Lack of sympathetic characters in the series

[Minsc]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, what? So they could brutalize the boy until he comes of age? And what 'Hightowers' do you mean there? Otto and Alicent? Or the Hightowers in Oldtown who have nothing to do with the entire episode?

The insult is kind of important since it triggered both Jace's and eventually Luke's reaction. Luke originally doesn't understand the insult ... but when he does it seems to be part of the reason why he picks up the knife.

Bottom line is - the only way to diffuse this was to frame it is a children's quarrel and an accident, and to do your best to have the children apologize to each other. It is Alicent's hysteria that turns this into a big issue.

By the way - the writers do suck for having Criston Cole refer to Luke and Jace as Aemond's 'cousins'. They are his nephews, he is their uncle. It is not that hard to get basic degrees of kinship right!

So it is better to signal to Jace and the realm that they have freedom to brutalize his son?  Why would the Hightowers brutalize Luc at Oldtown? Heck, if he wants to bring his family together that offers for greater potential to that then doing nothing. It would allow Luc to grow close with Alicent's house. 

Aemond losing an eye is also important. Yet, he ignores that to focus solely on cross words. 

If he wants to frame as a childish fight between children then there should not being talk about treason being made for cross words. 

Only it didn't. It ensured Alicent and Aemond have reasons to never forgive the fight. Offering no punishment is saying his grandchildren have the right to maim his children. 

[EggBlue]

I don't think there's any problem with non-sympathetic characters . they can very well be interesting and entertaining . the problem is that they haven't been able to flesh out the characters ,thanks to the odd structure for season 1 in which characters inevitably change with every time jump before the audience has a chance to know their personalities, their priorities, their motivations , their allegiances and most importantly how those change over time .  they would have had to invent a lot of things , since the book is basically ambiguous plot points . but that could be a great opportunity . with changing Alicent-Rhaenyra dynamic at the beginning there was the promise  that they intend to use that opportunity and tell their own story. but they clearly didn't . they only changed the beginning of the story and went back to book version with leaving far too many things to imagination. 

still , the show is above average . although that's mostly because of sets , music , cinematography (except dark moments) and acting .I'd say it's a bit like season 6 of GoT . I like watching it because it looks and sounds good and the story and characters are already familiar to me (as a book-reader) , but it's not nearly as good as it could be . say like season 3 of GoT .

[Lord Varys]

29 minutes ago, Minsc said:

So it is better to signal to Jace and the realm that they have freedom to brutalize his son?  Why would the Hightowers brutalize Luc at Oldtown? Heck, if he wants to bring his family together that offers for greater potential to that then doing nothing. It would allow Luc to grow close with Alicent's house.

Jace? Jace didn't put out Aemond's eye. Luke likely has no problems with whatever obscure relations Alicent has at Oldtown. His issues were with the other princes of the Realm, and they have to get along - not the Targaryens and some Hightowers.

Not to mention that doing this would basically mean making a prince of the Realm a hostage for good behavior. That would be insane. Prior to the tensions this may have been a good idea, though.

29 minutes ago, Minsc said:

Aemond losing an eye is also important. Yet, he ignores that to focus solely on cross words.

Viserys does recognize that this was an accident. Luke defended himself, his brother, and his cousins ... like Arya did with Mycah in the Joffrey incident.

29 minutes ago, Minsc said:

Only it didn't. It ensured Alicent and Aemond have reasons to never forgive the fight. Offering no punishment is saying his grandchildren have the right to maim his children. 

There is no indication that anyone saw it that way nor that this was the message the people took away from this incident. Again, Aemond was fine with it - keep in mind he had to be goaded into killing Luke over Storm's End, apparently, and we have no indication that Alicent cared particularly about that episode.

The show version even kind of encouraged Aegon to bully Aemond, so she didn't really have much empathy for him. Of course, the boy is suddenly their golden boy now that he has Vhagar.

[Lord Varys]

Wrong forum.

 

[Minsc]

30 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Jace? Jace didn't put out Aemond's eye. Luke likely has no problems with whatever obscure relations Alicent has at Oldtown. His issues were with the other princes of the Realm, and they have to get along - not the Targaryens and some Hightowers.

Then there should be no problem punishing him by removing him from his mother to be warded with Alicent's family.  

