Genetics Problem in HOD

[Winterfell is Burning]

Without heavy interbreeding, the silver hair would go away and probably never come back. We just have to assume they're dominant and not recessive in Westeros because magic.

[Aladdin]

@The Grey Wolf Strikes Back
 

Thank you! It feels weird running into somebody from that world on here lol.

Good luck with your exams I know that’s a beast of a test :0

[Lord Varys]

On 10/1/2022 at 11:06 PM, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

Last time I'm engaging in this topic because we really are talking in circles and there are other, much better things about the Dance to complain of.

Only Alicent and Cole are shown discussing it but how much does GRRM or Condal actually focus on the rest of the court or hell even the rest of Westeros' reaction to the shenanigans of the Blacks and the Greens? Oh, that's right. Zilch. Its an omission of detail we can fill in any which way to suit our fancy, especially since Westeros (unlike the real Middle Ages) has a decent and reliable communication system in the form of ravens.

You can look to the main series - however people there give so much as a fig about the stories about Cersei and her children? Literally nobody but Stannis and Ned.

On 10/1/2022 at 11:06 PM, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

As for genetics, my point was even back then people could logically infer from the fact that there are no other dwarves in House Lannister's lineage (so far as we know) or from the fact that none of Alyssa's descendants have heterochromia (again, so far as we know) that such things are a fluke, a one-off. If they didn't make this connection, even if only subconsciously, the smallfolk wouldn't have heralded Tyrion's birth as an omen from the Seven upon his lord father.

Tyrion is perceived as a broken, twisted thing, and his birth as an ominous omen for House Lannister. No idea how mismatched eyes were seen, by I imagine not necessarily as a sign of semi-divine perfection. While people don't have to assume those traits were common in the Lannister bloodline ... they might believe that Tyrion's and Alyssa's children would inherit their traits. That it didn't happen in the case of Alyssa's children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren, etc. until Shiera Seastar and, possibly, Tyrion is something folks could have remarked upon.

That said - the concept the people at court seem to have of genetics is basically 'children should look like their father' (or perhaps also their mother, although that's not really necessary). They might employ breeders of dogs and horses, but apparently they don't do it themselves, don't have any empirical knowledge about that kind of thing. Viserys does have a better grasp of how things go, though.

On 10/1/2022 at 11:06 PM, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

Furthermore, this use of logical deduction is how, for example, Jon Arryn came to the (correct) conclusion that Cersei's children were bastards. He observed that her children didn't resemble their purported father, then he looked into the appearance of children known to have been sired by the king, then he looked into the king's lineage to see if there were any historical patterns to be aware of and investigated the breeding of dogs (presumably for the breeding of specific traits). While this would not be enough in our world the reasoning and methodology behind Jon Arryn's investigation, given the knowledge and constraints of his time, are fairly sound.

No, Jon's historical research didn't convince him of the twincest. That was something else. Jon looked at the bastards and consulted geneology books to have 'arguments' to convince Robert that Cersei was indeed committing adultery.

He was preparing to go to him to raise the issue and then have additional points to make when Robert was in denial that this kind of thing could have ever happened to him.

Jon is told about the alleged twincest thing by Stannis - and we don't know what 'evidence' he had. What convinced Jon would have been only the looks of the children. And that's not 'evidence' at all. History is pretty much dead, and just because no Lannister-Baratheon matches were recorded where the child had blond hair doesn't mean that Cersei's children couldn't be the first who this was so. She could even argue that she was a particularly pure-blooded Lannister, being the daughter of two first cousins.

In context, it is also quite silly that anyone actually ever conclude Jaime must be the father of the children - he was Cersei's twin and incest a most vile sin. Unless Stannis or Jon actually had any reason to suspect a sexual relationship between the two - due to overhearing or witnessing something that pointed clearly in that direction - it is kind of ridiculous that they would suspect Jaime. He was Cersei's twin brother, so any signs of affection and love he showed to her in public should and would have been interpreted as brotherly love.

[Corvo the Crow]

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[Myrddin]

I guess we can say, in the case of Rhaenyra 's children, the seed is... strong.

[The Grey Wolf Strikes Back]

@Corvo the Crow

I think most of what you said is correct re genetics.

As for advice, I'd suggest the following: 1) Divide the material into smaller chunks you can work on each day (by subject, system, etc.) with more time being devoted to pathology, physiology, pharmacology, and microbiology (of those pathology is the most important, roughly 30-40% of the exam), 2) Give yourself breaks and one day off (One reason I've been struggling with my own test prep is because of burnout and the lack of a life outside of studying in my room), 3) Find a study partner who can help you stay motivated (Another reason I'm struggling incidentally), and 4) Do practice problems every day (UWorld is the most popular QBank but at least one person I know prefers Amboss) and once a month a practice exam, either NBME or USLME (I'd start with 20 and work my way up to 40 or 80 depending on your comfort level).

