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[Spoilers] Episode 106 Discussion


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10 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

I should've known that this was going to happen the moment they revealed that the story would start in the middle of Viserys' reign.

They should've started the show with the Second Quarrel: an aging Jaehaerys and Alysanne feuding with their children and grandchildren caught in the middle. I said that from the beginning. The very least that they should've done is dedicate the entire first episode to Baelon's death and the Great Council of 101 at Harrenhal. We would've seen:

  • Jaehaerys express fear, grief and regrets--all of which would not only foreshadow everything that was going to happen but that would also establish the theme of the series. Plus, I'm a sucker for King Lear and seeing Old King Jaehaerys opine and gripe about what happened and what could've happened would be a nice homage.
  • Baelon's death (which would not only provide origins for the beef between Daemon and Otto, but it would also explain Viserys' apparently long-kept suspicions of Otto's social climbing nature) and maybe a sweet multigenerational scene between him, his father, his son and his little granddaughter Rhaenyra
  • Vaemond and the other archmaesters "counselling" the king to let the realm decide (too good of a storytelling opportunity to pass up)
  • The Velaryon and Targaryen factions (namely Corlys, Rhaenys and Daemon) jockeying, campaigning and scheming for power with all the other lords of the realm debating.

With all of the setup out of the way, the second episode could've been all about the happy, rich golden years of Viserys and Aemma (with a bustling tournament....and my headcanon is that Aemma taught Rhaenyra how to ride a dragon and that Aemma rode Dreamfyre) before Aemma and the baby Baelon die.

But whatever.

Rhaenyra and Alicent are the main characters of the show. You don’t begin with multiple episodes that your main characters aren’t in (or we barely in).

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32 minutes ago, Gigei said:

Apparently, they cut the scene where Daemon comforts his kids. 

 

I don't get the editor of this show ! they've cut so many scenes that could  give some humanity to the characters. this Daemon scene , Cole's vow scene and Alicent/Rhaenyra first fight among them! 

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4 hours ago, slant said:

Now get what the mulvaleys flower signifies, it has nothing to do with Braavos at all, it is a reference to Alicent being out of place and far away from home.

The way Larys plucks it and sniffs it... not sure what that is supposed to indicate though. 

I don't see why the old men should be so affected by some milk leaking out, or why Rhaenyra should be so embarrassed by it. I also didn't find it compelling for her to flee because of a few rumours lol... it is her third kid, its like she got pushed too far and too suddenly. 

I am disappointed that instead of giving compelling reasons to root for the princess and the queen, both are shown as equally flawed, weak and unpredictable. 

I believe this was Dreamfyre. 

I think she left King’s Landing because now Harwin was gone. Unlike in the books, he was still in the gold cloaks, so he was tied to his post.

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13 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

Rhaenyra and Alicent are the main characters of the show. You don’t begin with multiple episodes that your main characters aren’t in (or we barely in).

Yeah, the problem isn't where the show started, but the number of episodes it has. Too much is happening off-screen.

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5 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Yeah, the problem isn't where the show started, but the number of episodes it has. Too much is happening off-screen.

The scope of the story is too big. If they wanted a coherent story they’d need to start on the death of King Viserys. 
 

But even then they’ve done a terrible job with the time skips leaving viewers with an unbelievable sense of whiplash.

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9 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

This is very true.

I don't know whether I should cringe, shrug it off or sigh out of a nostalgic longing. I'm pretty sure that I don't miss those days, but those days certainly happened.

If a man says that days like those didn't happen, either he's a monk, a liar or both.

Well, I still remember how hard it was after school sometimes. There were times you barely had any control over that stuff ;-).

9 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Even so, what Aegon was doing was being a creep. Granted, a lot of teenage boys are perverted and some are very creepy...but boys like Aegon are in a class of their own. They get worse as they get older.

I can relate to that to a point. I never masturbated outside a window and I'm not exhibitionistic, either, but I don't feel shame doing things in my own home/space. If I want to enjoy the view I have when having sex (with myself) then I do that. I think the best take on Aegon there - aside from the fact that he clearly is horny as hell all the time - is that he does this not because he gets off because others might see it, but it is his window, his room, and, in a way, also his castle.