 

31 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Viserys does recognize that this was an accident. Luke defended himself, his brother, and his cousins ... like Arya did with Mycah in the Joffrey incident.

His brother and cousins were the insitigators.  They were the Joffrey in the situation.  Even to the degree of using a blade against a foe armed only with piece of landscape.  Viserys wanting to pretend it was an accident doesn't negate the need for punishment.  Why doesn't he just pretend Aemond calling them bastards was nothing more than a childish insult.  Heck, that would have least led to a situation where it is stated out in the open that it is obvious to everyone that they are bastards.  Which results in Viserys having issue his Maegar-like edict to protect his obvious delusion. 

33 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

There is no indication that anyone saw it that way nor that this was the message the people took away from this incident. Again, Aemond was fine with it - keep in mind he had to be goaded into killing Luke over Storm's End, apparently, and we have no indication that Alicent cared particularly about that episode.

Alicent very much sees it that way.  It is why she flips out because no one is going to recieve any punishment for the act.  Aemond wasn't fine with it.  He only accepted that having a dragon matter more to him then the eye.  He very much wanted to take Luc's eye when they met at Storm's End.  Him having to be goaded into killing Luc over doesn't mean he didn't care.

[Lord Varys]

21 minutes ago, Minsc said:

Then there should be no problem punishing him by removing him from his mother to be warded with Alicent's family.  

And who would have wanted that?

21 minutes ago, Minsc said:

His brother and cousins were the insitigators.  They were the Joffrey in the situation.  Even to the degree of using a blade against a foe armed only with piece of landscape.  Viserys wanting to pretend it was an accident doesn't negate the need for punishment.  Why doesn't he just pretend Aemond calling them bastards was nothing more than a childish insult.  Heck, that would have least led to a situation where it is stated out in the open that it is obvious to everyone that they are bastards.  Which results in Viserys having issue his Maegar-like edict to protect his obvious delusion. 

Viserys does pretend it was, in the end, just a childish insult. Else Aemond and Aegon and possibly Alicent would have been punished for treason. Because that's what this was ... and that's why Alicent looks as afraid as she does when the issue comes up.

Aemond starts the violence. He pushes Rhaena on the floor and threatens to feed her to his dragon. And 'a piece of landscape'? Aemond had a piece of rock there. You know what Targaryens do with pieces of rock in this show? They bash in the heads of (female) relations.

21 minutes ago, Minsc said:

Alicent very much sees it that way.  It is why she flips out because no one is going to recieve any punishment for the act.  Aemond wasn't fine with it.  He only accepted that having a dragon matter more to him then the eye.  He very much wanted to take Luc's eye when they met at Storm's End.  Him having to be goaded into killing Luc over doesn't mean he didn't care.

Not sure how you know what the guy was fine with it. He never demands punishment and he looks pretty smug at the end. His mother demands an eye ... and it might be because of the talk of this woman that he later demands Luke's eye at Storm's End. Rewatch the episode - Aemond and Luke are about to talk to each other like the closely related children they are during the funeral. It is the toxic behavior of Alicent and Criston that makes it impossible that they become friends.

[Minsc]

23 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And who would have wanted that?

It would be offering an olive branch to Alicent in showing that he will stand up for his son after he was maimed rather then just ignore it.

24 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Viserys does pretend it was, in the end, just a childish insult. Else Aemond and Aegon and possibly Alicent would have been punished for treason. Because that's what this was ... and that's why Alicent looks as afraid as she does when the issue comes up.

No, he doesn't rather he makes a big deal about trying to stop that claim.  It is only when his pressing of the issue starts to turn against him that he can't press anything on Aemond and Aegon.  Aegon's line left Viserys with egg all over his face.

26 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Aemond starts the violence. He pushes Rhaena on the floor and threatens to feed her to his dragon. And 'a piece of landscape'? Aemond had a piece of rock there. You know what Targaryens do with pieces of rock in this show? They bash in the heads of (female) relations.

He pushes Rhaena onto the floor after she charges and pushes him.  Arya had a stick, so I guess she and Joffrey were equally armed.  Aemond literally never actually attempts to use the rock until Jace pulls the dagger.

