[Spoilers] Episode 106 Discussion

[BlackLightning]

This episode was good. Not great. And frankly, I feel like I am being generous by saying that it was good. Maybe I should watch it again.

In any case, the chief problem with this show is the pacing of the plot. There's nothing wrong with the pacing and structure of the episodes. It's the plot...it's moving TOO DAMN FAST

Like I'm starting to get mad that I have to say this every week. Condol and Sapochnik are arguably better than D&D ever were but I am not very happy.

I should've known that this was going to happen the moment they revealed that the story would start in the middle of Viserys' reign.

They should've started the show with the Second Quarrel: an aging Jaehaerys and Alysanne feuding with their children and grandchildren caught in the middle. I said that from the beginning. The very least that they should've done is dedicate the entire first episode to Baelon's death and the Great Council of 101 at Harrenhal. We would've seen:

• Jaehaerys express fear, grief and regrets--all of which would not only foreshadow everything that was going to happen but that would also establish the theme of the series. Plus, I'm a sucker for King Lear and seeing Old King Jaehaerys opine and gripe about what happened and what could've happened would be a nice homage.
• Baelon's death (which would not only provide origins for the beef between Daemon and Otto, but it would also explain Viserys' apparently long-kept suspicions of Otto's social climbing nature) and maybe a sweet multigenerational scene between him, his father, his son and his little granddaughter Rhaenyra
• Vaemond and the other archmaesters "counselling" the king to let the realm decide (too good of a storytelling opportunity to pass up)
• The Velaryon and Targaryen factions (namely Corlys, Rhaenys and Daemon) jockeying, campaigning and scheming for power with all the other lords of the realm debating.

With all of the setup out of the way, the second episode could've been all about the happy, rich golden years of Viserys and Aemma (with a bustling tournament....and my headcanon is that Aemma taught Rhaenyra how to ride a dragon and that Aemma rode Dreamfyre) before Aemma and the baby Baelon die.

But whatever

The storyline that suffered the most this week from the rushing of the plot was, surprisingly, Laena and Daemon. The Criston Cole/Joffrey Lonmouth mess should've been addressed and resolved onscreen, yes but we should've had a distinct resolution to the bit with Rhea Royce. They made a big point of that in the last episode and there should've been a follow-up. A trip to the Eyrie was in need. We also needed a relatively longer courtship between Daemon and Laena. The family dynamic there between Daemon, Laena, Baela and Rhaena needed some establishing before they eliminate 25% of it.

Speaking of which, I don't like the way that they did Laena's death. Not only was it extremely implausible in several different ways but the impact and the implication? Negligible. The book version of how she died (going for one last ride atop Vhagar) and its aftermath with her family standing vigil was much better. I don't even have a problem with the suicide-by-dragon (if they explain the bond between human and dragon, it can explain how unhinged Vhagar acts from here on out). I think it should've been a stillbirth. Stillbirth would've let the story breathe more. Laena can then choose being dying slowly in bed or dying a quick dragonrider's death. Then we can see her daughters and her husband react to her suicide and either bond or grow apart because of it.

Plus, I would've really wanted to see Rhaenyra and Laena be friends and for their families to be one big happy family for a little bit.

They also sped their way through enlightening us on how Daemon has gotten so settled. Dare I say, mildly depressed? Also, the politics of Dorne and the Free Cities. It would've been nice to have Daemon and his family tour the Free Cities a bit and perhaps brush shoulders with the Martells and the Triarchy power-bloc. They both become pretty big menaces later on.

1 hour ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

So, people that bought into this idea of "Blacks=HEROES Greens=EVIL" are confused

I'm going to stop you right there.

The Blacks are the heroes of the story.

Okay, so yeah...Daemon is no one's Captain America and Rhaenyra is not the Virgin Mary. So what? At the end of the day, not only was the letter of the law on their side but so was the spirit of the law.

I don't care which way you spin it; the Greens were wrong as wrong gets.

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

But rejoice, my friends: they cut the foot fetish scene!

