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[Spoilers] Episode 107 Discussion


Ran
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27 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

Eh, I would think that Rhaenyra letting them know their son is alive would produce different reactions: Rhaenys relieved while Corlys would feel extremely insulted. Worse than even when Viserys screwed him over.

Basically Rhaenyra would tell Corlys that she desperately needed Daemon because he's the badass warrior. But Laenor is also a dragon rider and veteran of the same war Daemon fought in. So her message would be that Laenor is not good enough. How should Corlys feel about that? How could he spend his hard earned resources to fight for someone who discarded his son.

It's narrative genius, I tell you.

But I do think that Rhaenys would be mad. More relieved than anything...but yes, still irritated.

In any case, Corlys and Rhaenyra start beefing with each other about halfway into the war. In my opinion, most of the reasons why they disagreed and got into these pissing matches with each other were lame and immature. This however takes the cake.

Rhaenyra isn't divorcing Laenor though. It's worth mentioning that she can send for Laenor and have her join her as her king consort after her throne is secure. Laenor is a good warrior but Daemon is in another class as he also is something of a political mastermind. He scares Alicent and Otto. Laenor, on the other hand...well, dragon-riding veteran knight or not, Alicent thinks Laenor is a joke and Otto doesn't think of Laenor at all.

Rhaenyra made a really bold move and it looks like it will pay off. To have one warrior husband in your hand and another warrior husband in your back pocket...

Edited by BlackLightning
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The Laenor thing really throws me for a loop, because it's the first time they've done something really, really contrary to the story. I've been told they're being faithful, they have been, most of the changes they've made I've understood as necessities to fit it to a modern television series (making Rhaenyra and Alicent similar in age and dear friends, for example) ,  and they've done some clever things where events happen and the chroniclers all sort of get this wrong... but this one, the text allows no room for a mistake being made. He was stabbed and killed in public, no substitutions were possible. My main concern is that will become a trend -- oh, all the chroniclers were tricked or are lying or are totally wrong, this is what really happened -- and at a certain point you can't keep calling yourself faithful to even the broad outline of George's story if too many factual happenings are turned into twists.

The only thing that makes me think I can see it is if Laenor dies later in a way that most people don't realize but the audience does. For example, hearing about the fracas in Westeros, he returns to Driftmark, hops on Seasmoke, and flies off to save the day at Tumbleton only to die with his dragon, body burned beyond recognition, and the chroniclers are like 'Well, they must have found another dragonseed *shrug*"

But then this means getting rid of Addam, and I would be sad at that, even as I recognize that they may well have to trim some characters to keep it manageable.

Edited by Ran
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3 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

That wasn't bullying. It was just a joke. A prank, at worst.

Then again...is bullying a prank?

She already has Dreamfyre from the looks of it.

Three dragons left Driftmark for King's Landing. Aegon has Sunfyre and Aemond has Vhagar. Who had the fourth?

I tried to tell people that the whitewashing and de-aging of Alicent in the first half of the season was a mistake.

But no

In the end, they don't feel like different characters to me. Rhaenyra still Rhaenyra: spunky and blithe and frighteningly intelligent. And Alicent is still Alicent.

It's just the personality traits of the girls have crystallized with age. Rhaenyra's experiences over the years has made her more loving and more thoughtful...which, altogether, has made her ruthless. Why? Because she has more to lose and more to protect. Rhaenyra has always been thoughtful and capable of loving deeply. It's just those personality traits have been concentrated and amplified with age.

Alicent is friendly and gentle and classy. But Alicent has an anxiety problem that has gotten worse with age. Everyone who knows anything about things like anxiety, depression, compulsive disorders and what-have-you knows that, if left untreated, these things get worse with age not better. There is just so much pent-up anxiousness and anger and jealousy within her...it is getting out of control. And it is spoiling all her other good traits.

 

I think Olivia Cooke is playing the hell out of her role. In fact, in the scene with Rhys and herself before the fireplace, I felt like I was looking at Emily Carey. The way that Olivia's Alicent looked at her father when he was talking to her was the same way Emily's Alicent looked at him.

 

The only problem I've had with the two actresses playing Alicent is that they look so much alike that I can't tell them apart.  They've both done a great job in a non-flashy role that isn't always easy to play.  I loved Alicent's explosion tonight; it was epic.  Can't say I blame her for being a bit testy about her child losing an eye while alone with five other kids who had reason to resent him.  (GRRM seems to have a thing about scenes where royal children are left alone, unguarded and start bullying other noble children and set off very undesirable chains of events that would never have happened in real life since the kids would have had guards a few feet away; Aemond's what, 12 in the episode?  I just remember wondering why the heck Joffrey Baratheon, aged 11 or 12, was allowed to take his young betrothed out for a walk on the Trident, with no escort or guards, and drink with her - where the heck was the Hound?  Bad enough that 9-year-old Arya was allowed to go traipsing off without adult supervision).