From what a few other people have told me, its best to learn (particularly if you're strapped for time) by focusing more on actual questions than taking notes or reading textbooks, which I can sort of see since the QBanks tend to have both in-depth explanations of the right and wrong answers as well as a brief summary of the question's main topic and explanation you can jot down/cut and paste/screenshot/etc.

One last thing I'll say is that the actual process of registering for the USLME is a lot more bureaucratic than one would expect so make sure to start filling out your application well in advance of your target session.

Oh, and if you'd like an online study buddy, I'd be happy to volunteer. We're all in the same boat after all (though whether said boat turns out to be the Titanic or one of its life rafts remains to be seen).

P.S. There are a lot of free resources (including entire QBanks and exams!) available through certain WhatsApp and Telegram groups.

[ShadowKitteh]

19 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Errr... who told you that?

Errr… you just did.  

[Corvo the Crow]

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[Annara Snow]

On 9/28/2022 at 5:38 AM, Mendel said:

Rhaenyra’s children have dark hair in HOTD because their father is Harwin of House Strong who is dark haired.  Ok so why then are King Viserys’ children with Alicent, who has dark hair, platinum blond?  Genes for dark hair tend to be dominate so Alicent’s children should be far more likely to be dark haired, unless she is heterozygous for dark hair genes.  Even then it should be 50:50 chance for a dark haired child.  Ned Stark loses his head because he figured the genetics of hair color out.  Someone overlooked some pretty simple genetics.

Because genetics don't work like that.

There's no telling whether a child will have their mother's or their father's hair color, something in between, or their grandparents' hair color. Ditto with skin tone and most other traits. At least not without a DNA analysis.

The thing with Ned Stark's investigation is... that it made no sense. Because genetics don't work like that and can't even theoretically work like that. 

There was a big mistake with genetics, but it was in A Game of Thrones. Because GRRM doesn't understand genetics, or at least didn't at the time.

There is simply no way that the Baratheons would always get children with black hair just because their black hair gene is dominant (in their world; in the real world, hair color genetics don't work like that and it's way more complicated). After just one or two generations of having children with other houses with light hair genes, most Baratheons would have recessive light hair genes, so every now and then, their kids would end up with a pair of recessive genes and be blonde or red haired.

If it was just "Robert's all kids are black haired", that would've made sense. Let's say Robert had two black haired genes, and black hair genes is dominant. Then he'll keep having black haired kids. But every Baratheon in the family line? That's absurd.

[Annara Snow]

On 10/2/2022 at 2:58 AM, Winterfell is Burning said:

Without heavy interbreeding, the silver hair would go away and probably never come back. We just have to assume they're dominant and not recessive in Westeros because magic.

Why would it?

Out of an analogy with the real world? Where... light hair is supposedly recessive? That's not actually true, and the hair color genetics are more complicated.

But red hair gene is recessive... and it still hasn't gone extinct. And I'm pretty sure that's not because all red heads are inbred.

If recessive genes were so likely to disappear, then humanity would've gotten rid of the congenital diseases carried by recessive genes long time ago, and that hasn't happened.

Plus, Valyrians are not like any a real world ethnicity, nor is there reason to think their genes are anything like the real world. So even if silver hair is supposedly recessive (?) in the real world (?), that doesn't mean it is in their world.

Even in the real world, there are at least two different genes for blonde (nor silver) hair - the one that many white people have, and the one that the Melanesian people from the Solomon Islands have.

 

[Annara Snow]

On 10/1/2022 at 7:41 PM, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

@Lord Varys

Not to mention if Alicent had fair hair and blue eyes Jaehaerys mistaking her for Saera would make more sense. The dude was senile, not blind.

 

Viserys isn't blind either, but he still called Alicent "Aemma" in the latest episode of HotD.

[Annara Snow]

On 10/1/2022 at 7:54 PM, Lord Varys said:

No, in the show it is that they don't look Laenor while resembling Harwin. This is different from the book, of course, where it is never said that they looked like Harwin, simply that they didn't have Laenor's nose, hair, eyes. We don't know that Harwin Strong was brown-haired, brown-eyed, and pug-nosed in the book.

In the book the issue is that they look common, not Valyrian, not royal. Harwin Strong seems to be named as the real father by the Greens because he was Rhaenyra's constant companion, not because he resembled the boys. And that's the reason why in the book it isn't really clear who fathered the boys.

Viserys kind of raises the issue that they could look like a more distant ancestor with the horse story he tells Alicent, but nobody else seems to be thinking along those lines.

Alicent thinks she knows that Harwin is the father - and that everybody else knows this as well.

However, her complaints are about their looks, so it is indeed odd that she would dare talking like that while living no visible trace of herself in any of her children. Alicent could have had the high ground in this debate if she had had fair hair herself, but as things stand Rhaenyra or Viserys or anybody, really, could have told the obsessed queen that her children didn't look like her, either, and nobody was doubting her motherhood, so what the hell was she bitching about there?

