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Lack of sympathetic characters in the series


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Watching HOTD I found myself remembering what many people said back when The Rogue Prince and Princess and the Queen first came out: that they couldn't bring themselves to care for any character and that their biggest takeaway was just "fuck the Targaryens". And, as a faithful adaptation, HOTD in my opinion faces the same problem: lack of characters we can relate to, care for or root for. Even with brilliant actors (really, casting team did their job perfectly) - I found whole lot of main characters just so... unsympathetic. Taking a look at the ensemble, we have:

1) Viserys - who is pretty ineffectual and weak-minded for the most part. Sowed seeds of almost-destruction for his own house due to his indecisiveness and turning blind eye to rising issues within his family. Last episode, #6, ups the ante by turning him into doddering old man who is easily bossed around by Alicent. Overall, not someone most people will sympathize with

2) Daemon - very fun character to watch, but hard to relate to due to his numerous egregious flaws. He engages in petty cruelty. He mocks dead infants. He seduces his underage niece. He kills his wife in cold blood. 

On the other hand, I think he gets decent amount of fan-base because he's the only main character with any kind of clear ambition and reasonable amount of competence to back it up. In the sea of clueless and ineffectual characters - this counts for more than something.

3) Rhaenyra - doesn't give the best impression either. Accepts Viserys' offer to be his heir, but doesn't concern herself with any of the stuff heirs were supposed to do (learning to rule, finding marriage partner, garnering alliances with powerful houses etc.), instead preferring to have fun and fly on her dragon all day long. And while this can be excused due to her young age (although it must be noted that other young characters like Robb and Daenerys are different in that regard), we see this same immaturity even after ten-year timeskip. Her decision to get her children fathered by Harwin instead of Laenor and making it obvious for all the world to see (if two of them had kids, they would have looked like Daemon's and Laena's daughters, instead of what Jace and Luke look like) is far from something any smart and mature leader would do in her place.

4) Otto - at best, he is moderately successful petty schemer. In the end, he couldn't restrain his power-hubgry personality to such a degree that even usually amicable Viserys had no choice but to sack him.

5) Alicent - was actually pretty likable pre-timeskip. While yes, she was a bit of a pushover who everybody took for granted, at least she was overall a nice person, loyal friend and gave smart advice to Viserys when he actually bothered to listen. Her being trapped in a loveless marriage got her a lot of audience sympathies.

Post timeskip, she's like Otto 2.0. , just a lot more bitter and resentful. Her pushing her kids to hate Rhaenyra's is a startling example of both bad motherhood and bad statesmanship. Not no mention she comes off as a power-hungry hypocrite: while she's shocked and disgusted that Rhaenyra slept with Criston, she sees no issue in keeping Criston around as her crony. Or how she condemns Larys for killings of Harwin and Lyonel, yet doesn't report him and even takes advantage of the situation to invite her dad back in King's Landing to serve as new/old Hand. And while we're on a subject of Criston...

6) Criston - really, what more needs to be said about this guy. Even after ten years, he's still angry and bitter with Rheanyra; and his entire personality consists of inventing new petty ways to take his revenge for here, culminating in him encouraging royal princes to bully each other. A sad case of man being mentally trapped 10 years in the past.

7) Laenor - a character I was actually very excited about. Fire and Blood gave us very little info with regards to his personality - and I was curious how will show creators use his opportunity and where will they take his character. As it turns out - they made him into manchild whose only life goals seem to be drinking, fighting and fucking around. He reminds me a little bit of Robert Baratheon's character, not the most flattering of comparisons

8) Laena - actually pretty likeable. However, she's a minor character in the grander scheme of things and got killed of relatively quickly.

9) Rheanys & Corlys - again, two of more likable and relatable charactres in the show, who I would like to see more of, especially Rheanys. From what little we've seen, she would have made much better ruler than Viserys.

10) Larys - if there's such thing as pure unadulterated evil in the show, it's him. His only major act so far is killing his own father and brother (with whom he had no quarrels at all), just to curry favour with Alicent and grease his own political ascent. This man seems to be psychopathically devoid of any human connections and will cheerfully do any atrocity imaginable for his own political benefit. He's like Littlefinger, just without all the nuances that made Littlefinger multi-layered and interesting as a character.

