[Spoilers] Episode 107 Discussion

[The Bard of Banefort]

For what it's worth, I always thought book fans were too hard on Rhaenyra and that she wasn't really any worse than any of the other rulers. I actually liked how the earlier episodes tried to make both sides grey by making Rhaenyra selfish and bratty and Alicent kind and clever. Now it feels like they're going back on that.

I think the reason Laenor/Seasmoke feels like such a huge blunder is because of how meticulous HOTD has been so far in sticking to the lore.

 

Are we getting three mad queens? Alicent, Helaena, and Rhaenyra.

Edited October 3, 2022 by The Bard of Banefort

[SeanF]

32 minutes ago, Minsc said:

When Dany has the wineseller daughters questioned sharply everyone takes that to mentioned tortured rather than them just being asked forcefully.

“Question sharply” and “put to the question” are references to torture, or at any rate the use of violence with questioning, in the books.

But, the show may imply something different.

[DMC]

Just now, The Bard of Banefort said:

I think the reason Laenor/Seasmoke feels like such a huge blunder is because of how meticulous HOTD has been so far in sticking to the lore.

I think that's fair.  Except, when it comes to how dragonriding works, the "lore" doesn't do a great job of sticking to the lore either.

[TormundsWoman]

28 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Edit: the only thing that throws me is Daemon killing the guard, which I initially took as him clearing the way for Quarl to get in there.

Didn’t the entire staged plot need an actual dead body to burn beyond recognition though? I mean Daemon might not have planned to actually kill Laenor who he thinks is a good and honorable man, but he’s definitely not anywhere in the vicinity of “saint” as butterweedsstrover complained. He’d kill the guard if that’s what’s needed. And that was what was needed.

I was in fact a bit worried until now that he’ll become the purely evil dude who’s never be shown as doing anything for anyone else in the entire show. Or never introspectively ponder how depraved he is.
 

This ep has some scenes with items that start to point to a “more than one vibe character”, who’s pure selfish, chaotic and evil. Which I find is a step forward for show Daemon.

Edited October 3, 2022 by TormundsWoman

[Corvinus85]

3 minutes ago, RumHam said:

 

For the record I got that their lines were for show. But in my version Daemon doesn't know that. He pays Quarl for the one major murder and Quarl is like "what about the guards?" and Daemon promises to take are of that. 

But then Quarl goes to Laenor and they plan their escape. 

This can be a valid scenario but for the dialogue between Rhaenyra and Daemon, which is subtle enough to miss key details if not paying attention. I had to watch the whole ending twice. And I fully believe Rhaenyra would have had Laenor killed if Laenor hadn't been cooperative. 

[RumHam]

1 minute ago, SeanF said:

“Question sharply” and “put to the question” are references to torture, or at any rate the use of violence with questioning, in the books.

But, the show may imply something different.

That's the historical record, but it seems incredibly unlikely she said "dad, lets torture your kid till he answers the question" 

either of my neices would probably describe two days without wifi as "torture." Sometimes we use words to convey how serious we are absent their literal meanings? 

[teej6]

4 minutes ago, SeanF said:

“Question sharply” and “put to the question” are references to torture, or at any rate the use of violence with questioning, in the books.

But, the show may imply something different.

Was the phrase ever used in AGOT? So in the show universe, it may not necessarily mean torture. And as a previous poster stated, judging by everyone else’s reaction to Rhaenyra’s statement, it didn’t come across as her asking for the kid to be tortured. I would think there would be gasps in the room and a look of horror on Viserys’ face if that is what it meant.

[RumHam]

2 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

This can be a valid scenario but for the dialogue between Rhaenyra and Daemon, which is subtle enough to miss key details if not paying attention. I had to watch the whole ending twice. And I fully believe Rhaenyra would have had Laenor killed if Laenor hadn't been cooperative. 

I'm sure it will become clear to me tomorrow if I watch it again. But what.. are these key details? what is the smoking gun? what did I miss? I did try watching it twice, but it turns out I was even more fucked up the second time. 

[Minsc]

5 minutes ago, RumHam said:

That's the historical record, but it seems incredibly unlikely she said "dad, lets torture your kid till he answers the question" 

Anymore unlikely than Alicent asking her husband to cut out one of his grandson's eyes?

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, RumHam said:

I think it's far easier to invent a dragon or ignore the rule. All the dragon lore stuff is so unclear it's not really a problem. Maybe they consider themselves "riderless" if they don't see their rider for years. You could even assume Laenor died happily in Myr or whatever in between. 

Addam's whole thing is that he's loyal, and if Laenor returns he should be pissed. 

One imagines Seasmoke remains behind, seemingly riderless as he is actually riderless in the book after Laenor's death.