No, the issue is that Rhaenyra's children don't look like her or like Laenor, or like any of their grandparents, while they also look like Harwin.

And I'm pretty sure it was very strongly suggested in the books that the children looked like Harwin, because that's how I always took it. They didn't have to spell it out. ("Common features" is a ridiculous concept, but I guess they were quoting someone who was expressing such a sentiment). 

Now, could Rhaenyra have guessed what her children would look like? Hell no. For all she knew, they could have all ended up looking like her. And Alicent's kids could have all ended up having auburn hair. Or some of Rhaenyra's kids would have ended up being silver haired and others brown haired, or something in between. One of them could have had silver hair but Harwin's features. Another could have ended up with brown hair but Rhaenyra's features. 

If something is silly about how genetics work in Fire and Blood/HotD, it's that GRRM likes to have kids look 100% like one parent or the other, and he especially likes having them all look like one parent, or almost all (4 out of 5 of the Stark kids look like Catelyn).

HotD is doing the same: all 3 of Rhaenyra's kids with Harwin look like Harwin. All 3 (4?) of Alicent's kids have silver hair like Viserys. Both of Daemon's and Laena's kids have Laena's skin tone.

Which is perfectly possible, don't get me wrong. Just a bit unlikely that it conveniently always happens like that, with no variety, when in real life, siblings will often have very different looks, and children often look like a combination of both parents.

[Lord Varys]

7 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

No, the issue is that Rhaenyra's children don't look like her or like Laenor, or like any of their grandparents, while they also look like Harwin.

And I'm pretty sure it was very strongly suggested in the books that the children looked like Harwin, because that's how I always took it. They didn't have to spell it out. ("Common features" is a ridiculous concept, but I guess they were quoting someone who was expressing such a sentiment).

Common features means non-Valyrian, non-royal looks. And that's the issue with Rhaenyra's children in the book. That's what the Greens say, that they must be 'Strongs' because they do not look Valyrian. I get why people get the impression that they look like Harwin in the book - but it really isn't there. Nobody ever says it.

And to be sure - nobody ever compares them to their mother or their grandparents. It is that they do not have Laenor's hair, eyes, nose. Nobody says anything about them not looking like Corlys, Rhaenys, Viserys, or Aemma (the latter's canonical looks we don't know).

Thus, in the book, there is more than a decent chance that the boys aren't Harwin's sons - because Rhaenyra could actually have had another lover or sperm-donor ... or it may have been Laenor after all. We have no clue how exactly Corlys looked nor his parents and grandparents.

7 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

HotD is doing the same: all 3 of Rhaenyra's kids with Harwin look like Harwin. All 3 (4?) of Alicent's kids have silver hair like Viserys. Both of Daemon's and Laena's kids have Laena's skin tone.

Which is perfectly possible, don't get me wrong. Just a bit unlikely that it conveniently always happens like that, with no variety, when in real life, siblings will often have very different looks, and children often look like a combination of both parents.

That is the reason why I don't like the dark-haired Alicent in the show and in the book illustrations - I think she should be fair-haired - or even have Valyrian hair, possibly due to some Lysene ancestor - so that her stance on the looks of the boys as well as the look of her children makes more sense.

Because, again, dark-haired Alicent complaining that Rhaenyra's sons don't look like the father is completely off if her own children do not resemble her, Alicent, at all.

[Annara Snow]

@Lord VarysI very much disagree.

1) it's theoretically possible that Rhaenyra's children aren't aren't Harwin's... but come on, it's crystal clear in the books that they are Harwin's. It's funny to insist on supposed ambiguity, when there was never really any.

2) Why would Alicent's hair color make any difference? Her children look like their father. Rhaenyra's children look like neither of their parents. Rhaenyra has silver hair, and if she had the so-called "common features", someone would definitely have mentioned it and tried to use it against her. So, she definitely looks like a typical Targaryen.

Also, what difference does it make if Alicent has auburn or blonde or light red hair? She certainly doesn't have silver hair in the books either, or else, something like that would get a mention.  Silver hair is rare in Westeros and is seen as a sign of Valyrian origin.

Finally, Alicent talking like a Targaryen/Valyrian supremacist ("her plain-featured sons", when her sons are actually very good looking) is so much funnier and more hypocritical because she doesn't look Valyrian herself - she practically insulted herself - which is great. Just like she went from "you Targaryens have queer customs" to betrothing her son and daughter to each other.

 

[Winterfell is Burning]

LOL at the idea of Laenor actually being the baby daddy. Poor Rhaenyra, just making love and being faithful to her manly man of a husband and being unfairly maligned by those evil Greens for no reason.

[Annara Snow]

 

On 10/9/2022 at 7:18 PM, Annara Snow said:

Viserys isn't blind either, but he still called Alicent "Aemma" in the latest episode of HotD.

And now he's mistaken her for Rhaenyra, too, kind of like Jaehaerys mistook her for Serra in F&B.