Speaking for the perv part of the producers audience, I very much wanted that scene. Now Larys just looks like a guy who murders his family for a woman who offers him nothing ... when his father and the king could have given him pretty much all of that, too, them being the guys who are actually in charge.

1 hour ago, RumHam said:

The casting for this show has been really incredible. 

I just don't understand what they were going for there. Exhibitionism? A sexual attraction to architecture? And that his mom didn't even address it. 

Well, he is young, so you do it all the time at that age. And as a prince this kind of silly thing feels like something one might do. He is somewhat embarrassed, but Westerosi might be more enlightened than telling their children horror stories to keep them from masturbating, so who cares?

1 hour ago, RumHam said:

Hey they didn't even mention Daeron or how many kids Alicent had did they? Weird. 

So far not. One hopes the reports about Daeron are accurate and they didn't cut him. One assumes that Otto brings one of him once he is back.

1 hour ago, RumHam said:

Yup, agree completely. As soon as Lyonel told the king he was going I was like "uh oh." I said this in the last thread but I think the timing is very telling. Larys could have killed his father and brother to inherit at any point. Viserys had a reason to kill Harwin at that moment. Two reasons really, keeping him quiet and because he "dishonored" his daughter.

Viserys would never command such a thing, especially not if it would also kill Lyonel (and he knew it would in the show, and he also must have in the book).

Does Rhaenyra already know Harwin and Lyonel are dead when she leaves court? That would make little sense since she should then push to install herself or Laenor or someone she trusts as the new Hand. She could not possibly allow that Otto is recalled.

I thought she would say *they* (meaning she and Laenor) would go to the Stepstones to crush the Triarchy with their dragons, showing that they were the true blood of the Conqueror. Her hawkish view on the council seemed to suggest something along those lines. The news about Laena's death, her funeral, and the impending death of Laenor could have cut any such plans short (or at least Rhaenyra's personal involvement in the subsequent struggles).

Could have been better to go with her retreating to Dragonstone after the Aemond incident and her marriage to Daemon which is likely to infuriate Alicent even further ... and Viserys, too, perhaps.

The way this is now it comes across as a stupid decision.

1 hour ago, RumHam said:

I'm curious if/how they'll rectify show Larys's seeming devotion to Alicent with him playing both sides later on. 

She was pretty horrified by what he did, so there might be other issues later on she doesn't agree with him.

6 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Weirdly, I loved it.

It establishes very clearly Aegon is utterly unworthy of the throne and only a lunatic would want him on the throne or a power mad viper.

Ah, well, so far he is just an ass. And we don't know the masturbation habits of any of the other characters. Not to mention what they do with their feet.

[C.T. Phipps]

I'm stunned at the idea people want to start EVEN FURTHER in the past to avoid more time skips.

 

[BlackLightning]

Every other bit of the episode was nice. Alicent is bitter, angry and anxious. But there is an honor to her...she's like an evil Catelyn. As if the rules in the North were different than everywhere else or if the circumstances of Jon's birth and Ned's lie were different...and Jon was made the heir of Winterfell instead of Robb.

They did an outstanding job introducing us to Aegon, Helaena and Aemond. Aemond is an over-sensitive "nice guy" who inherits all of his mother's jealousy and grandfather's spite...it's easy to see how he becomes this monstrous incel. If Aegon, a silly pervert of a teenaged boy, thinks you're a twat...

I love how they are using that conversation between Aegon and Alicent to portray how Alicent has become an anxiety-ridden Puritan and how Aegon himself will soon become this irrepressibly out-of-control loser. Regardless of whether Alicent is right to believe that Rhaenyra will kill them all to secure herself, the way she is communicating that to Aegon is both dangerously inappropriate and ineffective. It's also openly treasonous. So much for honor and decency, eh?

