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[Spoilers] Episode 106 Discussion


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Just now, RumHam said:

In the books I assumed there was a lot of distance between Rhaenyra and Laenor after her guard and possible lover killed Jeoffry.

In the books, Laenor is a jerk. Joffrey was killed on accident at a tourney. Things like that happen. Like I can imagine his desire to not want to share a room or a bed with Rhaenyra....but they didn't even live on the same island, much less in the same castle. I imagine that castles like Dragonstone are so big and well-supplied that you can effectively avoid a person's company indefinitely. He didn't even do anything important for the administration of the towns or castles on Driftmark. It seems to me that he just lounged around on Driftmark and only showed up every now and again...and only because his parents forced him to. With Laenor being a pain in the ass on Driftmark and Alicent undermining her at court in the Red Keep, the book version of Rhaenyra clearly was desperate.

In the TV show, the situation between them very different. The distance would be justified because Joffrey was beaten to death at their wedding feast and the man who did it got away with murder. Literally. Yet, they live together and they get along pretty well. Both in private and in public. Not only that TV-Laenor has had some sexual experience with women...enough for Corlys to talk about it being only a phase and enough for Laenor to dolefully express that he's tried. TV-Laenor is also not sexually impotent like Book-Laenor is implied to be. By that I mean, TV-Laenor actually strikes me as more energetic and virile (aka a "top") versus Book-Laenor who was giving more feminine, bottom vibes. So what the hell is the problem? Just pull a Margaery and make it a threesome. Or have Laenor masturbate on his own time and use the ejaculate for yourself. I don't know. Forgive how graphic I'm getting but the whole Rhaenyra-Laenor situation in the TV show looks absolutely insane and I (mostly) blame Rhaenyra.

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I'm going to acknowledge that this is partly a dumb question / point just because of religion and men controlling bed chambers and other power dynamics ... But there's an aspect of this that I think should mitigate some of the standard concerns and I'm curious what others think:

In a patriarchy, the Kings blood is what must continue the line. It's the male who matters and so you want his natural born children. For this reason, a woman giving birth to a child that doesn't resemble the father (King) comes with some significant problems. Even worse if she is drugged to be begging with other men.

In a matriarchy (something that westeros is allegedly moving towards for at least one generation at the time of the show) it is the Queen's blood that matters. You want a Targaryen on the throne and so Rhaenyra's children, regardless of the father, fulfill that need. Shouldn't this mitigate at least some of the concerns? I feel like it merits at least mentioning ("hey they're Targaryen, they're my babies, I birthed them") ... though, again it's only so relevant for the reasons mentioned at the outset.

Dunno, just a thought I had, harkening back to some of the sociology classes I once took in college.

Edited by Ser Not Appearing
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1 minute ago, BlackLightning said:

In the books, Laenor is a jerk. Joffrey was killed on accident at a tourney. Things like that happen.

Ah, see that wasn't my read of it. I had the impression that Cole took out his frustration with Rhaenyra on competitors who were connected to her. Brokenbones and Joffrey. I don't think his goal was "kill Joffrey" but I get the impression he wailed on the guy a lot more than he had to. 

I totally agree with the second half of your post. It's weird they didn't make it work. Again I think an episode set between the last two could have helped a lot. 

 

 

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14 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

She's basically Stannis.

But unlike Stannis, Alicent has no proof.

And also unlike Stannis, Alicent has talked to the King about it multiple times.

14 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

The thing is that Rhaenyra's bastardry is not actually relevant. It ANNOYS Alicent but it would make no difference if Rhaenyra's children were Laenors in terms of her attempting to undermine Rhaenyra's claim for Aegon II.

True. It's the only real weapon Alicent can use against Rhaenyra. If they were all girls, Alicent would make a comment about the integrity of House Targaryen and the Iron Throne being weakened by back-to-back successions of girls. Or if they had some features that obviously could be traced back to Laenor, Alicent would probably use -- I don't know -- some racist logic.

The racism or sexism in this case isn't the issue. It'd only be the weapon.

That said, Rhaenyra was a complete moron for giving Alicent this kind of ammunition. It might've been better if Rhaenyra had  just ended up laying with Corlys, Daemon or some other blonde. LOL actually no it wouldn't.

19 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Mind you, I suspect the reason no one cares about their bastardry is the fact that most lords will never see Harwin Strong next to them or Laenor.