28 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Not sure how you know what the guy was fine with it. He never demands punishment and he looks pretty smug at the end. His mother demands an eye ... and it might be because of the talk of this woman that he later demands Luke's eye at Storm's End. Rewatch the episode - Aemond and Luke are about to talk to each other like the closely related children they are during the funeral. It is the toxic behavior of Alicent and Criston that makes it impossible that they become friends.

Because Viserys made it clear that he doesn't give a shit about his suffering.  Viserys doesn't even try to comfort Aemond or check on how he is feeling.  

Luc and Jace participated in bullying him in the previous episode.  It isn't Alicent and Criston that at fault for their dislike.

[Annara Snow]

On 9/29/2022 at 12:05 PM, Knight Of Winter said:

Watching HOTD I found myself remembering what many people said back when The Rogue Prince and Princess and the Queen first came out: that they couldn't bring themselves to care for any character and that their biggest takeaway was just "fuck the Targaryens". And, as a faithful adaptation, HOTD in my opinion faces the same problem: lack of characters we can relate to, care for or root for. Even with brilliant actors (really, casting team did their job perfectly) - I found whole lot of main characters just so... unsympathetic. Taking a look at the ensemble, we have:

1) Viserys - who is pretty ineffectual and weak-minded for the most part. Sowed seeds of almost-destruction for his own house due to his indecisiveness and turning blind eye to rising issues within his family. Last episode, #6, ups the ante by turning him into doddering old man who is easily bossed around by Alicent. Overall, not someone most people will sympathize with

2) Daemon - very fun character to watch, but hard to relate to due to his numerous egregious flaws. He engages in petty cruelty. He mocks dead infants. He seduces his underage niece. He kills his wife in cold blood. 

On the other hand, I think he gets decent amount of fan-base because he's the only main character with any kind of clear ambition and reasonable amount of competence to back it up. In the sea of clueless and ineffectual characters - this counts for more than something.

3) Rhaenyra - doesn't give the best impression either. Accepts Viserys' offer to be his heir, but doesn't concern herself with any of the stuff heirs were supposed to do (learning to rule, finding marriage partner, garnering alliances with powerful houses etc.), instead preferring to have fun and fly on her dragon all day long. And while this can be excused due to her young age (although it must be noted that other young characters like Robb and Daenerys are different in that regard), we see this same immaturity even after ten-year timeskip. Her decision to get her children fathered by Harwin instead of Laenor and making it obvious for all the world to see (if two of them had kids, they would have looked like Daemon's and Laena's daughters, instead of what Jace and Luke look like) is far from something any smart and mature leader would do in her place.

4) Otto - at best, he is moderately successful petty schemer. In the end, he couldn't restrain his power-hubgry personality to such a degree that even usually amicable Viserys had no choice but to sack him.

5) Alicent - was actually pretty likable pre-timeskip. While yes, she was a bit of a pushover who everybody took for granted, at least she was overall a nice person, loyal friend and gave smart advice to Viserys when he actually bothered to listen. Her being trapped in a loveless marriage got her a lot of audience sympathies.

Post timeskip, she's like Otto 2.0. , just a lot more bitter and resentful. Her pushing her kids to hate Rhaenyra's is a startling example of both bad motherhood and bad statesmanship. Not no mention she comes off as a power-hungry hypocrite: while she's shocked and disgusted that Rhaenyra slept with Criston, she sees no issue in keeping Criston around as her crony. Or how she condemns Larys for killings of Harwin and Lyonel, yet doesn't report him and even takes advantage of the situation to invite her dad back in King's Landing to serve as new/old Hand. And while we're on a subject of Criston...

6) Criston - really, what more needs to be said about this guy. Even after ten years, he's still angry and bitter with Rheanyra; and his entire personality consists of inventing new petty ways to take his revenge for here, culminating in him encouraging royal princes to bully each other. A sad case of man being mentally trapped 10 years in the past.

7) Laenor - a character I was actually very excited about. Fire and Blood gave us very little info with regards to his personality - and I was curious how will show creators use his opportunity and where will they take his character. As it turns out - they made him into manchild whose only life goals seem to be drinking, fighting and fucking around. He reminds me a little bit of Robert Baratheon's character, not the most flattering of comparisons

8) Laena - actually pretty likeable. However, she's a minor character in the grander scheme of things and got killed of relatively quickly.