I'm going to fall in love with Helaena, the black sheep of the Hightower-Targaryen family. She's almost certainly neurodivergent (which makes Alicent look like a stupid hypocrite in a couple different ways) but I loved how they:

1. hid her dragon-dreamer powers under the mask of making her look autistic (nice GoT reference to that one Lannister cousin who was not only obsessed with bugs but was also on the spectrum)
2. then proceeded to have her spoil the last big plot points of the few episodes of the season

The character was also purposefully distant from Alicent; not the other way around. Helaena probably already knows that her mother is up to no good and her mother's behavior and character makes her visibly uncomfortable. Again, they masterfully hid Helaena's discomfort and near-refusal to acknowledge the presence of her mother under the veneer of autism.

Brilliant.

 

Emma d'Arcy is fantastic. Move over Milly. lol

The Rhaenyra-centric parts of the episode also suffered a little from the time skip

[RumHam]

8 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, he is young, so you do it all the time at that age. And as a prince this kind of silly thing feels like something one might do. He is somewhat embarrassed, but Westerosi might be more enlightened than telling their children horror stories to keep them from masturbating, so who cares?

 

Viserys would never command such a thing, especially not if it would also kill Lyonel (and he knew it would in the show, and he also must have in the book).

Does Rhaenyra already know Harwin and Lyonel are dead when she leaves court? That would make little sense since she should then push to install herself or Laenor or someone she trusts as the new Hand. She could not possibly allow that Otto is recalled.

I thought she would say *they* (meaning she and Laenor) would go to the Stepstones to crush the Triarchy with their dragons, showing that they were the true blood of the Conqueror. Her hawkish view on the council seemed to suggest something along those lines. The news about Laena's death, her funeral, and the impending death of Laenor could have cut any such plans short (or at least Rhaenyra's personal involvement in the subsequent struggles).

Could have been better to go with her retreating to Dragonstone after the Aemond incident and her marriage to Daemon which is likely to infuriate Alicent even further ... and Viserys, too, perhaps.

The way this is now it comes across as a stupid decision.

She was pretty horrified by what he did, so there might be other issues later on she doesn't agree with him.

Ah, well, so far he is just an ass. And we don't know the masturbation habits of any of the other characters. Not to mention what they do with their feet.

The weird part isn't that he's masturbating, it's the window thing. I'm just trying to understand what the writers were going for. 

Quote

Viserys would never command such a thing

I don't know, man. I would never say never. Even ignoring that it's fiction and ultimately the characters do what the author decides, even a great man has bad days, or does things he might regret. Maybe he finally took his blinders off and was quietly enraged at Harwin's offense against him. Mind you he doesn't have to plot this out, he just has to say yes / not argue with Alicent or whoever suggests it.

I forgot to mention this before but like if you want to inherit a place you probably don't set it on fire? or roast your dad in the room you want to move into? Obviously show Larys is a sociopath but we know so little about the book characters. 

[BlackLightning]

15 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, he is young, so you do it all the time at that age.

This is very true.

I don't know whether I should cringe, shrug it off or sigh out of a nostalgic longing. I'm pretty sure that I don't miss those days, but those days certainly happened.

If a man says that days like those didn't happen, either he's a monk, a liar or both.

Even so, what Aegon was doing was being a creep. Granted, a lot of teenage boys are perverted and some are very creepy...but boys like Aegon are in a class of their own. They get worse as they get older.

This was a spectacular choice of an introduction scene. It shows Aegon's sexual deviancy, his recklessness and how the boy is dangerously carefree and thoughtless. The fact that he was standing on the windowsill at that height with only one free hand to hold him. It was also a spectacular decision for our stern Catholic nun of a queen to see what he's doing and completely ignore it only to fill his head with uncertainty and fear.

14 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I'm stunned at the idea people want to start EVEN FURTHER in the past to avoid more time skips.

Okay I'll bite.

I'm not saying that I want to avoid more time skips. I want more breathing room and, dare I say it, more filler to put between time skips.

For example, we needed an episode after "We Light the Way" to show the fallout of the Criston/Joffrey incident and the Royce inheritance. Both of those were explicit plotlines that forebode further development and resolution...that didn't get resolved. Plus, you can put Laena's claiming of Vhagar in the same episode for extra padding. Voila! It writes itself.

 

But yes. A prelude of a pilot that revolves around the Second Quarrel and/or the Great Council was the better option.

