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[Spoilers] Episode 107 Discussion


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12 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

For one Daemon tells Rhaenyra to grant Laenor this kindness and set him free. Now a psychopath might think that killing a person is setting them free, but I don't think Daemon is that kind.

I dunno maybe I've told on myself a bit, but yeah I can see Daemon thinking he's freeing Laenor. Or at least using that euphemism. 

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1 hour ago, RumHam said:

Yeah, I'm not sold on this "Daemon and Rhaenyra sent them to live happily ever after" thing. That's just not how it was played. Does Laenor look thrilled at the end? 

Well, thinking of it ... if Laenor never returns then, well, perhaps Qarl did cut his throat and threw him into the sea and disappeared wherever the hell he wanted to go. If he doesn't return we could also go with him being killed offscreen ... although I've no idea why the hell they would fake Laenor's death in the castle if they actually wanted to kill him later on.

But then - Daemon may have known Rhaenyra would never agree to a murder, so he pretended to go along with a fake only to hide the real murder behind the fake.

Since Daeron hasn't been mentioned yet, I went back to the spoiler notes which contained the good and accurate information, and there it is said

Spoiler

that he is mentioned by Aemond and Otto specifically, one imagines in one of the last three episodes. It is not specified in which episode that happens, though.

I was getting kind of worried, but now I'm somewhat reassured.

1 hour ago, Colonel Green said:

Rhaenyra didn't ask for that in the show.  Being questioned "sharply" is implicitly what Viserys did afterward, by speaking strictly; nobody reacts like she was asking for him to be tortured.

True, although the fact that she said that one first had me think of what it entailed in the books. But it didn't seem to mean torture as in the book. And it is clear that Rhaenyra just wants Aemond to say his mother's name so she can undermine Alicent in Viserys' eyes.

Really liked the children's quarrel and the inclusion of the birth. So far Aemond is still not that much of shithead, although beating girls in the face is pretty low in this world.

Also enjoyed it that Aemond and Luke or Jace nearly were able to talk when they ran each other after the funeral. They didn't hate each other all that much at that point.

Also, how fucked up is Criston Cole, really? The guy really considers attacking a prince of the blood on the command of the queen consort? And where the hell was he during the night? Viserys gave him the watch. Are we to believe he was with Alicent?

Corlys standing by his grandsons was good. Although the ambition thing could have had more meet if they had gone back to their wedding, and Rhaenys telling Corlys point blank that part of the reason he married her was because she was the only child of her father.

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When it comes to the Rings of Powers comparisons, I'll give TROP a point here: Galadriel and not-Sauron have way more chemistry than Rhaenyra and Daemon do. Them sitting on a log not looking at each other felt way more sensual than watching R&D have sex on a beach.

Edited by The Bard of Banefort
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Now THIS is how you do a fake-out. THIS is how you subvert expectations.

Not any of that idiotic garbage that D&D pulled in season 8.

2 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

The writers could have easily made Rhaenyra more sympathetic by her telling Laenor that she wants to be with Daemon and have them plan the fake death together. It’s also unclear if Daemon had knowledge of the fake death because we see him randomly take out a servant in the hallway. That whole scene was just rushed.

Of course, Laenor himself is not a paragon of purity – a servant had to be brutally killed to take his place.

I don't think it was rushed.

This whole plan -- however brutal -- was a stroke of absolute genius. And yes, it's more than just a bit ruthless but...hey, these are the Blacks. They are very scandalous, but they are just so magnificently badass.

It definitely foreshadows the fact that

Spoiler

The Blood and Cheese horror could very well be a group effort.

But yes, Daemon did have knowledge of the fake death. He was in the same room as them, seeing as he's the one who provided the body. I'm not so sure if the servant Daemon killed was the same servant who said that he would run and go get help.

When I heard Rhaenyra talk initially, I thought she was talking about having two husbands. Then I got lost and I was like "wait she wants to kill Laenor?" Only to find out Rhaenyra did want two husbands...but she can't do it like the Conqueror did. She has to get creative.

Which goes back Helaena's mantra in the episode about how dragons of flesh make dragons of thread and how dragons of thread in turn make dragons of flesh.

Genius!

I love it.

 

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14 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

Cut the Oakenfist? Heresy! Sure, his role is small, but he does bury his brother with that one word on his tombstone. Plus it depends on how far the show intends to go. He plays a part in the aftermath.

They could expand his role by having him involved in the Battle of the Gullet and maybe have more sea battles. One line from GRRM's writings that doesn't make sense is how there were more sea battles in the Dance that land battles. umm, no.

It would depend how far they want to take the story. For the Dance Alyn Velaryon is less than a footnote. Prince Maelor is more important than he is.