9) Rheanys & Corlys - again, two of more likable and relatable charactres in the show, who I would like to see more of, especially Rheanys. From what little we've seen, she would have made much better ruler than Viserys.

10) Larys - if there's such thing as pure unadulterated evil in the show, it's him. His only major act so far is killing his own father and brother (with whom he had no quarrels at all), just to curry favour with Alicent and grease his own political ascent. This man seems to be psychopathically devoid of any human connections and will cheerfully do any atrocity imaginable for his own political benefit. He's like Littlefinger, just without all the nuances that made Littlefinger multi-layered and interesting as a character.

11) Lyonel - another fan favourite, and rightfully so. However, he's still a relatively minor character who got offed relatively quickly.

 

Put it all together, and what we get is a bunch of deeply unsympathetic characters who are hard to relate to, with only few exception being either quickly killed, or minor characters to begin with, or both; leaving behind a bunch of ineffectual assholes. This is not me hating on a show, which I think is really good and eagerly watch every new episode. I find many aspects to be very enjoyable, most of all tense and interesting plot. I care about what will happen and which direction story will go - I just don't care how it will affect the characters. It's not that they're undeveloped or badly written (far from it), just unsympathetic and unrelateable for me.

And for many others, it would seem. Looking back at GOT, we can all remember strong emotional reaction many characters elicited in various audiences. Many people e.g. really liked Ned, related to him, rooted for him and were quite emotionally invested in his fate. Others formed similar bond with e.g. Daenerys. Or Robb. Or Tyrion. Or Arya. Or Davos. Even morally "black" characters like Tywin or Littlefinger had their share of fans, all thanks to how complex and interesting they all were as characters. 

In short, viewers exhibited the level of emotional investment in GOT that is not nearly as much exhibited in HOTD. When reading online reviews and discussions - I see people being quite hooked on with the plot. They comment on what happened and speculate what will happen next. But, when compared to GOT, there is a noticeable lack of investment in the characters. There are no legions of e.g. Rheanya, Alicent or Daemon fans anticipating how well will their favourite character do, celebrating their victories and gritting through their hardships. To give one example: I'm convinced that, if showrunners decided to suddenly kill any major character - the viewers would probably be shocked and amused. But they would not be angry and outraged, like with Red Wedding or Ned's execution. 

I don't have any grand conclusion to top it all off - I just think this is an interesting topic worthy of bringing up and discussing.

What is a "sympathetic character"?

Someone good and flawless? Since when is that a requirement for a good fictional character?

Or it someone you can connect to and empathise or feel sorry for? Someone you like because of traits like intelligence or courage or determination etc. even if they are not a nice or good person? Someone you just find really interesting? There are plenty of characters like that in HotD, who are at least one of these things.

I don't need fictional characters to be good, flawless people. I just need them to be interesting and compelling. In fact, the show is making me like many more characters than the book did.

I liked Rhaenyra in the book and I really like her in the show. Alicent can be infuriating, but her backstory makes you feel sorry for her and understand her better. Viserys is flawed but he tries, he is not a bad person, and I feel sorry for him. Daemon is interesting and fun and I can't wait to see what he does next. I felt for Laenor too. Larys is evil, but he's a great villain. The kids are all sympathetic if nothing else then because they're kids caught in this mess. And that includes Alicent's kids. Helena is sweet and mysterious as a dreamer (more interesting than in the book)... and I just spent two episodes wherevI couldn't help but like little Aemond - the kid has guts for sure - and I'm looking forward to seeing Ewan Mitchell as dangerous one eyed older Aemond, even though I know what he's gonna be like and that he'll commit more war crimes than anyone. Even Aegon as a sex obsessed teen was really funny (the actor's facial expressions were priceless) especially when he was confused why anyone would want him to be king. 

And going by the Twitter debates, it's clear that there are lots of fans who got really attached to some of the characters and are passionately taking sides..  so clearly potential audience indifference is not the problem you think it is.

As already mentioned, people loved The Sopranos, Breaking Bad, The Shield... why is this a problem now? Neither Alicent nor Rhaenyra - as the 2 characters the show is centered around - have so far in the show done anything nearly as bad as most of these main characters did on a weekly basis. Though I know the standards are higher for female characters, who are much harsher judged for being messy and having flaws.