29 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The way this is now it comes across as a stupid decision.

It is regrettable in character seeing that Rhaenyra comes to make several very stupid decisions.

And yes, I am still mad about

Spoiler

her inability to end the riots of King's Landing with dragonfire

 

 

[Cashless Society]

4 hours ago, RumHam said:

I like the grizzled burnt dragonkeeper guy but really dude you only speak Valyrian? I feel like that's like meeting someone today who only speaks Latin. 

I don't understand Alicent saying she was shocked the strong boy's eggs hatched. Like you realize you're not a Valyrian either? It seems to me all the kids have basically the same amount of Targaryen blood. With the time jump and casting change she already seems far less sympathetic. 

I really don't know what to make of Aegon pounding off at what I think might be the window Tommen jumped from. The actor is nailing it though. 

I just don't understand what they were going for there. Exhibitionism? A sexual attraction to architecture? And that his mom didn't even address it

Perhaps he's originally from one of the free cities like Volantis where Valyrian is a default language?

But her children aren't barstards like those strong Velaryon boys.

It's pretty similar to the scene of Roman Roy in season 1 of Succession. A metaphorical "Fuck The World, I'm royalty and I can do anything I want with absolutely zero repercussions"

3 hours ago, Mark Antony said:

Actually felt bad for Aemond. Was weird seeing Aegon pulling a prank with Lucerys and Jace. The kids could have all been friends

I'm just loving how their showing that kids are, for the most part, willing to be friendly with each other and it's mainly adult influences that develop and mold their opinions and biases. 

2 hours ago, RumHam said:

Do people really think of it like that though? For me it's "the blacks' cause is just, greens are usurping against the previous king's expressed wishes." and then individual characters get judged on being good or evil, and hopefully are some mix of both. 

Another factor is how many narrative elements that Martin utilises in the telling the story heavily paints the  Blacks as the underdogs. And most readers associate underdogs as protagonists and the protagonists as the heroes. 

[BlackLightning]

12 minutes ago, RumHam said:

The weird part isn't that he's masturbating, it's the window thing. I'm just trying to understand what the writers were going for. 

The writers were establishing the fact that Aegon is perverted and stupid...but not entirely shameless.

It's also a nod to GoT. Well, maybe not a nod but a diss.

16 minutes ago, RumHam said:

I forgot to mention this before but like if you want to inherit a place you probably don't set it on fire? or roast your dad in the room you want to move into?

Harrenhal is already an irreparable, glorified ruin.

What's a regular fire going to do to it that dragonfire hasn't done already?

 

But I'm with @Lord Varys. You might have the argument about whether Viserys ordered it in the books, but you can't say that for the show. He knew Lyonel was going to be there and he loves Lyonel. I don't think Viserys is even capable of doing that to a person that he hates, much less to someone who he cares deeply about.

 

[C.T. Phipps]

Call me crazy but I feel like as good as the past five episodes were, they should have just started here.

[RumHam]

17 minutes ago, Cashless Society said:

Perhaps he's originally from one of the free cities like Volantis where Valyrian is a default language?

Still the guy is a gizzled no nonsense dragon expert right?  All the dragons are in westeros. Like did he get those burns in an unrelated battled as a mercenary in Volantis?

Maybe, but the clear shorthand implication is that he's been burned by dragon fire and also become an authority on dragons. To me this suggests he's been in kings landing for a while, and probably understands the language. 

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

3 hours ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

Will the people whining about "oh, Alicent is whitewashed" stop now? Probably not. Or maybe they'll move to "Aegon and Aemond are whitewashed" instead.

What is this?

53 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Weirdly, I loved it.

It establishes very clearly Aegon is utterly unworthy of the throne and only a lunatic would want him on the throne or a power mad viper.

Yeah, mom walking in while you're rubbing one out is never fun. So I've heard. 

I wouldn't say it marks him as a bad future king though. That's a bit of leap. If he's still doing that at 30, that won't be so good. 