9 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

This was a spectacular choice of an introduction scene. It shows Aegon's sexual deviancy, his recklessness and how the boy is dangerously carefree and thoughtless. The fact that he was standing on the windowsill at that height with only one free hand to hold him. It was also a spectacular decision for our stern Catholic nun of a queen to see what he's doing and completely ignore it only to fill his head with uncertainty and fear.

Alicent clearly has double standards for men and women - she has internalized that. And, worse still, she has double standards for her son. Her grooming Aegon to rule was apparently pushing him and favoring him without trying to instill a sense of responsibility in him.

9 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Okay I'll bite.

I'm not saying that I want to avoid more time skips. I want more breathing room and, dare I say it, more filler to put between time skips.

For example, we needed an episode after "We Light the Way" to show the fallout of the Criston/Joffrey incident and the Royce inheritance. Both of those were explicit plotlines that forebode further development and resolution...that didn't get resolved. Plus, you can put Laena's claiming of Vhagar in the same episode for extra padding. Voila! It writes itself.

Yes, the time jump there is pretty bad. Not that they skipped a lot of years, but it should have been after they established Daemon-Laena as a married couple and after Rhaenyra-Harwin were a thing.

Biggest issue is the Criston Cole nonsense.

This whole thing makes the entire setting break down to a point. We are now to believe that Criston - a nobody, really - can get away with murdering Ser Joffrey Lonmouth, a nobleman with close connections to the royal family, but Rhaenyra, Harwin, and their children are in (mortal) danger because they have a clandestine sexual relationship?

It is almost comical that Laenor would suffer it that this guy stands guard in the castle, and is (among other people) protecting the lives of his wife and sons.

The whole decadent thing bites itself in the ass there. If they have lax or nonexistent morals regarding deadly violence (which is odd considering this is a time of peace and plenty, meaning people should be more abhorred by violence than if we were living in an era of constant (civil) war) but sexually they are almost puritans?

In this setting Rhaenyra Targaryen should actually be able to entertain Harwin as her paramour openly, rubbing him and the true parentage of her children in everybody's face ... because nobody would care.

The idea that Harwin would be dismissed for his quarrel with Criston is also pretty odd - the king himself was there, he was interpreting things he himself saw, so he could have completely ignored this as so much else.

9 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

But yes. A prelude of a pilot that revolves around the Second Quarrel and/or the Great Council was the better option.

Yes, a better breakdown would have been the first season starting with Baelon's death stretching to Rhaenyra's wedding and its aftermath. It would have given events more time to breathe so that we could actually see the decline of Rhaenyra's and Alicent's friendship - which we now never see. We see Alicent feeling betrayed in episode 5 ... but the writers would have to explain and show why this breach couldn't be healed. They didn't. They just showed that they cannot stand each other now for ... reasons.

9 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

It is regrettable in character seeing that Rhaenyra comes to make several very stupid decisions.

And yes, I am still mad about

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her inability to end the riots of King's Landing with dragonfire

Sure enough, but this feels like a completely pointless decision there, especially if she already knew the Strongs were dead at that point.

10 hours ago, RumHam said:

 I don't know, man. I would never say never. Even ignoring that it's fiction and ultimately the characters do what the author decides, even a great man has bad days, or does things he might regret. Maybe he finally took his blinders off and was quietly enraged at Harwin's offense against him. Mind you he doesn't have to plot this out, he just has to say yes / not argue with Alicent or whoever suggests it.

Yeah, I phrased it too strongly there. Book Viserys we don't know enough, although his treatment of the Velaryons indicates he was determined to see this as he wanted it to see. If he had actually felt bad about Harwin's actions it should have also affected his view of Rhaenyra and his grandsons. But, apparently, it didn't.

10 hours ago, RumHam said:

I forgot to mention this before but like if you want to inherit a place you probably don't set it on fire? or roast your dad in the room you want to move into? Obviously show Larys is a sociopath but we know so little about the book characters. 

