Ser Scot A Ellison Posted September 30, 2022 Share Posted September 30, 2022 To pull another derail out of the Ukraine thread. Can “Freedom” be real… more than an illusion? Does it exist outside the construct of “the Social Contract”? Have ideas of freedom and individual always existed in all human societies? Discuss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted September 30, 2022 Share Posted September 30, 2022 Mods could we please get separate threads for Freedom and Liberty? Kind of gross to just lump them together, Scot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted September 30, 2022 Author Share Posted September 30, 2022 16 minutes ago, Larry of the Lake said: Mods could we please get separate threads for Freedom and Liberty? Kind of gross to just lump them together, Scot. Why? Liberty is freedom from the control of the State in area X. Freedom and Liberty are not quite the same but very close on the same diagram… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted September 30, 2022 Share Posted September 30, 2022 2 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: Why? Liberty is freedom from the control of the State in area X. Freedom and Liberty are not quite the same but very close on the same diagram… Absolutely disgusting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted September 30, 2022 Share Posted September 30, 2022 LOL. Scot, larry is making fun of your tendency to turn any tangent into a thread. There's nothing to argue about here - other than the absurd contention "freedoms" means anything other than the plural of "freedom." Which certainly doesn't warrant its own thread. The tangent is already done, let it die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted September 30, 2022 Share Posted September 30, 2022 Sorry Scot, DMC is correct I was being irreverent. Couldn't help but see Scot leaving the house today, grabbing a jumbo bag of Acme Troll Food, and saying "this thing's gonna be empty by noon." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted September 30, 2022 Author Share Posted September 30, 2022 13 minutes ago, Larry of the Lake said: Sorry Scot, DMC is correct I was being irreverent. Couldn't help but see Scot leaving the house today, grabbing a jumbo bag of Acme Troll Food, and saying "this thing's gonna be empty by noon." Hey… we’re getting hit by Ian today… gotta do something. And I hate seeing the Ukraine news thread getting cluttered up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted September 30, 2022 Share Posted September 30, 2022 5 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: Hey… we’re getting hit by Ian today… gotta do something. Be safe! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted September 30, 2022 Share Posted September 30, 2022 "They hate us for our freedoms.". You never hear "they hate us for our liberties." Is this a mere convention of speech? Like no human has ever vacationed in southern France? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted September 30, 2022 Author Share Posted September 30, 2022 19 minutes ago, DMC said: Be safe! Hope y’all get up and running quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jace, Extat Posted September 30, 2022 Share Posted September 30, 2022 Just for the record, I didn't say that freedom isn't something that people believe in. In fact I stated exactly the opposite. That's what "common myth" means. A myth common to all, which explicitly assumes that folks believe in it. At least regarding themselves. I said that as a motivating factor it carries less than no weight because everyone everywhere will cite freedom when justifying their actions, and thus I cannot measure its impact on national policy. You can see that in what I wrote. 15 hours ago, Firebrand Jace said: Freedom is a common myth, used to reinforce devotion to a preferred oppressor. As a motivating factor it carries less than no weight. Every political grouping in the history of Earth has invoked it as justification. It is an empty word in any language. Safety, on the other hand? Perceived risk? That's something I can measure. Do not mistake me. I am a democrat. You know this. I do not approve of harming others who would not harm you. I don't like the amount of money we give over to our military corporations and the things they use it for. I did not create the structures of the world inside which we all operate. I am merely describing them as accurately as I am able. Something that schools could have done if we, as Americans, weren't so lazy and apathetic that we just let the civil government become subsumed by the realities of MAD. I am not advocating against liberal values, I am explaining how they are already compromised and will be dismissed entirely the moment hot nuclear war is allowed to become a cost-benefit analysis to belligerents. 14 hours ago, Firebrand Jace said: I'm glad you're alright down there. But I do not share your academic certainty in these definitions, sir. History is not written on scantron, but on precedent. Hence my unqualified horror at the world which would unfold in the aftermath of improperly punished nuclear deployments. Like that's literally what every one of my posts yesterday outside the NFL thread is about. The potential consequences of allowing Russia to nuke Ukraine without adequate response out of a very kind but very misinformed sense of compassion and where that road leads to. I take it for granted that in a world where nuclear armed states are nuking non-armed states that there will be a second arms race and that -combined with global warming- will be a disaster for human lives and FREEDOMS everywhere for everyone. Apocalyptic is my response to events I see leading to apocalypse. A personal failing, to be sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorral Posted September 30, 2022 Share Posted September 30, 2022 I hope you and yours are OK, Scot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Anti-Targ Posted October 1, 2022 Share Posted October 1, 2022 5 hours ago, Firebrand Jace said: Just for the record, I didn't say that freedom isn't something that people believe in. In fact I stated exactly the opposite. That's what "common myth" means. A myth common to all, which explicitly assumes that folks believe in it. At least regarding themselves. I said that as a motivating factor it carries less than no weight because everyone everywhere will cite freedom when justifying their actions, and thus I cannot measure its impact on national policy. You can see that in what I wrote. I am not advocating against liberal values, I am explaining how they are already compromised and will be dismissed entirely the moment hot nuclear war is allowed to become a cost-benefit analysis to belligerents. Like that's literally what every one of my posts yesterday outside the NFL thread is about. The potential consequences of allowing Russia to nuke Ukraine without adequate response out of a very kind but very misinformed sense of compassion and where that road leads to. I take it for granted that in a world where nuclear armed states are nuking non-armed states that there will be a second arms race and that -combined with global warming- will be a disaster for human lives and FREEDOMS everywhere for everyone. Apocalyptic is my response to events I see leading to apocalypse. A personal failing, to be sure. This is very meta. A thread created to remove a discussion from the Ukraine war thread, starts talking about Ukraine war. Our whole social contract is based on common myths, or as some others put it imagined realities, we all agree to believe in so that we can function as a society built 99.9% of complete strangers who have very little in common except for belief in some imagined realities: the borders of one's country / state; the power of a piece of paper with some symbols scribbled on it and further scribbled on by some individuals who common mythology tells us were wise masters who knew how things should be forever and ever; the rightness and wrongness of certain behaviours; the acceptableness and unacceptableness of certain expressions of self-determination; the piece of paper that says you own a discrete measured out piece of land which you have an enforceable right to prevent entry by others even to the extent that people who don't know you will help you to defend. As soon as a society can no longer function on the personal relationships between each and every individual in the group (max about 150) then imagined realities become necessities to maintain order and function. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince of the North Posted October 1, 2022 Share Posted October 1, 2022 14 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said: This is very meta. A thread created to remove a discussion from the Ukraine war thread, starts talking about Ukraine war. Our whole social contract is based on common myths,...[snip] Very much agreed. [Paraphrasing] "If we believe something to be real, it is real in its consequences" - W. I. Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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