Now, either the Hull boys show up in the show and Addam claims Seasmoke ... or Laenor returns and rides Seasmoke on Rhaenyra's behalf. Both could work easily enough, although we would then likely not get the 'paranoid Rhaenyra wants to arrest her own husband because he is a bastard and thus loses the allegiance of House Velaryon' plotline ... because that one would make no sense in this context.

We could, of course, also get see the eventual return of Ser Qarl telling us that Laenor died in Essos. But I guesstimate the show will have Laenor come back once he hears about Luke's death. What else could he do, really?

There is, of course, potential for friction in the Black camp with Rhaenyra suddenly having two husbands and consorts ... but I guess they could make it work. They also could work together to fake Laenor's death. Corlys and Rhaenys (if she is still alive) might of course be horrified that Laenor (and Rhaenyra/Daemon) would fuck with them in this way.

The show could also cut Alyn for good, having Baela or Rhaena end up as the wife of Aegon III in the end, since the boy has literally no role in the Dance that matters. The crucial player is Addam, the dragonrider, and he might not be needed now.

 

[teej6]

Just now, RumHam said:

I'm sure it will become clear to me tomorrow if I watch it again. But what.. are these key details? what is the smoking gun? what did I miss? I did try watching it twice, but it turns out I was even more fucked up the second time. 

You didn’t miss much just them showing Daemon killing the guard. I guess everyone (including myself) is inferring from that scene that Daemon was in on the fake death plot. But you could be right and the showrunners probably didn’t intend it that way. 

[Corvinus85]

1 minute ago, RumHam said:

I'm sure it will become clear to me tomorrow if I watch it again. But what.. are these key details? what is the smoking gun? what did I miss? I did try watching it twice, but it turns out I was even more fucked up the second time. 

For one Daemon tells Rhaenyra to grant Laenor this kindness and set him free. Now a psychopath might think that killing a person is setting them free, but I don't think Daemon is that kind.

But the better line follows right on the heels of Rhaenys's anguished cries and Corlys's anger. As audience it's easy to not hear it if your mind is still on the smoldering corpse. In response to Rhaenyra saying that there will be whispers about her involvement, Daemon says that "we will know the truth of it" and then Rhaenrya says that this would make their enemies wonder what else they might be capable of.

[BlackLightning]

Well....

Shit.

[Corvinus85]

4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The show could also cut Alyn for good, having Baela or Rhaena end up as the wife of Aegon III in the end, since the boy has literally no role in the Dance that matters. The crucial player is Addam, the dragonrider, and he might not be needed now.

Cut the Oakenfist? Heresy! Sure, his role is small, but he does bury his brother with that one word on his tombstone. Plus it depends on how far the show intends to go. He plays a part in the aftermath.

They could expand his role by having him involved in the Battle of the Gullet and maybe have more sea battles. One line from GRRM's writings that doesn't make sense is how there were more sea battles in the Dance that land battles. umm, no.

[The Bard of Banefort]

It occurs to me now that Daemon was completely unbothered by Aemond punching his daughter in the face. What a douchebag.

Regarding Aemond and women:

Spoiler

He punches a little girl in the face, disparages Laena's memory, and apparently does refer to Rhaenyra as a whore, but he's also very defensive of Helaena and seeks to console and protect Alicent. He also apparently thinks brothels are gross. It sounds like they're setting him up as a bit of a romantic, which I suppose makes sense for someone who falls head-over-heels for a wet nurse who's old enough to be his mother. 

 

[The Bard of Banefort]

They'll need the Oakenfist if they ever want to do a show about Daeron I, Baelor, or Aegon IV. Although I suppose he could be Vaemond's son instead.

[The Grey Wolf Strikes Back]

@Corvinus85

The line wasn't that there were more sea battles than land battles but that there were both, which is still contradicted by the text since there's only one battle (Gullet) seeing as the Redwynes declare for Aegon but then do nothing.

Another line that makes no sense is how the Dance supposedly divided families more than ever before, pitting fathers against sons and brother against brother, which outside a few isolated incidents like the Tullys and Cargylls, is patently untrue.

Edited October 3, 2022 by The Grey Wolf Strikes Back

[dsjj251]

2 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Rhaenyra and the blacks are pure and awesome. 
 

Alicent and the greens are bitter and awful. 
 

God this show’s bias is sickening.

Where they not in Fire and Blood ?????
Some of the people in this forum keep making this argument and I just dont get it. 

[The Grey Wolf Strikes Back]

@The Bard of Banefort

In Aemond's defense Alys does look younger than her years (like his mother incidentally, talk about Freudian subtext) and may be using magic. (While I'm glad GRRM didn't go all the way as happened in RL I have to admit I am surprised the Valyrians actually drew a line at relationships between father-daughter and mother-son.)

[BlackLightning]

That was the best episode since The Winds of Winter