11) Lyonel - another fan favourite, and rightfully so. However, he's still a relatively minor character who got offed relatively quickly.

 

Put it all together, and what we get is a bunch of deeply unsympathetic characters who are hard to relate to, with only few exception being either quickly killed, or minor characters to begin with, or both; leaving behind a bunch of ineffectual assholes. This is not me hating on a show, which I think is really good and eagerly watch every new episode. I find many aspects to be very enjoyable, most of all tense and interesting plot. I care about what will happen and which direction story will go - I just don't care how it will affect the characters. It's not that they're undeveloped or badly written (far from it), just unsympathetic and unrelateable for me.

And for many others, it would seem. Looking back at GOT, we can all remember strong emotional reaction many characters elicited in various audiences. Many people e.g. really liked Ned, related to him, rooted for him and were quite emotionally invested in his fate. Others formed similar bond with e.g. Daenerys. Or Robb. Or Tyrion. Or Arya. Or Davos. Even morally "black" characters like Tywin or Littlefinger had their share of fans, all thanks to how complex and interesting they all were as characters. 

In short, viewers exhibited the level of emotional investment in GOT that is not nearly as much exhibited in HOTD. When reading online reviews and discussions - I see people being quite hooked on with the plot. They comment on what happened and speculate what will happen next. But, when compared to GOT, there is a noticeable lack of investment in the characters. There are no legions of e.g. Rheanya, Alicent or Daemon fans anticipating how well will their favourite character do, celebrating their victories and gritting through their hardships. To give one example: I'm convinced that, if showrunners decided to suddenly kill any major character - the viewers would probably be shocked and amused. But they would not be angry and outraged, like with Red Wedding or Ned's execution. 

I don't have any grand conclusion to top it all off - I just think this is an interesting topic worthy of bringing up and discussing.

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I thought on this very subject with Ryan Condal in our interview with him. He isn't concerned, and focuses on characters being interesting moreso than likeable/sympathetic.

I suspect he's right.

I also think there are characters coming next season that people will feel a lot more attached to in terms of sympathy if that write them correctly 

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I think the problem with having mainly unsympathetic characters is that it undercuts the “dark Shakespearean tragedy” that they’re going for. You can still feel bad for the kids because it’s always sad when children die, but there would be a greater emotional impact if the characters were more lovable at the start. The only character who I think fits the bill is Alicent, but they did such a huge 180 with her from one episode to the next—to the point where even the actress doesn’t seem to like her very much—that it’s more disjointed than tragic. The friendship between her and Rhaenyra never quite worked for me. They had their falling out too early on and most of the first half of the season was Alicent trying to please and placate Rhaenyra. 

Characters can be unlikable, but there needs to be some kind of pathos to them. Since a lot of people here have watched Deadwood, let’s use Al Swearengen for an example. Al’s undoubtedly a bastard: he’s a pimp who abuses his prostitutes, he murders innocent people, he’s involved in crimes and scams. But he also steps up time and again to defend the town, and does have moments of selflessness, like when he mercy-kills an ailing preacher or convinces Trixie to stay with Sol and leave whoring behind. Or take Nucky from Boardwalk Empire, who is a criminal mob boss that nevertheless provides for and aids several less fortunate people. 

Daemon’s most charitable moment is being nice to his niece at her mother’s funeral. Rhaenyra diffuses the situation with Daemon at Dragonstone, then never does anything for another person again until she tries in vain to forge a marriage alliance between her and Alicent’s children fifteen years later. Viserys is. . . pleasant, I guess. But he’ll be dead before the end of the season. 

So while I agree that villainous characters can still be worth rooting for, there has to be something at their core that ties to their humanity. GOT managed to do this with Cersei, but HOTD has not yet managed this for most of their main cast. That element is missing.