Regarding the faked death:

Now, Corlys/Rhaenys don't know anything when they find the body - but this doesn't mean that Rhaenyra is not going to hand them a note written by Laenor explaining things to them. They could be as cruel as to keep things from them ... or not. I'd imagine them not being this cruel is more likely since the whole Velaryon support for Rhaenyra and stuff would literally never make sense if they actually believed Laenor was murdered on Daemon or Rhaenyra's behalf.

This is a glaring, well, plothole in the book, turning Corlys and Rhaenys into Mr. and Mrs. Moron. In addition to the Vaemond incident one would really wonder why the hell they never made a deal with the Greens. Why not declare Laenor's boys bastards and marry Baela to Aemond and Rhaena to Daeron?

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6 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

When it comes to the Rings of Powers comparisons, I'll give TROP a point here: Galadriel and Sauron have way more chemistry than Rhaenyra and Daemon do. Them sitting on a log not looking at each other felt way more sensual than watching R&D have sex on a beach.

Okay did I miss something? When does Sauron appear in TROP? 

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3 minutes ago, teej6 said:

Okay did I miss something? When does Sauron appear in TROP? 

Hahaha it's just a joke. There's a very popular fan theory that Halbrand is Sauron in disguise. Granted, there's a fan theory for why every character is Sauron in disguise. The greatest troll move would be if Sauron never shows up.

Edited by The Bard of Banefort
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20 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

@dsjj251

I always got the impression GRRM was aiming for a "pox on both their houses" but bungled that message by making one side more dislikable and incompetent.

Similar to how the Blackwood/Bracken fight is easily the least balanced fight ever with the Blackwoods always being in the moral right and winning.

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I really enjoyed that one until the last few minutes. What they come up with Laenor's exit just doesn't work for me, and the more I think about it, the more I hate it.

Good things:

  • Plenty of memorable great scenes, with excellent scripting and acting: the funeral, Aemond's ride, the brawl where he loses his eye, the confrontation at the Great Hall, Otto not reprimanding Alicent,...
  • The kid actors were all great, bearing the weight of many scenes with great performances. A pitty that we have to see them go. This show keeps replacing every young actor right after they shine. It's a good thing that by now I'm confident that the replacements will be just as good.
  • Replacing Joffrey by Baela and Rhaena was a great idea. It's also nice to add the notion that Vhagar was supposed to be claimed by Rhaena. It makes sense in-world, and adds an additional layer to Aemond's transgression.

Things I didn't like:

  • Having Laenor fake his death doesn't work at many levels. One would have to be completely soulless to put your parents through this, right after their other child has just died. If they wanted to go that way they should have shown Laenor feeling uncomfortable at home, and distanced from Corlys and Rhaenys.
  • Also, I don't think Rhaenyra would have wanted to make her sons lose their other father figure. It's really cruel.
  • The execution of their plan also streched credulity. Once the young page fled for help, the guards would be there in a minute. I don't think that would be enough time to dress a dead man in Laenor's clothes, put the body in the fireplace, burn it past the point of recognition, and leave the castle unnoticed.
  • And finally, it will cause a lot of complications in the future seasons. As you have already noted, Seasmoke should follow him just as Sunfyre followed Aegon, and after Luke's death and particularly after Rhaenys', Laenor not returning to fight the greens will make no sense (I'm completely convinced that this is the last that we've seen of Laenor. There's no way he'll replace the Hull boys.). I'm sorry, but Laenor had to die.
  • The show's decision to have Daemon murder Rhea is also a problem here. With him marrying Rhaenyra right after Laenor's death, there's no way that Corlys and Rhaenys wouldn't suspect of him.

Random thoughts:

  • After GoT endless scenes of sexposition and gratuitous nudity, it shocked me that Daemon and Rhaenyra's sex scene was that pruddishly filmed.
  • The episode includes the first reference to Alicent's supporters as "the greens". It's reasonable for them to be known by this moniker at that point, but they'll have to invent an excuse to call the other side "the blacks". I hope it doesn't come from nowhere.
Edited by The hairy bear
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26 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

One imagines Seasmoke remains behind, seemingly riderless as he is actually riderless in the book after Laenor's death.

Now, either the Hull boys show up in the show and Addam claims Seasmoke ... or Laenor returns and rides Seasmoke on Rhaenyra's behalf. Both could work easily enough, although we would then likely not get the 'paranoid Rhaenyra wants to arrest her own husband because he is a bastard and thus loses the allegiance of House Velaryon' plotline ... because that one would make no sense in this context.

We could, of course, also get see the eventual return of Ser Qarl telling us that Laenor died in Essos. But I guesstimate the show will have Laenor come back once he hears about Luke's death. What else could he do, really?