Harrenhal has gigantic towers and Larys would have either decided to live in another or known he had to funds to restore what the fire destroyed.

9 hours ago, Ran said:

I feel like they've turned the Dragonkeepers into something of a religious cult who worship the dragons, and that at a certain stage senior members of the Dragonkeepers basically use Valyrian only as a sign of their devotion to dragons or something like that. He probably does speak Westerosi but refuses to do so for devotion-related reasons. 

The oddity about the Dragonkeepers is that they apparently have as much or more control over the dragons as their riders or riders-to-be. They should have some familiarity with them, but not to the point that they can feel safer around them than the blood of the dragon.

Helaena hasn't claimed Dreamfyre at that point, one imagines, or else Aemond wouldn't have dared approaching her with the apparent desire to mount her.

A pity we never saw a Sunfyre hatchling ... and I'm guessing they might also not depict a Tyraxes or Stormcloud hatchling this season - not to mention show (or include) Morghul and Shrykos.

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10 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

I'm going to stop you right there.

The Blacks are the heroes of the story.

Okay, so yeah...Daemon is no one's Captain America and Rhaenyra is not the Virgin Mary. So what? At the end of the day, not only was the letter of the law on their side but so was the spirit of the law.

I don't care which way you spin it; the Greens were wrong as wrong gets.

I respectfully disagree that the Blacks are “the heroes” of the Dance. Both sides suck quite frankly and viewing the conflict as a Shakespearean tragedy over a conflict between a right an wrong side makes for a better read in my book as well as makes for a better story for tv because if you present the Blacks as our protagonist/the good side then you are going to give the audience serious whiplash when

Spoiler

Blood and Cheese happens or the peasant riot 

 

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5 minutes ago, Stannis is the man....nis said:

I respectfully disagree that the Blacks are “the heroes” of the Dance. Both sides suck quite frankly and viewing the conflict as a Shakespearean tragedy over a conflict between a right an wrong side makes for a better read in my book as well as makes for a better story for tv because if you present the Blacks as our protagonist/the good side then you are going to give the audience serious whiplash when

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Blood and Cheese happens or the peasant riot 

 

Both sides do terrible things, but It was Aemond who draw first blood and it was the Greens who let Viserys rot for days without saying anything to anyone.
 

The Black's cause is more just than the Green's one. That's it. Doesn't mean they're heroes, though.

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5 minutes ago, Stannis is the man....nis said:

I respectfully disagree that the Blacks are “the heroes” of the Dance. Both sides suck quite frankly and viewing the conflict as a Shakespearean tragedy over a conflict between a right an wrong side makes for a better read in my book as well as makes for a better story for tv because if you present the Blacks as our protagonist/the good side then you are going to give the audience serious whiplash when

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Blood and Cheese happens or the peasant riot 

 

You know Larys Strong was helping with those riots? I'm not a huge fan of the Blacks, but not everything that happened in KL at the time was their fault. Larys Strong was doing what Varys is doing in the main series right now, and sowing the seeds of chaos into the minds of the civilian population. Larys was also a Green, so yea both are responsible for that mess.

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3 hours ago, HOTDfresher said:

I feel Rhaenyra- Laenor did try having kids but she didn't get pregnant by him. I mean in epi 5 they had agreed to fulfill their duty to the realm & then be free to have affairs. If Rhaenyra didn't have kids within a year or 2 of her marriage, you bet she would have been declared barren or something. Laenor would not be blamed. So since she was not able to conceive with Laenor, she got pregnant by Harwin so that she could prove that the fault is not with her. 

It might also explain why Corlys & Rhaenys are not raising a stink about the children being bastards. They know the fault is in their son & not Rhaenyra. 

 

Frankly I think both set of parents knew about Laenor being gay but still arranged the marriage for political reason. It is an open secret that Laenor is gay. So it seems to be an unsaid mutual decision to turn a blind eye to the kids not being Laenors. 