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14 hours ago, Knight Of Winter said:

1) Viserys - who is pretty ineffectual and weak-minded for the most part. Sowed seeds of almost-destruction for his own house due to his indecisiveness and turning blind eye to rising issues within his family. Last episode, #6, ups the ante by turning him into doddering old man who is easily bossed around by Alicent. Overall, not someone most people will sympathize with

I do sympathize with him. To a great deal, in fact. I think the best part of him is this quiet strength he shows in face of his terrible illness. No word of complaint, ever. Just continue doing business, looking forward, trying to do a good job. He might fail at that, but he doesn't let it get to him. At least not so far.

Last episode when Alicent first pushed him in the chair and then ran away, he is hurt because she left him, but not because he is sick.

He certainly should put his foot down with Alicent ... but we also can guess (or know) why he doesn't. He likes her, he doesn't want to hurt her too much. Although he clearly never loved her like Aemma. Him alone in the room wearing both their rings was a very touching moment.,

14 hours ago, Knight Of Winter said:

2) Daemon - very fun character to watch, but hard to relate to due to his numerous egregious flaws. He engages in petty cruelty. He mocks dead infants. He seduces his underage niece. He kills his wife in cold blood. 

On the other hand, I think he gets decent amount of fan-base because he's the only main character with any kind of clear ambition and reasonable amount of competence to back it up. In the sea of clueless and ineffectual characters - this counts for more than something.

Never really understood in what way Daemon was a great character. What we saw of him during the reign of Viserys isn't particularly great in any case. They played him as a the super warrior on the Stepstones - well and good - but the constant whining and unsuccessful and petty scheming is not exactly very intriguing.

Although I must say they did write and play the Rhaenyra-Daemon incest thing right. It is a constant attraction that seems to finally pay off. I think their take on it might be somewhat akin to what we can expect from Jaehaerys II and Shaera (assuming Shaera was into her sickly and disfigured brother for which we have no confirmation so far).

The Dance Daemon does some pretty cool things, and one hopes they play up his abilities as a general - and hopefully we don't get the book nonsense of his basically sitting on his hands at Harrenhal for nearly the entire first year of the war (aside from that brief campaign against the Brackens).

14 hours ago, Knight Of Winter said:

3) Rhaenyra - doesn't give the best impression either. Accepts Viserys' offer to be his heir, but doesn't concern herself with any of the stuff heirs were supposed to do (learning to rule, finding marriage partner, garnering alliances with powerful houses etc.), instead preferring to have fun and fly on her dragon all day long. And while this can be excused due to her young age (although it must be noted that other young characters like Robb and Daenerys are different in that regard), we see this same immaturity even after ten-year timeskip. Her decision to get her children fathered by Harwin instead of Laenor and making it obvious for all the world to see (if two of them had kids, they would have looked like Daemon's and Laena's daughters, instead of what Jace and Luke look like) is far from something any smart and mature leader would do in her place.

The Harwin thing must (or should) be explained. But there are clear glimpses with Young Rhaenyra that is groomed to rule and learning. She is very smart, she is perceptive, and she has the strength to rule. She would clearly be a more forceful monarch than Viserys ... and no irresponsible drunk/nutcase like Daemon.

The show does showcase her leadership abilities on Dragonstone in episode 2 ... but there should have been one other such instance where she really showed she properly understood a political situation very well. But we get that in episode 6 ... where we also see our first two Black loyalists with Lord and Lady Caswell on the stairs. That's our first hint that Rhaenyra has a fanbase of her own.

14 hours ago, Knight Of Winter said:

4) Otto - at best, he is moderately successful petty schemer. In the end, he couldn't restrain his power-hubgry personality to such a degree that even usually amicable Viserys had no choice but to sack him.

I think he is actually nuanced enough that I came to like him so far. So far Otto is a capable administrator who was truly loyal to his king and even fooled himself (to a point) into believing that he was doing everything he did for Viserys and the Realm. He isn't giddy that he has information that might destroy Rhaenyra ... which a true schemer would have been. In a sense he remembers one of Jon Arryn and Ned summoning up the courage to tell Robert about the twincest (which they never got to do).

