighting. And the fighting doesn't even stop right away lol

After the time skip, nothing happens. Oceanside disappears and we never see how that whole situation was handled.

 

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43 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

again , grandma problem ! they should have given Baratheon looks to Rhaenys and Arryn looks to Aemma . I mean .. in the book only Green faction were so sure about boys' parentage and even among them someone like Eustace (who had every reason to despise Blacks after he was made to WALK to Oldtown ) fully believe the boys are Laenor's.

Yes.

I have a feeling that Condal was the one who pushed for all of the Targaryens and Velaryons to have silver hair. Moronic decision that was.

If they were really so hellbent on giving the entire royal family (Targaryen and Velaryon) alike a certain look, then Aemma should have been made a blonde and Rhaenys' hair should have turned completely silver/white after the last time skip.

Because it strains credulity past the point of plausibility for Alicent to be the ONLY one in King's Landing to notice and to be bothered by the fact Laenor's kids are plainly not his kids.

It would be forgivable if they didn't make Laena's children darker than her. The Targaryen girls should be either lighter than Laena or have the same skin tone as her...not darker lol wtf

 

I will say that Jacaerys and Lucerys do not look "traditionally" white. Their actors (particularly the one for Jacaerys) look spicy white: very curly hair and swarthy facial features. Lucerys has very curly hair and Jacaerys has the narrow, almost Asiatic eyes of young Laenor.

But it's still ridiculous.

Edited by BlackLightning
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54 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Another thing I didn't like about this episode was about how obvious they were about the paternity of Rhaenyra's children. Like it was so comically obvious that it was painful.

It frankly ruins the story because it causes so many different ripple effects. For one, Viserys looks like an even bigger, more incompetent moron. Two, it makes Laenor and Rhaenyra both look irresponsible and immature in the most unreasonable fashion.

It should be more of a mystery and uncertainty where the truth is only gradually revealed and even then...the revelation is implied not explicit.

There really is not any mystery about the boys’ paternity in the book. GRRM is very unsubtle with regard to physical appearance, in addition to the relationship between Rhaenyra and Laenor.

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39 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

I mean .. in the book only Green faction were so sure about boys' parentage and even among them someone like Eustace (who had every reason to despise Blacks after he was made to WALK to Oldtown ) fully believe the boys are Laenor's.

The way I just cackled at the bold part...

I hate Unwin Peake with a passion but his dismissal of Eustace never ceases to make me laugh out loud.

 

For the record though, when Septon Eustace was kicked out of the city, he was forced to walk to Stoney Sept (which is in the Riverlands) not the Starry Sept (which is the one in Oldtown).

It's still very far but...just not that far.

Edited by BlackLightning
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15 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Because it strains credulity past the point of plausibility for Alicent to be the ONLY one in King's Landing to notice and to be bothered by the fact Laenor's kids are plainly not his kids.

 

I don't think that's it at all. I think basically everyone knows, but if the king doesn't see it, they're not going to be the ones to try and break it to him.

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18 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

I have a feeling that Sapochnik was the one who pushed for all of the Targaryens and Velaryons to have silver hair. Moronic decision that was.

On the contrary, I think Sapochnik is the one who wants the characters to be as distinguishable as possible. He was the one who wanted Rhaenys' name to be changed because he was worried that people would confuse her with Rhaenyra, but was overruled by Condal.

Edited by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy
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5 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

There really is not any mystery about the boys’ paternity in the book. GRRM is very unsubtle with regard to physical appearance, in addition to the relationship between Rhaenyra and Laenor.

There is.

Because the only ones who really harp on and on about it are the people who have ulterior motives: Alicent, Otto and the Velaryon cousins. It was clearly just another tool Alicent and Otto tried to use in their quest to undermine and disinherit Rhaenyra and the Velaryon cousins only wanted Driftmark for themselves...the craziest thing about it is that the Velaryons were themselves grasping at straws and were only repeating the rumors that the Hightower queen and her father had started...which, again, circles back around to the Hightower plot to get rid of Rhaenyra.

 

In the end, GRRM still made it so that four out of Ned's five children don't look anything like him. And now that R+L=J has been confirmed, the same goes for Rhaegar. Two out of his three children look nothing like him. And if Young Griff is to be believed as the son of Rhaegar, then that turns Rhaegar's one out of three into zero out of three. Because Young Griff does not look like Rhaegar. You want to know who did look like Rhaegar? His brother and sister.

