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[Spoilers] Episode 106 Discussion


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2 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

I fully agree. He should have taken Alicent as a mistress and if she refused to be one some other noblewoman instead. Given the existence of Trystane Truefyre and the rumor that Viserys cheated on Aemma as well as his fun-loving personality its clear the man had no qualms about sleeping around or potentially siring bastards.

Nonetheless, the birth of a healthy male heir would be reason enough for Viserys to publicly go back on his decision considering Westeros is a male-dominated military aristocracy.

In the show, Daemon indicates they went to brothels together.

But yeah, if he takes Alicent or some noblewoman as mistress, he can keep Rhaenyra as heir and legitimize one of the bastards if she dies before him.

 

Just now, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

Honestly, the lack of royal bastards outside of Aegon II and Aegon IV is implausible as well as disappointing. I could understand Baelon, Viserys II, Maekar, etc. remaining lifelong widowers if they'd taken mistresses but nope.

We probably just never heard about them. Doesn't mean they didn't exist

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1 minute ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

Honestly, the lack of royal bastards outside of Aegon II and Aegon IV is implausible as well as disappointing. I could understand Baelon, Viserys II, Maekar, etc. remaining lifelong widowers if they'd taken mistresses but nope.

I think that’s George’s romantic side coming out. Usually men who have affairs in this story are portrayed as unworthy rulers. I’m actually glad for it because I think it would make this already dark story more nihilistic if all of the men were philanderers.

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2 minutes ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

We probably just never heard about them. Doesn't mean they didn't exist

For all that Martin complains about Tolkien eternalism, Westeros is just as guilty. Houses seem to stretch back for millennia and control the same territory perpetually with the exception of Harrenhal. In real life, land constantly changed hands and people were always naming their bastards Lords and Ladies of new territories that got removed from losers of conflicts or had territory taken from them for other reasons.

As mentioned, King Stephen lost most of his support when he attempted to fill some of his promises by stealing land from the Church.

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4 minutes ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

In the show, Daemon indicates they went to brothels together.

But yeah, if he takes Alicent or some noblewoman as mistress, he can keep Rhaenyra as heir and legitimize one of the bastards if she dies before him.

We probably just never heard about them. Doesn't mean they didn't exist

Exactly.

Eh, mistresses were kind of a big deal.

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8 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I think that’s George’s romantic side coming out. Usually men who have affairs in this story are portrayed as unworthy rulers. I’m actually glad for it because I think it would make this already dark story more nihilistic if all of the men were philanderers.

I wouldn't say nihilistic so much as depressingly realistic but to each their own.

Edited by The Grey Wolf Strikes Back
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5 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

For all that Martin complains about Tolkien eternalism, Westeros is just as guilty. Houses seem to stretch back for millennia and control the same territory perpetually with the exception of Harrenhal. In real life, land constantly changed hands and people were always naming their bastards Lords and Ladies of new territories that got removed from losers of conflicts or had territory taken from them for other reasons.

As mentioned, King Stephen lost most of his support when he attempted to fill some of his promises by stealing land from the Church.

The fact that according to F & B none of the pre-Conquest kings ever bothered to implement a uniform law, tax, or road system within their domains is especially egregious.

Btw, was Geoffrey of Anjou really that hated? Guy was like 10+ years younger than his wife. (If I recall correctly she was 28 to his 15 when they got married. Also, I find it kind of funny that Henry II had two brothers but no one remembers them because they died in their 20s without having sired any children.)

And just how many nobles died in the White Ship Accident? I always got the impression it was a rather small, if intimate affair comprised of William Adelin and his closest friends/kin.

Edited by The Grey Wolf Strikes Back
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5 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

The fact that according to F & B none of the pre-Conquest kings ever bothered to implement a uniform law, tax, or road system within their domains is especially egregious.

Btw, was Geoffrey of Anjou really that hated? Guy was like 10+ years younger than his wife. (If I recall correctly she was 28 to his 15 when they got married. Also, I find it kind of funny that Henry II had two brothers but no one remembers them because they died in their 20s without having sired any children.)