He also clearly has great flaws - his silly feud with Daemon, creating precedents for the succession that were not necessary, not figuring out a way how Rhaenyra and Aegon could rule together one day.

14 hours ago, Knight Of Winter said:

5) Alicent - was actually pretty likable pre-timeskip. While yes, she was a bit of a pushover who everybody took for granted, at least she was overall a nice person, loyal friend and gave smart advice to Viserys when he actually bothered to listen. Her being trapped in a loveless marriage got her a lot of audience sympathies.

Post timeskip, she's like Otto 2.0. , just a lot more bitter and resentful. Her pushing her kids to hate Rhaenyra's is a startling example of both bad motherhood and bad statesmanship. Not no mention she comes off as a power-hungry hypocrite: while she's shocked and disgusted that Rhaenyra slept with Criston, she sees no issue in keeping Criston around as her crony. Or how she condemns Larys for killings of Harwin and Lyonel, yet doesn't report him and even takes advantage of the situation to invite her dad back in King's Landing to serve as new/old Hand. And while we're on a subject of Criston...

Yes, the time jump doesn't work for Alicent. The whole point of this season was to show how the princess and the queen got rivals and enemies ... and we don't really see that. We see the beginning and the end of it (the last nail in the coffin should be the Aemond incident and the Daemon-Rhaenyra marriage). What would have been great, though, if we had seen more little things, things the show would have to invent, of course, but still.

14 hours ago, Knight Of Winter said:

6) Criston - really, what more needs to be said about this guy. Even after ten years, he's still angry and bitter with Rheanyra; and his entire personality consists of inventing new petty ways to take his revenge for here, culminating in him encouraging royal princes to bully each other. A sad case of man being mentally trapped 10 years in the past.

Yes, but that's exactly the man from the book. The guy is a shithead. But there, too, we could have been given more context, especially in the aftermath of his mad murder. I mean, it is laughable that Laenor suffers this guy's presence in the castle he lives in. If Viserys for some reason refused to send this no-name guy to the Wall, then Laenor should have figured out a way to get rid of him. Poison is queen, among other things. But also blatant and open murder, so why not tell Harwin to just slay him. He could have done it.

14 hours ago, Knight Of Winter said:

7) Laenor - a character I was actually very excited about. Fire and Blood gave us very little info with regards to his personality - and I was curious how will show creators use his opportunity and where will they take his character. As it turns out - they made him into manchild whose only life goals seem to be drinking, fighting and fucking around. He reminds me a little bit of Robert Baratheon's character, not the most flattering of comparisons

I'd have really liked him as an effeminate gay cliché and a spoilt and entitled brat besides, growing up with the knowledge that he would be the richest man in Westeros one day, desiring well-built men for his own pleasure. He should have been a man a disillusioned lover might gladly and/or easily kill - because that's what happens in the end.

The change of having him be a dragonrider on the Stepstones was good, though.

14 hours ago, Knight Of Winter said:

8) Laena - actually pretty likeable. However, she's a minor character in the grander scheme of things and got killed of relatively quickly.

Laena is a miss since I really liked it that she had ambition. If they were ever going to do a special episode of flashback scenes covering events after the wedding, I'd really like it if Laena ended up claiming Vhagar with the intention of strengthening her claim to the throne, and marrying Daemon for his dragon.

14 hours ago, Knight Of Winter said:

10) Larys - if there's such thing as pure unadulterated evil in the show, it's him. His only major act so far is killing his own father and brother (with whom he had no quarrels at all), just to curry favour with Alicent and grease his own political ascent. This man seems to be psychopathically devoid of any human connections and will cheerfully do any atrocity imaginable for his own political benefit. He's like Littlefinger, just without all the nuances that made Littlefinger multi-layered and interesting as a character.

There should be more complexity further down the road, but he clearly is this show's greatest villain so far.

14 hours ago, Knight Of Winter said:

11) Lyonel - another fan favourite, and rightfully so. However, he's still a relatively minor character who got offed relatively quickly.