 

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, Minsc said:

It would be offering an olive branch to Alicent in showing that he will stand up for his son after he was maimed rather then just ignore it.

And you know anyone in the story actually would see this as an olive branch and/or want it?

2 minutes ago, Minsc said:

No, he doesn't rather he makes a big deal about trying to stop that claim.  It is only when his pressing of the issue starts to turn against him that he can't press anything on Aemond and Aegon.  Aegon's line left Viserys with egg all over his face.

That is what I said - it is a big a deal ... but Viserys choose to not punish his sons (and wife) as traitors. Which he could have.

2 minutes ago, Minsc said:

He pushes Rhaena onto the floor after she charges and pushes him.  Arya had a stick, so I guess she and Joffrey were equally armed.  Aemond literally never actually attempts to use the rock until Jace pulls the dagger.

LOL, and that is relevant how? Have you ever seen a parent not watching their children's private fights and then assigning blame the way you think Viserys (or anybody else who wasn't there) should assign? Aemond enjoyed humiliating and attacking his female kin there, just as he later liked to insult his nephews.

And if you actually go back to the incident as shown, Aemond also starts the verbal abuse. Rhaena merely complains about the dragon being her dead mother's and that she wanted to claim her ... his first retort is somewhat civilized, pointing out that she should have claimed Vhagar if she wanted her. But then he suggests she should ride a pig because it would suit her. Which is just an insult. Rhaena didn't start this. He did. And it is actually pretty bad because Aemond just met his Velaryon cousins. He has no history with Baela and Rhaena at all. He could have empathized with them because of the loss of their mother and, as a boy desiring a dragon for a long time, he could have also empathized with Rhaena's desire to claim a dragon. But, no. He has to throw around insults immediately.

And he shows what a nasty piece of work he is when he threatens to murder (!) Baela and when he punches a girl into the face. Sure enough, she started it, but this is a boy aspiring to be a knight in a chivalrous world. He should have some common decency, some self-control, when dealing with girls and women. People already started to ship him and Helaena because he defended her ... when the truth of that most likely is that Aemond covets the throne for himself and knows that he would have a better shot at it if he were married to Helaena (Aegon is obviously unsuited for the crown).

He is right there already, the man who is going to butcher all the Strongs on a whim.

2 minutes ago, Minsc said:

Because Viserys made it clear that he doesn't give a shit about his suffering.  Viserys doesn't even try to comfort Aemond or check on how he is feeling.  

Viserys doesn't comfort anyone ... not Aemond, not Luke and Jace, not even Rhaenyra after mad Alicent has cut her. Which was also treason, by the way, another thing that went unpunished.

2 minutes ago, Minsc said:

Luc and Jace participated in bullying him in the previous episode.  It isn't Alicent and Criston that at fault for their dislike.

They all know that this was Aegon's idea. But the point here is that the Aemond and the boys are civil despite all that. They don't hate each other yet, they are fed this by Alicent and Criston. Aegon also likes to play around with Jace and Luke up until Alicent literally says to him 'You must not play with the evil bastard children. They want to steal YOUR THRONE!'

It is just disgusting. I'm very thankful that the show depicts the children in this manner rather than going around having them be mortal enemies for no reason since they were toddlers.

[Minsc]

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And you know anyone in the story actually would see this as an olive branch and/or want it?

I am betting Alicent and Hightowers would want some form of punishment.  I gave a fair alternative to taking Luc's eye but also not just letting him get away with it.

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That is what I said - it is a big a deal ... but Viserys choose to not punish his sons (and wife) as traitors. Which he could have.

Aemond losing an eye should also be a big deal if not more seeing how his was a physical attack and his words were true and everyone knows it.

4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, and that is relevant how? Have you ever seen a parent not watching their children's private fights and then assigning blame the way you think Viserys (or anybody else who wasn't there) should assign? Aemond enjoyed humiliating and attacking his female kin there, just as he later liked to insult his nephews.

Maybe Viserys should show some support for his maimed son then only carrying about coddling his adult adult and her sons.  He enjoyed standing up for himself and no longer being victim to their abuse.