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1 minute ago, Ran said:

I don't think that's it at all. I think basically everyone knows, but if the king doesn't see it, they're not going to be the ones to try and break it to him.

Yeah, Alicent and the Kingsguard are permanent, everyone else can be dismissed like Otto or Harwin at any time.

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14 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

There really is not any mystery about the boys’ paternity in the book. GRRM is very unsubtle with regard to physical appearance, in addition to the relationship between Rhaenyra and Laenor.

 

1 minute ago, Ran said:

I don't think that's it at all. I think basically everyone knows, but if the king doesn't see it, they're not going to be the ones to try and break it to him.

it's not a mystery for the reader . but it seems foolish to me that so many characters were reluctant to see the truth if there were no reason for them to convince themselves that boys are Laenor's.... especially the people who have absolutely no gain to dismiss the rumors , for example someone like Eustace . 

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1 minute ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

On the contrary, I think Sapochnik is the one who wants the characters to be as distinguishable as possible. He was the one who wanted Rhaenys name to be changed, because he was worried that people would confuse her with Rhaenyra, but was overruled by Condal.

I meant to say Condal. My mistake.

Condal was right to overrule Sapochnik in regards to the name however.

5 minutes ago, Ran said:

I don't think that's it at all. I think basically everyone knows, but if the king doesn't see it, they're not going to be the ones to try and break it to him.

The thing is that if everyone knows, no one cares because no one is bothered by it.

Not even Criston Cole.

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11 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

There is.

Because the only ones who really harp on and on about it are the people who have ulterior motives: Alicent, Otto and the Velaryon cousins. It was clearly just another tool Alicent and Otto tried to use in their quest to undermine and disinherit Rhaenyra and the Velaryon cousins only wanted Driftmark for themselves...the craziest thing about it is that the Velaryons were themselves grasping at straws and were only repeating the rumors that the Hightower queen and her father had started...which, again, circles back around to the Hightower plot to get rid of Rhaenyra.

 

In the end, GRRM still made it so that four out of Ned's five children don't look anything like him. And now that R+L=J has been confirmed, the same goes for Rhaegar. Two out of his three children look nothing like him. And if Young Griff is to be believed as the son of Rhaegar, then that turns Rhaegar's one out of three into zero out of three. Because Young Griff does not look like Rhaegar. You want to know who did look like Rhaegar? His brother and sister.

The Starks do look like their other parent however. And Griff still has his hair and eyes from the Valyrian side of the family, his eyes just aren't the exact shade Rhaegar's was. The Strong boys look like someone altogether not known to be their blood. They don't look Baratheon either. They might all three of them take after their Arryn greatgrandfather, traits that completely skipped Aemma and Rhaenyra, against every other family tree they stem from going back to many generations of inbreeding of Valyrian traits that's the only hope in the books.

It's possible but it's hardly crazy ang grasping at straws to just think they more likely take after their own father. 

Edited by Denam_Pavel
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I feel bad for Emma D’Arcy. I saw some people predicting months ago that the Rhaenyra switch wouldn’t go over well, and that seems to be the case for a portion of the audience. Although as I mentioned earlier, Rhaenyra is also written quite differently now.

Jace was my favorite character from the Dance, and so far he’s been promising. I liked how he got back up after Aegon knocked him over and charged him with his wooden sword. I’m glad they addressed the very obvious solution of betrothing him to Helaena, and I will forever mourn for this couple that never was. I predict that they’ll build him up as a Robb Stark/Jon Snow type character and then kill him off at the end of next season.

Assuming S2 ends with Rhaenyra taking King’s Landing, we’re going to lose Jaehaerys, Rhaenys, Otto, Criston Cole, Tyland Lannister, Viserys (fake-out), Jace, and probably some other characters that I’m forgetting in one season. That’s way more severe than TWOT5K. I think people will either find that exhilarating, or they’ll get whiplash like with the most recent episode. Granted, the show might start to stray further from the source material, since many of the main characters will need to have subplots created for them in order to give them more screen time.

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5 hours ago, Stenkarazine said:

My main problem with this episode is the fact that Daeron has not been mentioned and thus I fear he has been cut entirely from the show. I have read somewhere that he could appear in Season 2 à la Stannis, but running against this hypothese is the fact that the episode had many opportunities (dialogue between Alicent and Aegon; or maybe a throwaway line by Visery while watching his sons training in the yard) to mention him, even in passing, and did not.

Oh, definitely. Aside from Helaena, Daeron is arguably the most likeable character the greens have, and him not existing in the show will make it even harder for people to root for them. Especially after this episode.

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