Lyonel as a genuinely good character should soon be replaced, for a time, by Jacaerys Velaryon and eventually Addam Velaryon. The latter is clearly a tragic hero whilst the former could very well become one. There is also hope for Laena's girls, whose role should be enlarged in the show and who have the advantage of surviving it.

I think we could especially get a journey for Rhaena as being the one who brings the Dance to close with the hatching of Morning and all that. It is also there in the book as an important element undermining the cause of the Greens, but with Rhaenyra gone 'the female element' securing victory over Aegon II could easily enough come from Laena's girls (they could also change Aegon II capturing Baela, so she helps organize resistance against the Greens. That could be done by having the fighting dragons move away from the castle, so they eventually crash outside the walls and Baela gets away from Aegon and Sunfyre both.

Similarly, I considered them having Rhaenyra mount Syrax to defend the dragons at the Dragonpit, only for the dragon to be injured and crushing outside the city, giving a better explanation for the stupid flight from the Red Keep (without taking crucial prisoners with them).

If you think about it - they actually left Corlys there, Corlys, whose fleet was blocking their return to Dragonstone. Who in the earth would not take the guy with them so that they could convince or force him to help them out?

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I think the bigger problem with the lack of sympathetic characters is that viewers, like book readers incidentally, become desensitized and apathetic (AKA the eight deadly words-"I don't care what happens to these people"). Seriously, I've read more than one person describe the Dance as "nihilistic" or "misery porn".

Honestly, I think the reason some people like the Dance is because the lack of material allows them to go wild with headcanons to the point they forget those headcanons aren't supported by the actual text.

The Dance in general just isn't very good source material, both because it lacks meaningful character arcs/interactions (the Blacks are overwhelmingly more likable/badass/represented/detailed, no one really grows or regresses, Criston Cole's relationship with Rhaenyra never gets a resolution, most characters die cheap/chump deaths, etc.) and sensible military strategies/tactics (the Greens are incompetent to a degree that is immersion-breaking when one remembers this is a military aristocracy where the whole realm has been at peace for generations so the Blacks should be equally incompetent but they're not to the point an 11yo becomes famous, which dramatically deflates tension because one side can't provide real menace to the other and thus readers aren't kept in any real sort of suspense, case in point being how the Blacks sabotage themselves despite the Greens' redshirt blundering).

Beyond that, the Dance really shows a lack of imagination on GRRM's part when it comes to female agency. Not only does he reduce Helaena to a mad mother in the same vein as Catelyn/Cersei/Alannys/Lysa but he also turns Rhaenyra into this meek, retiring figure who you'd expect to collapse at the first sign of trouble. Seriously, why are male characters allowed to rant, rage, and go out in a blaze of glory when their family members die but female characters almost uniformly (even Alicent by the end!) go mad or retreat from politics entirely (including Good Queen Alysanne after the death of the first Daenerys!)?! 

Rhaenyra should have lead armies on dragonback, say against Borros in the Stormlands or against the Shepherd during the riots. Helaena could have responded to Blood & Cheese by going total war on the Blacks and actually facing Rhaenyra + Daemon during the fall of King's Landing on Dreamfyre, which would not only give her a more active role but also provide 1) More justification for Aegon II giving Rhaenyra such a horrific death (she was personally responsible for the death of both his sister-wife and his grandfather) and 2) A better explanation for why everyone went along with Cole and Aemond's plan since there would still be one dragon in KL.

Another thing GRRM could have done was bring back Saera's sons by having one of them claim Shyrkos after Jaehaerys' death in addition to them serving as Otto's envoys to the Triarchy. That and/or have Aegon (son of Baelon) live to take part in the Dance, either on the Green side as a parallel to Daemon (right down to him marrying the widowed Alicent) or as a wildcard only out for his own advancement.

The fact is, as these ideas of mine indicate, the Dance has potential to be great but you'd have to invest a lot of time in both coming up with original material AND make certain changes to what little canon there is but so far Condal, etc. don't really seem interested in adding all that much to what is, if faithfully adapted, a dry, bleak, barebones narrative.