30 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Every other bit of the episode was nice. Alicent is bitter, angry and anxious. But there is an honor to her...she's like an evil Catelyn. As if the rules in the North were different than everywhere else or if the circumstances of Jon's birth and Ned's lie were different...and Jon was made the heir of Winterfell instead of Robb.

I don't think she's evil. She's internalized the last conversation she had with her father from the previous episode. Her life and the lives of her sons are on the line. However she got there, that's the situation. 

27 minutes ago, RumHam said:

The weird part isn't that he's masturbating, it's the window thing. I'm just trying to understand what the writers were going for. 

Because he's a rich royal creep who probably just learned to play with his pud. Besides, it's not like he's just hanging it out the front door. I'm sure his room is pretty high up in some tower or something. 

[Ran]

Just now, RumHam said:

Still the guy is a gizzled no nonsense dragon expert right?  All the dragons are in westeros. Like did he get those burns in an unrelated battled as a mercenary in Volantis?

Maybe, but the clear shorthand implication is that he's been burned by dragon fire and also become an authority on dragons. To me this suggests he's been in kings landing for a while, and probably understands the language. 

I feel like they've turned the Dragonkeepers into something of a religious cult who worship the dragons, and that at a certain stage senior members of the Dragonkeepers basically use Valyrian only as a sign of their devotion to dragons or something like that. He probably does speak Westerosi but refuses to do so for devotion-related reasons. 

[RumHam]

19 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Harrenhal is already an irreparable, glorified ruin.

Honestly @Lord Varys can probably explain this better than me but that's just not true. Yes, it's mishapen from dragonfire but it's sill totally habitable and has rich lands. remember how angry Tywin was that it was given to a butcher's son?

[RumHam]

Just now, Ran said:

I feel like they've turned the Dragonkeepers into something of a religious cult who worship the dragons, and that at a certain stage senior members of the Dragonkeepers basically use Valyrian only as a sign of their devotion to dragons or something like that. He probably does speak Westerosi but refuses to do so for devotion-related reasons. 

Huh. what you take for reverence I took for the very specific fear of knowing you cannot control a dragon. That's the whole thing right?  They can guard them but they have to live with the same kinda fear you'd have I I asked you to protect a terrifying monster.

 

 

[Ran]

Just now, RumHam said:

Huh. what you take for reverence I took for the very specific fear of knowing you cannot control a dragon. That's the whole thing right?  They can guard them but they have to live with the same kinda fear you'd have I I asked you to protect a terrifying monster.

I mean, the vengeful God of the Old Testament had his followers... I don't think reverence and fear are that far apart, if fear of something means also appreciation of and respect for something.

I definitely believe he tasted a bit of dragon fire or maybe got clawed or bitten by a (young) dragon, anyways.

[BlackLightning]

22 minutes ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

I don't think she's evil. She's internalized the last conversation she had with her father from the previous episode. Her life and the lives of her sons are on the line. However she got there, that's the situation. 

Any adult (especially adults in positions of real power and influence) who goes out of their way to dishonor, endanger and hurt children is evil.

Seriously...who feuds with an eight-year-old? What kind of person makes a thirteen-year-old their archenemy?

Ned Stark - the paragon of virtue in this world - says as much. It's the key difference between Ned, Cat, Dany, Jon and that of literally everyone else...

All four of the main Lannisters are guilty of hurting and terrorizing children as are Robert and Stannis. Lysa is no better...in fact, she has more in common with Cersei and Tywin than she does with anyone else. The point of no return for Theon was not in betraying Robb for his father but in murdering those peasant boys so he could pretend that he killed Bran and Rickon. Some say the Others eat children while others say that the Others take children and turn them into slaves. Varys is running a sweatshop of a counterintelligence agency with child slaves who have had their tongues removed. The Sand Snakes are bad news but even they balk at the wanton killing of innocent children...although their definition of innocent is very loose. Arianne is so deeply ashamed of herself for even thinking about endangering Myrcella and Gerold Dayne is pretty much a dead man walking for the stunt he pulled. Littlefinger is an absolute menace, the slavers of Essos are reprehensible and still Euron Greyjoy somehow manages to be the worst of them all. 