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Can we talk about Alicent's behavior in this episode?

Lord God Almighty, was that shameful...

I understand Alicent's feelings (not completely; I don't have children of my own yet...) but to pull a dagger out on a child and charge at them. In public?

Lucerys didn't mean to take Aemond's eye out; yes, they were fighting but the maiming was an accident. Alicent's attempt to do it on purpose in such a state would have killed Lucerys. What then? Based on the way that she was holding the dagger, she was meaning to stab him. Given his size, the size of the knife and the way Alicent was moving, she would've killed him. The dagger would have destroyed his blade.

And the way that Alicent publicly insulted Laenor for his sexuality behind his back. Classy. Corlys was upset by it, but I'm surprised that that didn't cause more of an issue.

1 minute ago, Ran said:

The Laenor thing really throws me for a loop, because it's the first time they've done something really, really contrary to the story. I've been told they're being faithful, they have been, most of the changes they've made I've understood as necessities to fit it to a modern television series (making Rhaenyra and Alicent similar in age and dear friends, for example) , but this one... 

The only thing that makes me think I can see it is if Laenor dies later in a way that most people don't realize but the audience does. For example, hearing about the fracas in Westeros, he returns to Driftmark, hops on Seasmoke, and flies off to save the day at Tumbleton only to die with his dragon, body burned beyond recognition, and the chroniclers are like 'Well, they must have found another dragonseed *shrug*"

But that this means getting rid of Addam, and I would be sad at that, even as I recognize that they may well have to trim some characters to keep it managable.

It doesn't mean that we have to get rid of Addam.

The show hasn't established how many dragons are there. It's nothing to create another dragon.

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Just now, BlackLightning said:

It doesn't mean that we have to get rid of Addam.

The show hasn't established how many dragons are there. It's nothing to create another dragon.

It doesn't mean they're not going to do so, either, however. As I said, it is a concern. We'll see if Seasmoke is mentioned again this season, and obviously casting for next season should give it away.

Also, I have to say, the plan is pretty weak. As I said in our video, what if Qarl and Laenor have a falling out? What if they run out of money and Qarl insists on going to get more? What if Qarl decides to sell out Laenor to the Greens? What if someone in Essos recognizes Laenor and sends word?

If they wanted to be good about it, I suppose they could have it turn out that the waiting ship had instructions to kill both men and dump them in the sea just as they thought they were getting away with it. These would be Instructions from Daemon, who has no problem being a tyrant, who went along with what Rhaenyra wanted only in so far that it got Laenor out of his way but then he would make sure that it stayed that way and had no problem hiding it from her. But I think they would have had to show that now, so I really think he's agreeing to do this risky thing because she has qualms.

We really thought at first that they were doing something really interesting with Rhaenyra and her ambition, something we felt was a good corrective for those concerned that she was too sympathetic (practicing personal sexual autonomy is not evil!), but they've basically done a cop out on this one. Yeah, a nameless servant dies and parents are bereaved, but oh, she needs Daemon so badly and everything Corlys and Rhaenys want for their grandchildren and legacy will fail if they don't do this so it's okay...

Meh. Not my favorite moment of the show, to say the least.

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4 minutes ago, Ran said:

It doesn't mean they're not going to do so, either, however. As I said, it is a concern. We'll see if Seasmoke is mentioned again this season, and obviously casting for next season should give it away.

Also, I have to say, the plan is pretty weak. As I said in our video, what if Qarl and Laenor have a falling out? What if they run out of money and Qarl insists on going to get more? What if Qarl decides to sell out Laenor to the Greens? What if someone in Essos recognizes Laenor and sends word?

If they wanted to be good about it, I suppose they could have it turn out that the waiting ship had instructions to kill both men and dump them in the sea just as they thought they were getting away with it. These would be Instructions from Daemon, who has no problem being a tyrant, who went along with what Rhaenyra wanted only in so far that it got Laenor out of his way but then he would make sure that it stayed that way and had no problem hiding it from her. But I think they would have had to show that now, so I really think he's agreeing to do this risky thing because she has qualms.

We really thought at first that they were doing something really interesting with Rhaenyra and her ambition, something we felt was a good corrective for those concerned that she was too sympathetic (practicing personal sexual autonomy is not evil!), but they've basically done a cop out on this one. Yeah, a nameless servant dies and parents are bereaved, but oh, she needs Daemon so badly and everything Corlys and Rhaenys want for their grandchildren and legacy will fail if they don't do this so it's okay...

Meh. Not my favorite moment of the show, to say the least.

I agree with pretty much all of this.