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Viserys has been one of the most sympathetic characters I've seen presented across both shows imo. He's delusional but he intends well. The scene where he discusses his legacy was so heart-breaking, especially when you know what his legacy will be. 

For Daemon - They definitely could have toned down some of the psychotic murders and the desire for non-consensual sex with his niece, to be sure. 

I like the grey characters generally though, it's a more realistic presentation of war. Generally those waging it care more about their self interest than the immeasurable harm they're causing.   

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I agree there are generally a lack of sympathetic characters in the show, but I read Fire & Blood first and I was expecting that.  This is a war-is-terrible-and-both-sides-are-wrong type of story, which I'm fine with.  The most likable characters in the story, in my opinion, were side characters and never part of the main cast.

I do think Viserys was very sympathetic in the books, and moreso in the show.  Call him an incompetent king if you like, but that doesn't make him a bad person.  I didn't have much of an opinion of Rhaenys in the books (not much character development), but she's very likable in the show and I expect she will remain likeable even after the war starts.

I like all of Rhaenyra's children in the books, and my first impression of the Strong children on the show is very positive.

As someone who is very anti-Team Black and anti-Team Green, the show makes both Alicent and Rhaenyra far more sympathetic than they came across in the books.  Alicent's motives are more fleshed out and understandable (so far), even if her actions end up being the same.  I expect to eventually hate Rhaenyra in the show as much as I did in the books, but it depends on how "Blood and Cheese" goes down.

Daemon is thoroughly repulsive in the book and show, and the fact that he has so many fans even after he murdered his wife (making him even more unsympathetic than he is in the books) makes me sad about the nature of humanity.

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I'm not sure I agree with the idea that these are unsympathetic. A character doesn't have to be 'good' or competent for us to not have sympathy or feel a bond to them. 

I'm only 3 episodes in but it's quite obvious what Viserys' flaws are. He's a mostly quite poor king and a bad father. But I sympathise with him and I like him. He has acknowledged his own mistakes and is aware of his flaws and you can see why he is the way he is. I can empathise with how his choices have affected him and how difficult those have been and how the situation of his life plays upon him emotionally. 

Mostly I think it's important for characters to be interesting and to want to watch more of them, and I think the show does a good job of that. I need to be able to understand who a character is, what motivates them, what worries them, what they want to achieve, what they are scared of in order to empathise with them. The show manages to do that (Rings of Power really struggles with this aspect)

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3 hours ago, sifth said:

I feel the most for King Viserys. He tries to do well, but is kind of an idiot. He's still the best king we've seen on this series, when compared to the likes of Robert, Joff and Tommen.

Yeah, Viserys was even great in the whole Aemond incident, really trying to get to the bottom of things unlike, you know, Robert, who faced a similar conundrum with the Mycah incident.

The guy certainly knows that certain members of his family cannot stand each other ... but he and Daemon had issues, too, and it never got violent between them. So why should he assume that his children and grandchildren cannot make it work?

They are a family, after all.

The show adding his horrible illness also helps explaining why he wouldn't want to think about his family possibly wanting to kill each other. That would only add to his misery.

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27 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Yeah, Viserys was even great in the whole Aemond incident, really trying to get to the bottom of things unlike, you know, Robert, who faced a similar conundrum with the Mycah incident.

The guy certainly knows that certain members of his family cannot stand each other ... but he and Daemon had issues, too, and it never got violent between them. So why should he assume that his children and grandchildren cannot make it work?

They are a family, after all.

The show adding his horrible illness also helps explaining why he wouldn't want to think about his family possibly wanting to kill each other. That would only add to his misery.

Viserys basically makes it known that he didn't care one bit that his son got his eye cut out. Thus basically ensuring there will be no forgiveness by Aemond and Alicent. He was just as bad as Robert. 

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11 minutes ago, Minsc said:

Viserys basically makes it known that he didn't care one bit that his son got his eye cut out. Thus basically ensuring there will be no forgiveness by Aemond and Alicent. He was just as bad as Robert. 