But I have to agree that having 3 kids with Harwin was wrong of Rhaenyra because it undermines her children's claim. She might have been able to pass off 1 kid but not 3 when they seem to have strong resemblance to Harwin. This again proves that Targaryens are emotional creatures. Rhaenyra likes Harwin so she continues to be with him. It is not as if she is having random affairs. 

jace was born in the same year as the wedding i think that it simply that rhaenyra got knocked up by mistake before even trying with laenor,and the velaryons couldnt say any thing because if rhaenyra die of high treason thier path to the iron throne is destroyed and it gonna be full hightower takeover so the got forced to play the long term plan and marry jace and luke to velaryons 

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9 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Any adult (especially adults in positions of real power and influence) who goes out of their way to dishonor, endanger and hurt children is evil.

Even Joffrey? C'mon, don't tell me you didn't let out a little cheer when Cersei's baby boy choked his last. 

Quote

Seriously...who feuds with an eight-year-old? What kind of person makes a thirteen-year-old their archenemy?

I'm not sure what you mean by this. If you're talking about the stuff in the yard, yeah that was messed up. 

Quote

I definitely don't disagree with you. She's definitely internalized the last conversation she had with her father. But it doesn't make her right.

It makes her a realist. To me, the tension between realism and idealism is the major theme of this mythology. It's compelling because the questions are not easy; and the actions take often cause as many problems as they solve. 

Where Alicent is totally wrong is in not accepting the Rhaenyra's marriage offer at the small council. Whatever her misgivings about the boys' parentage, that marriage would resolve a lot of potential issues with zero bloodshed. I hope we get to see Otto Hightower's reaction to this in the next episode. He may be ambitious but he's no idiot. 

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1 hour ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Yeah, the problem isn't where the show started, but the number of episodes it has. Too much is happening off-screen.

I must say when it comes to Alicent and the time jum, I felt like the previous ep ending did a decent job of showing her dig in her heels and turning against Rhaenyra.

If young Alicent's reaction was calling the banners to war at Rhaenyra's wedding feast in front of the whole elite of the realm, simply because Rhaenyra slept before her marriage with someone for fun and "betrayed" her trust while she was suffering Viserys for the realm and her House advancement, well then... it makes sense to me to see her extremely strong reaction after three kids of Rhaenyra's love affair with Harwin. Her stepdaughter is still enjoying herself while keeping the title of heir to the throne. Something she's not allowed to have.

Loved her outburst "partial to me" and Olivia Cooke's acting it out. Then she basically went: oh shit, did I say that out loud in front of Larys Strong?!?! I felt it was amazing.

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2 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

What were the reasons? I haven't heard them before.

In the end, there is a reason why a majority of the country -- smallfolk and lords alike -- rose for Rhaenyra.

The Blacks are not good guys but their cause is the just one...which makes them the good guys. To cheat and rob Rhaenyra of her birthright is treason, to let their Viserys rot in his chambers for over week is just twisted and disrespectful (doubly so for people who swear that they are championing honor and decency) and to let Aemond off of his leash was insane

 

 

Rhaenyra has no birthright to the throne. By birthright, the heir is the first born son, Aegon. That is the conflict, because Viserys chooses to do differently. By the system Viserys sets up- firstborn child inherits- then Rhaenys would the rightful queen in his place. 

That's why, again, Viserys could have Rhaenyra as heir, he could marry Alicent and have sons with her, but not both. Both in real life and Westeros started for much less (Daemon Blackfyre got half the realm to join him because of a SWORD. A freakin' sword!).

It's also why posters insisting that Otto is "purely paranoid" for thinking Alicent's sons are in danger  with Rhaenyra on the throne are talking non-sense. Even if Rhaenyra wanted nothing to do with it (and they didn't had much reasons to thrust her at that point), is easy to imagine someone on her side murdering them as a preventive measure or to gain favor, just like Tywin did with Rhaegar's kids without consulting Robert.