There is, of course, potential for friction in the Black camp with Rhaenyra suddenly having two husbands and consorts ... but I guess they could make it work. They also could work together to fake Laenor's death. Corlys and Rhaenys (if she is still alive) might of course be horrified that Laenor (and Rhaenyra/Daemon) would fuck with them in this way.

The show could also cut Alyn for good, having Baela or Rhaena end up as the wife of Aegon III in the end, since the boy has literally no role in the Dance that matters. The crucial player is Addam, the dragonrider, and he might not be needed now.

 

They can still have Alyn and Addam in the show.

In fact, the main ASOIAF series is renowned for characters who make plans not knowing that plans have already been made by other characters.

Case in point: the upcoming Stark succession crisis.

  • Clearly, we know that Robb made Jon Snow his heir. But Robb didn't know that Bran, Rickon and Arya are still alive. And there are only a few people now who know that Jon Snow is now the offical King in the North: the Blackfish almost certainly knows and is up to something as are Maege Mormont and Robett Glover who -- for some reason -- have refused to leave the Neck. The three of them are plotting something...but they haven't heard that Jon is bleeding to death.
  • However, the Manderlys (who are not being included in the succession of King Robb for several reasons) are plotting to make Rickon king not knowing that Bran is still alive and sent Rickon away to be his spare just in case Bran didn't make it. Or maybe they do know; maybe they would prefer it that their future king to not be disabled and depressed.
  • Unbeknownst to them, Bran -- while lightly depressed -- clearly has no intention of setting aside his birthright (much like Rhaenyra). He wants his inheritance...he just is wise enough to understand that he needs help. The whole point of him originally seeking out the Three-Eyed Crow is because Bran knows that he is not prepared to claim his inheritance and that he needs help in getting prepared. He thought that the magic of the Three-Eyed Crow and the old gods would make him whole again...but he will soon find that it makes him more powerful than how he ever could have been.
  • Meanwhile, he will soon find out that the northmen allied with Stannis fully intend on making Arya the Queen in the North...unaware that 1) there are already multiple plans in the works for both Bran and Rickon and that 2) Arya is not Arya. Stannis seems to be okay with this idea; despite the fact that he knows good and well that Sansa is alive out there somewhere.
  • And she is. Sansa thinks she is the last one apart from Jon. As trueborn daughters come before baseborn sons and that men of the Night's Watch have no claim to anything, Sansa believes that she has inherited rule of everything her brother Robb has. Sadly, she doesn't know that she has long since been disinherited and Jon has been legitimized. But fortunately, she doesn't know that Bran and Rickon are still either.
  • Lady Stoneheart does not want Jon to be king. She is looking for her daughters because she loves them. But she is also looking to make one of them (re: Arya) queen. And who can actually forget about Arya who would leap at the chance to ruin everyone else's plans if she knew that everyone apart from Robb and her father was still alive. As would Jon... which brings us back to square 1.

I say all of that to say this: Corlys can feasibly bring Alyn and Addam into the fold not knowing that Laenor is still alive. Rhaenyra and Daemon would be unable to refuse him as doing so would expose and thus weaken them. Especially if the timing of it all sucks. That leads to some very dynamic drama later on down the line when Corlys and Rhaenyra start bickering.

 

I am very interested in seeing what they are going to do in the show. Honestly, people like @EggBlue and @The Bard of Banefort are absolutely correct when they say that the best stuff happens before the war and a lot of the war is all very boring and banal. I think they are going to spice it up. I think Laenor will return and s*** is going to hit the fan when he does. Because they are clearly keeping Laenor alive for a reason. There's a dozen different ways that they could've played the whole "Laenor gets murdered in Spicetown by his jaded lover who then proceeded to disappear in a puff of smoke" game but they chose this?

They kept Laenor alive for a reason and it's going to be big.

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28 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It would depend how far they want to take the story. For the Dance Alyn Velaryon is less than a footnote. Prince Maelor is more important than he is.

Regarding the faked death:

Now, Corlys/Rhaenys don't know anything when they find the body - but this doesn't mean that Rhaenyra is not going to hand them a note written by Laenor explaining things to them. They could be as cruel as to keep things from them ... or not. I'd imagine them not being this cruel is more likely since the whole Velaryon support for Rhaenyra and stuff would literally never make sense if they actually believed Laenor was murdered on Daemon or Rhaenyra's behalf.

This is a glaring, well, plothole in the book, turning Corlys and Rhaenys into Mr. and Mrs. Moron. In addition to the Vaemond incident one would really wonder why the hell they never made a deal with the Greens. Why not declare Laenor's boys bastards and marry Baela to Aemond and Rhaena to Daeron?