So you think he should mutilate his grandson for cutting out the eye of his son? There is no retribution for this kind of thing, and it is in fact insane of Alicent to demand it. They are a family, this whole thing was a quarrel among children and an accident, not something you resolve with primitive 'an eye for an eye' nonsense.

And Aemond seems to be reasonably fine with the situation, both because he has Vhagar now and, presumably, because he knows that he started and escalated the quarrel.

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1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

So you think he should mutilate his grandson for cutting out the eye of his son? There is no retribution for this kind of thing, and it is in fact insane of Alicent to demand it. They are a family, this whole thing was a quarrel among children and an accident, not something you resolve with primitive 'an eye for an eye' nonsense.

And Aemond seems to be reasonably fine with the situation, both because he has Vhagar now and, presumably, because he knows that he started and escalated the quarrel.

There should be some punishment. He just made it known that saying mere words (which are true) is worth mutilation regarding his grandsons. Yet, you can cut out his son's eye but not even get scolded. 

The others were both the first to start the verbally and physically exchange. The other kids also constantly escalated the conflict rather than admit defeat. 

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4 minutes ago, Minsc said:

There should be some punishment. He just made it known that saying mere words (which are true) is worth mutilation regarding his grandsons. Yet, you can cut out his son's eye but not even get scolded. 

The others were both the first to start the verbally and physically exchange. The other kids also constantly escalated the conflict rather than admit defeat. 

And you think escalating it further with whatever punishment you think would have been appropriate would have diffused the situation?

If they had mutilated Luke the situation would have been made worse, not better.

And the words are not true insofar as the king is concerned. That's his stance, and that's therefore the truth.

The details of the struggle are never retold to Viserys, so it makes no sense to expect him or anyone to assign blame justly. The best was to diffuse this is to treat it as a quarrel among children and push them to apologize to each other.

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45 minutes ago, Minsc said:

There should be some punishment. He just made it known that saying mere words (which are true) is worth mutilation regarding his grandsons. Yet, you can cut out his son's eye but not even get scolded. 

The others were both the first to start the verbally and physically exchange. The other kids also constantly escalated the conflict rather than admit defeat. 

So what punishment do you feel is proper for something like this? Should the man have ordered his own grandsons eye removed? Would have that been the honorable thing to do in your eyes? A literal eye for an eye, lol

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22 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And you think escalating it further with whatever punishment you think would have been appropriate would have diffused the situation?

If they had mutilated Luke the situation would have been made worse, not better.

And the words are not true insofar as the king is concerned. That's his stance, and that's therefore the truth.

The details of the struggle are never retold to Viserys, so it makes no sense to expect him or anyone to assign blame justly. The best was to diffuse this is to treat it as a quarrel among children and push them to apologize to each other.

I am not saying cut out Lucas eye, but he wasn't even as much as scolded. He should have been taken from his mother's and given to the Hightowers as a "ward."

 

If he wasn't going to look into Aemond's maiming then he should have told Rhaenyra to shut it when she brought up the bastards comment. 

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1 hour ago, Minsc said:

I am not saying cut out Lucas eye, but he wasn't even as much as scolded. He should have been taken from his mother's and given to the Hightowers as a "ward."

LOL, what? So they could brutalize the boy until he comes of age? And what 'Hightowers' do you mean there? Otto and Alicent? Or the Hightowers in Oldtown who have nothing to do with the entire episode?

1 hour ago, Minsc said:

If he wasn't going to look into Aemond's maiming then he should have told Rhaenyra to shut it when she brought up the bastards comment. 

The insult is kind of important since it triggered both Jace's and eventually Luke's reaction. Luke originally doesn't understand the insult ... but when he does it seems to be part of the reason why he picks up the knife.

Bottom line is - the only way to diffuse this was to frame it is a children's quarrel and an accident, and to do your best to have the children apologize to each other. It is Alicent's hysteria that turns this into a big issue.

By the way - the writers do suck for having Criston Cole refer to Luke and Jace as Aemond's 'cousins'. They are his nephews, he is their uncle. It is not that hard to get basic degrees of kinship right!

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