 

I definitely don't disagree with you. She's definitely internalized the last conversation she had with her father. But it doesn't make her right. There's no indication whatsoever that Rhaenyra would do such a thing and they used Alicent's conversation with Aegon (and to a lesser extent, her conversations with Aemond and Helaena) as a perfect example of such. It's one thing to lie about having sex outside of marriage because you are afraid of the consequences of telling the truth and it's another thing to order the wholesale slaughter of children in order to secure your own rise to power.

Speaking of which, Rhaenyra is such an incredible foil for Ned Stark. Like Rhaenyra is like the darker encapsulation of Ned Stark and Cersei Lannister while Alicent is like a dark version of Catelyn.

32 minutes ago, Ran said:

I mean, the vengeful God of the Old Testament had his followers... I don't think reverence and fear are that far apart, if fear of something means also appreciation of and respect for something.

This is completely off-topic...but is the God of the Old Testament truly vengeful? Or just an all-powerful, all-knowing mostly invisible warrior-king with zero tolerance for nonsense?

Oh my...I think we found the inspiration for King Bran.

[BlackLightning]

49 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Honestly @Lord Varys can probably explain this better than me but that's just not true. Yes, it's mishapen from dragonfire but it's sill totally habitable and has rich lands. remember how angry Tywin was that it was given to a butcher's son?

Good point.

But Larys seems to be afraid of the supposed curse of Harrenhal and has no intentions of residing and ruling there. 

[SeanF]

4 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Any adult (especially adults in positions of real power and influence) who goes out of their way to dishonor, endanger and hurt children is evil.

Seriously...who feuds with an eight-year-old? What kind of person makes a thirteen-year-old their archenemy?

Ned Stark - the paragon of virtue in this world - says as much. It's the key difference between Ned, Cat, Dany, Jon and that of literally everyone else...

All four of the main Lannisters are guilty of hurting and terrorizing children as are Robert and Stannis. Lysa is no better...in fact, she has more in common with Cersei and Tywin than she does with anyone else. The point of no return for Theon was not in betraying Robb for his father but in murdering those peasant boys so he could pretend that he killed Bran and Rickon. Some say the Others eat children while others say that the Others take children and turn them into slaves. Varys is running a sweatshop of a counterintelligence agency with child slaves who have had their tongues removed. The Sand Snakes are bad news but even they balk at the wanton killing of innocent children...although their definition of innocent is very loose. Arianne is so deeply ashamed of herself for even thinking about endangering Myrcella and Gerold Dayne is pretty much a dead man walking for the stunt he pulled. Littlefinger is an absolute menace, the slavers of Essos are reprehensible and still Euron Greyjoy somehow manages to be the worst of them all. 

 

I definitely don't disagree with you. She's definitely internalized the last conversation she had with her father. But it doesn't make her right. There's no indication whatsoever that Rhaenyra would do such a thing and they used Alicent's conversation with Aegon (and to a lesser extent, her conversations with Aemond and Helaena) as a perfect example of such. It's one thing to lie about having sex outside of marriage because you are afraid of the consequences of telling the truth and it's another thing to order the wholesale slaughter of children in order to secure your own rise to power.

Speaking of which, Rhaenyra is such an incredible foil for Ned Stark. Like Rhaenyra is like the darker encapsulation of Ned Stark and Cersei Lannister while Alicent is like a dark version of Catelyn.

This is completely off-topic...but is the God of the Old Testament truly vengeful? Or just an all-powerful, all-knowing mostly invisible warrior-king with zero tolerance for nonsense?

Oh my...I think we found the inspiration for King Bran.

Jehovah is a practitioner of tough love.

”The Lord chastises those whom He loves.”

Edited September 26, 2022 by SeanF

[Ran]

3 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

This is completely off-topic...but is the God of the Old Testament truly vengeful?

You tell me.

[C.T. Phipps]

One note about OTG is the fact that he was differentiated from other Gods from the fact his vengeance was on the wicked.

Which was a major improvement over gods who did, LOL because.