And just how many nobles died in the White Ship Accident? I always got the impression it was a rather small, if intimate affair comprised of William Adelin and his closest friends/kin.

1. Yes, though how much of this was justified versus just sort of xenophobia and rumor mongering is anyone's guess.

2. About 300 drowned so pretty fucking huge. Though obviously the King's heirs and his inner circle was the biggest most memorable lost. Stephen himself only survived due to bowel troubles.

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Just now, The Bard of Banefort said:

Sucks for the wives though

Only if you expect fidelity. Part of the thing is that Catelyn Starks are common but so are people who consider it just part of life or plan to take their own lovers after their husbands keel over.

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1 minute ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Only if you expect fidelity. Part of the thing is that Catelyn Starks are common but so are people who consider it just part of life or plan to take their own lovers after their husbands keel over.

It’s kind of like how women in this series consider being sold off like property by their fathers as part of life though. For the modern reader, it’s just depressing.

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43 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

This is actually something I really like in the show because Otto clearly meant that Viserys should make Rhaenyra his heir until a son is born. But Viserys has no intention of ever choosing anyone else because of the guilt of killing his wife in his pursuit of a son.

And it just leaves Otto....flummoxed.

It leaves Otto flummoxed because Otto never understood Viserys nor did he ever respect Viserys. Viserys, being the sucker that he is, doesn't see this until far too late.

I also think Otto is just taken aback by the whole thing because he doesn't understand love. He doesn't know what love or what heartbreak is. If he did, then would've been navigated the whole situation very differently.

In the end, Otto is a bad person. He doesn't have a good heart and he doesn't love his daughter (nor did he love his wife) the way that Viserys loves his. It's probably the core reason why Alicent is so miserable and envious. Her dad didn't give her the love and freedom Viserys gave to his daughter even though Alicent is objectively the better daughter of the two. But that's not the way that love works. That's why her kids end up being so messed up.

Larys tried to school her on it in his own twisted way but she couldn't hear it because neither she nor her father are able to understand the real meaning of parental love. They can't understand it on a logical level. Which is ultimately why the Greens lose the battle and lose the war while the Blacks lose the battle and win the war.

39 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

The Widow's Law does not apply to matters of succession. Otherwise, we would see other examples of daughters from first marriages inheriting ahead of sons from second marriages, which we empathically don't.

Are you sure about that?

I don't see any case where that does or doesn't happen. So on paper, the daughters of first marriages legally come before the sons of second marriages.

41 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

I don't think Criston is jealous nor is he an incel considered he joined the Kingsguard willingly. What's obvious to me is that he's bitter over the fact Rhaenyra got him* to break his vows for what was, from her perspective, a one-night stand, which really tells you something about Rhaenyra's political acumen (or lack thereof), not to mention basic human empathy, when she thinks she can proposition her bodyguard, a knight sworn to celibacy, for sex and then genuinely believe things will go back to the way they were before with nary a hitch. It may be hard for us to understand in the modern day but back then oaths MATTERED. Honor MATTERED. Especially for someone who came from nothing like Criston.

 

Criston broke his own vows.

Nobody broke his vows for him.

We saw how long it took for him to take off his armor before sex. We saw him stop to put his hands on his knees and take a moment to think...before jumping back into it.

Criston doesn't care about celibacy. How can he when he was trying to get her to marry and run off with him? It was established that he was not a virgin before joining the Kingsguard. Breaking an oath of celibacy once to have sex is very different from breaking the oath of celibacy to getting married and having children. Jeor Mormont tells us as much. That's why Mole's Town is a thing. And the Kingsguard is modeled after the Night's Watch.

You can't restore tarnished honor by tarnishing it even more. Any honor he had left after sleeping with the Crown Princess would be completely destroyed if he ran off with her to some backwater Essosi town to live as a sellsword with her as his wife and the mother of his children. Because he damn sure wouldn't have been able to afford passages to Asshai or a home in Volantis.