7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

nd if you actually go back to the incident as shown, Aemond also starts the verbal abuse. Rhaena merely complains about the dragon being her dead mother's and that she wanted to claim her ... his first retort is somewhat civilized, pointing out that she should have claimed Vhagar if she wanted her. But then he suggests she should ride a pig because it would suit her. Which is just an insult. Rhaena didn't start this.

Rhaena basically calls him a thief when hanging with his abusers, so he throws his former mistreatment back which is just targeted at his abusers as her.  Is it mature? No, but he is a child that is being ganged up on by a group of children including those that earlier were abusing him.  It isn't surprising that he isn't a font of empathy.

9 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And he shows what a nasty piece of work he is when he threatens to murder (!) Baela and when he punches a girl into the face. Sure enough, she started it, but this is a boy aspiring to be a knight in a chivalrous world. He should have some common decency, some self-control, when dealing with girls and women.

That isn't the reality of their society and he doesn't believe in stories like Sansa.  In a chivalrous world, ladies wouldn't physically attack others.  He is just as much of a child as them.  Adult Targaryens like Daemon and Rhaenyra and Alicent repeated less maturity.

12 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Viserys doesn't comfort anyone ... not Aemond, not Luke and Jace, not even Rhaenyra after mad Alicent has cut her. Which was also treason, by the way, another thing that went unpunished.

Neither Jace or Luc were missing an eye.  A cut on the arm might smart, but it stil isn't a loss of an eye.

13 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

They all know that this was Aegon's idea. But the point here is that the Aemond and the boys are civil despite all that.

Even if that is true, that doesn't excuse their actions.  Maybe that shows how Aemond was more mature than Rhaena and company that even after being insulted he doesn't try to take anyone's eye.

[Aladdin]

On 10/5/2022 at 6:29 PM, Minsc said:

Maybe that shows how Aemond was more mature than Rhaena and company that even after being insulted he doesn't try to take anyone's eye.

lol

lmao

[BlackLightning]

I'm honestly shocked that people think that the pig incident in the Dragonpit was a case of bullying.

It was kids being kids. A joke at best. A prank at worst. Aemond is a bit sensitive yes but there was no malice about that whole incident.

On 10/5/2022 at 6:29 PM, Minsc said:

Maybe that shows how Aemond was more mature than Rhaena and company that even after being insulted he doesn't try to take anyone's eye.

Right because he's too busy threatening to either burn them to death or feed them to his dragon.

 

 

 

[SeanF]

On 10/6/2022 at 12:01 AM, Annara Snow said:

What is a "sympathetic character"?

Someone good and flawless? Since when is that a requirement for a good fictional character?

Or it someone you can connect to and empathise or feel sorry for? Someone you like because of traits like intelligence or courage or determination etc. even if they are not a nice or good person? Someone you just find really interesting? There are plenty of characters like that in HotD, who are at least one of these things.

I don't need fictional characters to be good, flawless people. I just need them to be interesting and compelling. In fact, the show is making me like many more characters than the book did.

I liked Rhaenyra in the book and I really like her in the show. Alicent can be infuriating, but her backstory makes you feel sorry for her and understand her better. Viserys is flawed but he tries, he is not a bad person, and I feel sorry for him. Daemon is interesting and fun and I can't wait to see what he does next. I felt for Laenor too. Larys is evil, but he's a great villain. The kids are all sympathetic if nothing else then because they're kids caught in this mess. And that includes Alicent's kids. Helena is sweet and mysterious as a dreamer (more interesting than in the book)... and I just spent two episodes wherevI couldn't help but like little Aemond - the kid has guts for sure - and I'm looking forward to seeing Ewan Mitchell as dangerous one eyed older Aemond, even though I know what he's gonna be like and that he'll commit more war crimes than anyone. Even Aegon as a sex obsessed teen was really funny (the actor's facial expressions were priceless) especially when he was confused why anyone would want him to be king. 

And going by the Twitter debates, it's clear that there are lots of fans who got really attached to some of the characters and are passionately taking sides..  so clearly potential audience indifference is not the problem you think it is.