People with that "Green=RIGHT!" mentality miss the point GRRM makes that war is an inevitability in a system where absolute power can be granted or removed just on the whims of one person or by who the parent(s) of said person is, or by, quite simply, murdering everyone else in your way. Both Greens and Blacks do horrible things not just because they're mostly horrible people (though they mostly are), but because they have a system that incentives them to do that to get or remain in power or to simply stay alive. 

To further illustrate the point, Rhaenyra has three sons who are obviously bastards, so even if by some miracle the Dance of the Dragons didn't happen when Viserys died, it would happen at some point when she dies.

Also people seem to miss that Jaehaerys, called the Wise not by accident, knowing the potential for conflict, calls for a Great Council because he knows the potential for conflict, so the solution is to give as much people as possible a voice (of course, it's not a democracy, but it's an improvement). Yet Viserys, who won the Iron Throne with a worse claim than Aegon had, never even entertains the thought of doing the same, because he's an idiot.

 

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Just now, Winterfell is Burning said:

Rhaenyra has no birthright to the throne. By birthright, the heir is the first born son, Aegon. That is the conflict, because Viserys chooses to do differently. By the system Viserys sets up- firstborn child inherits- then Rhaenys would the rightful queen in his place. 

That's why, again, Viserys could have Rhaenyra as heir, he could marry Alicent and have sons with her, but not both. Both in real life and Westeros started for much less (Daemon Blackfyre got half the realm to join him because of a SWORD. A freakin' sword!).

It's also why posters insisting that Otto is "purely paranoid" for thinking Alicent's sons are in danger  with Rhaenyra on the throne are talking non-sense. Even if Rhaenyra wanted nothing to do with it (and they didn't had much reasons to thrust her at that point), is easy to imagine someone on her side murdering them as a preventive measure or to gain favor, just like Tywin did with Rhaegar's kids without consulting Robert.

People with that "Green=RIGHT!" mentality miss the point GRRM makes that war is an inevitability in a system where absolute power can be granted or removed just on the whims of one person or by who the parent(s) of said person is, or by, quite simply, murdering everyone else in your way. Both Greens and Blacks do horrible things not just because they're mostly horrible people (though they mostly are), but because they have a system that incentives them to do that to get or remain in power or to simply stay alive. 

To further illustrate the point, Rhaenyra has three sons who are obviously bastards, so even if by some miracle the Dance of the Dragons didn't happen when Viserys died, it would happen at some point when she dies.

Also people seem to miss that Jaehaerys, called the Wise not by accident, knowing the potential for conflict, calls for a Great Council because he knows the potential for conflict, so the solution is to give as much people as possible a voice (of course, it's not a democracy, but it's an improvement). Yet Viserys, who won the Iron Throne with a worse claim than Aegon had, never even entertains the thought of doing the same, because he's an idiot.

 

Perhaps since they are his own children (was not the case with Jaehaerys) Viserys feels it's less controversial.

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2 minutes ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

Rhaenyra has no birthright to the throne. By birthright, the heir is the first born son, Aegon. That is the conflict, because Viserys chooses to do differently. By the system Viserys sets up- firstborn child inherits- then Rhaenys would the rightful queen in his place. 

Do you think there was any realistic possibility/method where Viserys could of made the succession precedent absolute-cognatic?

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Regarding the ages, at the end of the day, they hired a 26-year-old to play a grandmother. Alicent was 28 in this episode. Assuming little Aegon and Viserys are the same age when the war starts as they were in the books, she'll be close to 40 by then.

My issue with Alicent apparently being motivated by her fear for her children is that . . . she doesn’t seem to really like her children all that much? Even in the earlier episodes, the attention she gave her kids felt more like duty than love. This is supposed to be at her core, but it doesn’t really come across that way.

The acting is fine, but Alicent is such an over-the-top uptight witch that it almost invalidates the pains the show took to make her sympathetic early on. 
 

I’ve seen a huge spectrum of reactions to this episode. It seems like book fans liked it better than show-only fans, perhaps because it’s closer to the books than the earlier episodes were.

 

I’ve never given birth, but aren’t you supposed to feed a baby afterwards? It felt weird that no one nursed the baby during that long scene right after he was born.

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