 

Not only that but he was also asking her to live a life of exile and poverty.

If oaths and honor mattered, Criston is violating his oaths and his honor by being so bitter. His stunts in the yard were oathbreaking (he's supposed to be training and treating these kids all equally as they are all royal) and dishonorable. As was his name-calling of Rhaenyra.

 

That's the problem with Team Green. They talk about all these really great things (honor, tradition, legal precedent, duty, family values) but they can't back it up at all. Not only are they hypocrites but they showcase more moral failures than the Blacks do. What makes it worse is that they are generally incompetent as well.

 

1 hour ago, Colonel Green said:

Lots of people in Westeros care about bastardy. It’s kind of a big theme in the ASOIAF books.

No one cared in Fire and Blood, which is a part of the ASOIAF series.

The only ones who cared about the bastardy of Rhaenyra's sons are people who either: hated Rhaenyra and wanted her out of the picture, had something to gain by Rhaenyra being out of the picture or both.

Granted, Rhaenyra and Laenor were complete idiots.

1 hour ago, Colonel Green said:

Jaehaerys would never have passed a law that put daughters ahead of their brothers.

Well he did.

It doesn't matter because Jaehaerys was very inconsistent and an all-out chauvinist. Strange considering the fact that he was surrounded by powerful women who proved that they were more than capable.

In fact, Jaehaerys lowkey did worse. He did to Aerea what Maegor tried to do to him and all his siblings

1 hour ago, Colonel Green said:

The king could legitimize them. But he has not. He is pretending the crime was not committed.

.Let's get this straight. The crime is not that Rhaenyra had bastards. The crime is that she is passing her bastards off as trueborn heirs?

If she was a consort like Cersei, then this would be a big problem. But she is not. The line of power flows through her. She can name them legitimate at any time she wants...however scandalous that might be.


This is such a headache. Rhaenyra and Laenor were complete idiots. In the books, I blame Laenor more than I blame Rhaenyra but, in the TV show, it's Rhaenyra I fault. The Iron Throne is still hers and no one should take that away from her but good God did she make a mess of her own inheritance.

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1 minute ago, BlackLightning said:

This is such a headache. Rhaenyra and Laenor were complete idiots. In the books, I blame Laenor more than I blame Rhaenyra but, in the TV show, it's Rhaenyra I fault. The Iron Throne is still hers and no one should take that away from her but good God did she make a mess of her own inheritance.

In the books I assumed there was a lot of distance between Rhaenyra and Laenor after her guard and possible lover killed Jeoffry. Doesn't he live at Driftmark? On the show though yeah it makes no sense that they wouldn't honor their deal of producing an heir. 

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Let's get this straight. The crime is not that Rhaenyra had bastards. The crime is that she is passing her bastards off as trueborn heirs?

To quote Gravity Falls Grunkle Stan, "Ain't no crime if there ain't no cops."

Alicent has SUSPICIONS but the King, the father, and the mother are all behind the lie of the true birth of the children.

She's basically Stannis.

And as such has no legal ground to make claims of bastardry.

It's like someone being cleared of all charges in our world. As far as the law is concerned, the matter is settled law.

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6 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

This is such a headache. Rhaenyra and Laenor were complete idiots. In the books, I blame Laenor more than I blame Rhaenyra but, in the TV show, it's Rhaenyra I fault. The Iron Throne is still hers and no one should take that away from her but good God did she make a mess of her own inheritance.

The thing is that Rhaenyra's bastardry is not actually relevant. It ANNOYS Alicent but it would make no difference if Rhaenyra's children were Laenors in terms of her attempting to undermine Rhaenyra's claim for Aegon II.

Mind you, I suspect the reason no one cares about their bastardry is the fact that most lords will never see Harwin Strong next to them or Laenor.

Edited by C.T. Phipps
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