As already mentioned, people loved The Sopranos, Breaking Bad, The Shield... why is this a problem now? Neither Alicent nor Rhaenyra - as the 2 characters the show is centered around - have so far in the show done anything nearly as bad as most of these main characters did on a weekly basis. Though I know the standards are higher for female characters, who are much harsher judged for being messy and having flaws.

 

I like Joe Abercrombie’s books, even though most of his protagonists are objectively awful people.  He makes them mostly relatable through his black humour.

[Cashless Society]

On 10/6/2022 at 1:01 AM, Annara Snow said:

What is a "sympathetic character"?

Someone good and flawless? Since when is that a requirement for a good fictional character?

Or it someone you can connect to and empathise or feel sorry for? Someone you like because of traits like intelligence or courage or determination etc. even if they are not a nice or good person? Someone you just find really interesting? There are plenty of characters like that in HotD, who are at least one of these things.

I don't need fictional characters to be good, flawless people. I just need them to be interesting and compelling. In fact, the show is making me like many more characters than the book did.

As already mentioned, people loved The Sopranos, Breaking Bad, The Shield... why is this a problem now? Neither Alicent nor Rhaenyra - as the 2 characters the show is centered around - have so far in the show done anything nearly as bad as most of these main characters did on a weekly basis. Though I know the standards are higher for female characters, who are much harsher judged for being messy and having flaws.

 

It's just one of those vaguely defined terms whose meaning will be whatever the speaker requires it to be to support whatever point they're trying to get across. Usually, the argument is levied against characters that either don't represent you as a person, don't satisfy your wish fulfilment, have no moral justifications that you agree with or remind you too much of people in real life.

On 10/8/2022 at 6:40 AM, BlackLightning said:

I'm honestly shocked that people think that the pig incident in the Dragonpit was a case of bullying.

It was kids being kids. A joke at best. A prank at worst. Aemond is a bit sensitive yes but there was no malice about that whole incident.

One person's joking around is another person's bullying. It doesn't really matter that there are no malicious intents, just that it has malicious outcomes.

[Minsc]

On 10/7/2022 at 11:40 PM, BlackLightning said:

I'm honestly shocked that people think that the pig incident in the Dragonpit was a case of bullying.

It was kids being kids. A joke at best. A prank at worst. Aemond is a bit sensitive yes but there was no malice about that whole incident.

So what is the big deal about Aemond's pig comment to Rhaena and Baela?

Both were intential acts to mock someone that is hurting about something that they can't help. 

[BlackLightning]

12 hours ago, Cashless Society said:

One person's joking around is another person's bullying. It doesn't really matter that there are no malicious intents, just that it has malicious outcomes.

But how do we know that it will have malicious outcomes.

Or how do we know that an innocuous act has a malicious outcome without there being a conversation.

This is off topic, yes but I am asking for me. I can play jokes only to feel that some people felt like I was bullying them.

3 hours ago, Minsc said:

So, what is the big deal about Aemond's pig comment to Rhaena and Baela?

Both were intential acts to mock someone that is hurting about something that they can't help. 

The big deal is that Rhaena had a hard time (like Aemond so he should be sympathetic) getting a dragon of her own, that that dragon belonged to Rhaena's mother, and that Rhaena's mother just died tragically.

Literally...the funeral ended a few hours ago.

 

[Minsc]

2 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

The big deal is that Rhaena had a hard time (like Aemond so he should be sympathetic) getting a dragon of her own, that that dragon belonged to Rhaena's mother, and that Rhaena's mother just died tragically.

Aemond was also having a hard time getting a dragon of his own when Aegon, Jace, and Luc pull the Pink Dread prank.

[Cashless Society]

16 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

But how do we know that it will have malicious outcomes.

Or how do we know that an innocuous act has a malicious outcome without there being a conversation.

This is off topic, yes but I am asking for me. I can play jokes only to feel that some people felt like I was bullying them.

It hampers Aemond's self-esteem, and so to prove himself, he becomes reckless by taking on bigger risks. Would Aemond have tried to claim Vhagar if he hadn't been ridiculed by his brother and nephews? What if he couldn’t tame Vhagar and got the Quentyn Martell treatment? Would the boys not have been partially responsible for that?

[Tyrosh Lannister]

They've made all the greens look bad (no redeeming characters like Daeron). I have some hopes for Healena.

But they've made the blacks sympathetic.