True.

But I think most lords also understand what a toss-up genetics is. The fact that they know that genetics are so unpredictable is part of the reason why they arrange the marriages of their children so meticulously. Good genes are hard to come by and harder to keep ahold of so let's stack the odds in our favor.

 

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26 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

True.

But I think most lords also understand what a toss-up genetics is. The fact that they know that genetics are so unpredictable is part of the reason why they arrange the marriages of their children so meticulously. Good genes are hard to come by and harder to keep ahold of so let's stack the odds in our favor.

Especially in Westeros where recessive and dominant genes seem slightly different.

See Alicent Hightower's white haired elf children.

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35 minutes ago, Ser Not Appearing said:

I'm going to acknowledge that this is partly a dumb question / point just because of religion and men controlling bed chambers and other power dynamics ... But there's an aspect of this that I think should mitigate some of the standard concerns and I'm curious what others think:

Mind you, we're handling this with a modern perspective. Accusations of bastardry are very common in RL but it's not until now that they've had any substance to them whatsoever. There was a fascinating story about testing blood types in schools that was introduced in England that ended up a complete disaster in multiple schools across the country. Why? Because MANY children found out that they were not biologically their parents' child (or at least one of their parent's children).

Here, there's just, "It doesn't look like your son!"

Alicent would need the father, the king, Harwin, or mother to make a confession or some sort of evidence. She doesn't have ANY of these so it would never get any traction. There's not even a Mendelian understanding of genetics.

"Her kids all have brown hair."

"Yes, that happens when you leave them out in the sun too long."

"...what?"

"How do you think children get brown hair?"

Edited by C.T. Phipps
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I don't know where people on Twitter find these stuff (it's from a deleted scene), but apparently my impression that Daemon was a bit flirty with the waiter wasn't entirely wrong. I was even going to ask here if anyone else  thought it was "weird" how Daemon grabbed his arm and whispered in his ear, but I kind of forgot about it.

I wish the show had kept this, just so I could have one more scene with Laena. I liked the actress, even though she looks much older than she should be.

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21 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

At this point, I think with the Dance of the Dragons having no real personal drama, they now HAVE to do flashbacks next season and onward.

When I first heard they were doing this show, I thought it would start with adult Rhaenyra, and throughout the season there’d be flashbacks establishing why Criston hated her, what happened with Daemon, how she became heir, etc. I still think that may have been a more compelling approach.

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3 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

But unlike Stannis, Alicent has no proof.

And also unlike Stannis, Alicent has talked to the King about it multiple times.

True. It's the only real weapon Alicent can use against Rhaenyra. If they were all girls, Alicent would make a comment about the integrity of House Targaryen and the Iron Throne being weakened by back-to-back successions of girls. Or if they had some features that obviously could be traced back to Laenor, Alicent would probably use -- I don't know -- some racist logic.

The racism or sexism in this case isn't the issue. It'd only be the weapon.

That said, Rhaenyra was a complete moron for giving Alicent this kind of ammunition. It might've been better if Rhaenyra had  just ended up laying with Corlys, Daemon or some other blonde. LOL actually no it wouldn't.

True.

But I think most lords also understand what a toss-up genetics is. The fact that they know that genetics are so unpredictable is part of the reason why they arrange the marriages of their children so meticulously. Good genes are hard to come by and harder to keep ahold of so let's stack the odds in our favor.

 

I can't understand why Rhaenyra didn't take Laenor (in the show) to visit his uncle and have a discrete fling with the uncle; and get herself a white-haired baby of Valyrian blood that would resemble her husband; and keep it all in the family.  I'd even have suggested a go-round with the Sea Snake himself; but that might annoy Rhaenys and doing it with one's uncle-in-law might be easier than with one's father-in-law who one has known since childhood (even if TV-Corlys is hot).

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@VisenyaTargaryen

Without the context of these stills from cut scenes -- very curious how these keep leaking out there... -- I assumed he was just asking for more (and probably better/stronger) wine.

I expect they cut the less ambiguous material because they thought better of having Daemon cheating on Laena. It's bad enough that she knows she's the also-ran in his heart, but to have him flaunt it in her face would make him even more unlikeable.

But it's funny, another point of comparison to Oberyn, who I first compared him to many years ago when first reading George's material on him for The World of Ice and Fire.