Eh, I would think that Rhaenyra letting them know their son is alive would produce different reactions: Rhaenys relieved while Corlys would feel extremely insulted. Worse than even when Viserys screwed him over.

Basically Rhaenyra would tell Corlys that she desperately needed Daemon because he's the badass warrior. But Laenor is also a dragon rider and veteran of the same war Daemon fought in. So her message would be that Laenor is not good enough. How should Corlys feel about that? How could he spend his hard earned resources to fight for someone who discarded his son.

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36 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

I'm not so sure if the servant Daemon killed was the same servant who said that he would run and go get help.

Different servants. The one Daemon kills is a mature guard. The one that calls for help is a younger page, with a different dress.

33 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

This is a glaring, well, plothole in the book, turning Corlys and Rhaenys into Mr. and Mrs. Moron. In addition to the Vaemond incident one would really wonder why the hell they never made a deal with the Greens. Why not declare Laenor's boys bastards and marry Baela to Aemond and Rhaena to Daeron?

It's only a plothole if you buy that Daemon was behind Laenor's murder. I don't think he was. I'm sure Corlys didn't think he was.

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2 hours ago, nara said:

They did bully Aemond in the previous episode, but I got the sense that they learned that from Aegon, not their mother. 

That wasn't bullying. It was just a joke. A prank, at worst.

Then again...is bullying a prank?

2 hours ago, RumHam said:

I really hope she comes into her own when she gets Dreamfyre though, and just wants nothing to do with the game of thrones or her brother. 

She already has Dreamfyre from the looks of it.

Three dragons left Driftmark for King's Landing. Aegon has Sunfyre and Aemond has Vhagar. Who had the fourth?

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Well, that's kind of the point. The show had created their own version of Rhaenyra and Alicent during the first half of the season. Now they're sticking to the FnB interpretation, and the two don't really mesh.

I tried to tell people that the whitewashing and de-aging of Alicent in the first half of the season was a mistake.

But no

In the end, they don't feel like different characters to me. Rhaenyra still Rhaenyra: spunky and blithe and frighteningly intelligent. And Alicent is still Alicent.

It's just the personality traits of the girls have crystallized with age. Rhaenyra's experiences over the years has made her more loving and more thoughtful...which, altogether, has made her ruthless. Why? Because she has more to lose and more to protect. Rhaenyra has always been thoughtful and capable of loving deeply. It's just those personality traits have been concentrated and amplified with age.

Alicent is friendly and gentle and classy. But Alicent has an anxiety problem that has gotten worse with age. Everyone who knows anything about things like anxiety, depression, compulsive disorders and what-have-you knows that, if left untreated, these things get worse with age not better. There is just so much pent-up anxiousness and anger and jealousy within her...it is getting out of control. And it is spoiling all her other good traits.

 

I think Olivia Cooke is playing the hell out of her role. In fact, in the scene with Rhys and herself before the fireplace, I felt like I was looking at Emily Carey. The way that Olivia's Alicent looked at her father when he was talking to her was the same way Emily's Alicent looked at him.

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If Laenor returns later on in the show, then Rhaenyra and Daemon's sons will be denounced as bastards.  It makes no sense for Laenor to return or reappear in any way.  Actually, it would have made more sense for Daemon to have quietly killed him without Rhaenyra's connivance.  

I wish I knew why Daemon was giggling at his wife's funeral and why none of the Velaryons objected or tried to kill him for the insult to Laena.  And why he seems to have no further interest in his daughters.

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4 minutes ago, Raksha 2014 said:

I wish I knew why Daemon was giggling at his wife's funeral and why none of the Velaryons objected or tried to kill him for the insult to Laena.  And why he seems to have no further interest in his daughters.

It is similar to how the Royces seem to just drop it after Daemon killed his first wife and mocks them over it.

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1 minute ago, Raksha 2014 said:

If Laenor returns later on in the show, then Rhaenyra and Daemon's sons will be denounced as bastards.  It makes no sense for Laenor to return or reappear in any way.  Actually, it would have made more sense for Daemon to have quietly killed him without Rhaenyra's connivance.  

I wish I knew why Daemon was giggling at his wife's funeral and why none of the Velaryons objected or tried to kill him for the insult to Laena.  And why he seems to have no further interest in his daughters.

Two words: Targaryen polygamy.

 

16 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

Different servants. The one Daemon kills is a mature guard. The one that calls for help is a younger page, with a different dress.

It's only a plothole if you buy that Daemon was behind Laenor's murder. I don't think he was. I'm sure Corlys didn't think he was.

Still, he should have thought along those lines, no?

Regarding dragons: They must not follow you around. Rhaena was in the West along time, and Quicksilver remained at KL while things didn't go well for her.

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