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38 minutes ago, Raksha 2014 said:

I can't understand why Rhaenyra didn't take Laenor (in the show) to visit his uncle and have a discrete fling with the uncle; and get herself a white-haired baby of Valyrian blood that would resemble her husband; and keep it all in the family.  I'd even have suggested a go-round with the Sea Snake himself; but that might annoy Rhaenys and doing it with one's uncle-in-law might be easier than with one's father-in-law who one has known since childhood (even if TV-Corlys is hot).

I mean as we see there's already issues with Rhaenyra and her attempts to deal with this issue. We also see how some people, cough Criston Cole, did to her attempts to find a suitable lover.

Mind you, if I was Rhaenyra, I'd be cursing the Seven. "Oh, ALICENT'S children have white-blond hair but mine don't?"

Edited by C.T. Phipps
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6 hours ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

Look how well that turned out.

My point exactly.

You can deal with traitors but just killing relatives for the fear of it is being Maegor mad.

Daeron gave it a chance cause well, we're talking about his brother.

Btw and again, Jaeharys called the Great Council because war was obvious, as in both sides were preparing themselves for war. Had it not been that obvious, Jaeharys would have crowned Viserys and told Rhaenys to fuck off. As Viserys planned on doing.

Viserys didn't call a Great Council or made the Lords renew her vows to her because Rhaenyra had been the unquestioned heir for decades and the Realm had grown used to it. 

It was a matter of his sons not stirring the pot. And that is where he failed.

 

 

6 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I think there is a bigger problem here. After Viserys declared Rhaenyra heir, there was no need for him to remarry. All focus should have been on her securing her own offsprings. Instad, he married again, for no apparent reason.

There was a good need to remarry. Rhaenyra was 6-10 then? She could have died. Rhaenyra needed spares, it's common sense. As things stood, her spare was Daemon.

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6 hours ago, Colonel Green said:

Lots of people in Westeros care about bastardy. It’s kind of a big theme in the ASOIAF books.

Except when it comes to the Strongs bastardy it is. Where in fact, most do not actually care.

 

 

6 hours ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

By your logic, Jon Arryn, Stannis, and Ned had no cause for investigating the paternity of Cersei's children.

Cersei's children aren't royal blood whereas Rhaenyra's are.

 

 

 

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30 minutes ago, frenin said:

Except when it comes to the Strongs bastardy it is. Where in fact, most do not actually care.

Because the husband claims them as his own. Even if they all know it for a lie, it's hard to get around the fact that the husband says nope, they're his, when there's no chance he's not aware of the truth.

They don't have paternity tests, they don't even know about genetics, they just have observation and precedents. 

At least with Robert, there was reason to think he just believed they were his and had been misled. 

Edited by Ran
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24 minutes ago, Ran said:

Because the husband claims them as his own. Even if they all know it for a lie, it's hard to get around the fact that the husband says nope, they're his, when there's no chance he's not aware of the truth.

They don't have paternity tests, they don't even know about genetics, they just have observation and precedents. 

At least with Robert, there was reason to think he just believed they were his and had been misled. 

Which gets back to the point Alicent is only doing this shit stirring to advance the cause of her children.

Edited by C.T. Phipps
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27 minutes ago, Ran said:

Because the husband claims them as his own. Even if they all know it for a lie, it's hard to get around the fact that the husband says nope, they're his, when there's no chance he's not aware of the truth.

They don't have paternity tests, they don't even know about genetics, they just have observation and precedents. 

Yeah.  This argument has been everlasting for nearly the entirety I've been on this forum, but I really don't get how this doesn't get through to people and we have to endlessly go over the history of this or that and how it was a male-dominated society.  The people - the men - directly involved were cool with it, as far as we know.  Viserys, Laenor and Corlys.  

Ned's plan was to inform Robert of the bastardy.  Obviously he changed his mind when the the latter was on his deathbed, but let's say he wasn't.  Let's say Robert was fine with it.  Do y'all think Ned would try to raise a rebellion in Stannis' name against Robert's wishes?  Do you think Arryn would have?  I find that very hard to believe.  Ned's beef seemed to be with Jaime more than anything.  He was afraid for the children because of Robert's wrath, and he plainly didn't wish them harm.  He explicitly refused Renly's overture.

Both aGoT and F&B may have dealt with bastardy, but acting like that means they're in any way similar in how it played out is glossing over a whole hell of a lot.  

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