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8 minutes ago, Raksha 2014 said:

 

The only problem I've had with the two actresses playing Alicent is that they look so much alike that I can't tell them apart.  They've both done a great job in a non-flashy role that isn't always easy to play.  I loved Alicent's explosion tonight; it was epic.  Can't say I blame her for being a bit testy about her child losing an eye while alone with five other kids who had reason to resent him.  (GRRM seems to have a thing about scenes where royal children are left alone, unguarded and start bullying other noble children and set off very undesirable chains of events that would never have happened in real life since the kids would have had guards a few feet away; Aemond's what, 12 in the episode?  I just remember wondering why the heck Joffrey Baratheon, aged 11 or 12, was allowed to take his young betrothed out for a walk on the Trident, with no escort or guards, and drink with her - where the heck was the Hound?  Bad enough that 9-year-old Arya was allowed to go traipsing off without adult supervision).

Well, the fact that all of the children were able to get out of bed and go traipsing off around the castle (in Aemond's case, the entire island) as a problem that was addressed by Viserys. Criston Cole tried to hand wave it away but...at the end of the day, there are way too many armed guards around for them to only show up when kids start screaming bloody murder.

 

I liked Alicent's meltdown, and I loved the way that they handled the fight and the lead-up to it. Aemond should have asked for leave to claim Vhagar as Laena once did. Taking Vhagar without asking would have always had consequences. I like how they are giving the Targaryen girls a bigger role. Daemon is an asshole (but then again...as Rhaenys points, Daemon is Daemon) for being silent on the matter. His nonchalant silence about the matter came off as a tacit agreement with Aemond's claiming of Vhagar...which pits him against his daughter Rhaena.

I also like how Jacaerys immediately assumed responsibility and took charge of the situation. I also thought it was super sweet that Baela and Rhaena immediately sought out Jace for help.

I am absolutely in love with every single Corlys-Rhaenys scene that appears on screen. It is to die for. Love their chemistry. And I love how the actors have aged themselves in the ten year gap. There is limited makeup on Steve Toussaint and Eve Best but they definitely acted like they were ten years older. Particularly Eve Best. It's always incredible to me that actors can portray different ages.

 

That said, I am still very annoyed that they were so obvious about Jacaerys and Lucerys not being Velaryon. @Lord Varys was right: it would have been better if they had made Harwin, Lyonel and Larys (and soon Alys Rivers) black as well.

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9 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Two words: Targaryen polygamy.

Two lines:

Daemon: We could not marry unless Laenor were dead.

Rhaenyra: I know.

9 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Still, he should have thought along those lines, no?

Corlys knew Daemon well. They were together in the Stepstones campaign for many year. It's easy to infer that some degree of friendship evolved from there. Daemon had been in a loveless and politically inconvenient marriage for a decade and the only thing that he had done was complaining.

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16 minutes ago, Ran said:

It doesn't mean they're not going to do so, either, however. As I said, it is a concern. We'll see if Seasmoke is mentioned again this season, and obviously casting for next season should give it away.

Also, I have to say, the plan is pretty weak. As I said in our video, what if Qarl and Laenor have a falling out? What if they run out of money and Qarl insists on going to get more? What if Qarl decides to sell out Laenor to the Greens? What if someone in Essos recognizes Laenor and sends word?

If they wanted to be good about it, I suppose they could have it turn out that the waiting ship had instructions to kill both men and dump them in the sea just as they thought they were getting away with it. These would be Instructions from Daemon, who has no problem being a tyrant, who went along with what Rhaenyra wanted only in so far that it got Laenor out of his way but then he would make sure that it stayed that way and had no problem hiding it from her. But I think they would have had to show that now, so I really think he's agreeing to do this risky thing because she has qualms.

We really thought at first that they were doing something really interesting with Rhaenyra and her ambition, something we felt was a good corrective for those concerned that she was too sympathetic (practicing personal sexual autonomy is not evil!), but they've basically done a cop out on this one. Yeah, a nameless servant dies and parents are bereaved, but oh, she needs Daemon so badly and everything Corlys and Rhaenys want for their grandchildren and legacy will fail if they don't do this so it's okay...

Meh. Not my favorite moment of the show, to say the least.

If anything, this major twist positions Laenor (and/or Qarl) to be the one to find Viserys in Lys, set him free and bring him, the Rogares and their wealth back to Westeros.

So...in the end, Laenor would only be stealing one of Alyn's major story-beats. One that occurs long after the war is over.

Alyn can remain as Lord of Driftmark and husband of Baela while Laenor can leave once again to have more adventures.

Someone recognizing Laenor in Essos and sending word? Well, then we will see infighting amongst the Blacks and the Greens will have another tool in their arsenal. Maybe Laenor's cover being blown in Essos will be tied to the Triarchy's involvement in the war...maybe it'll be just what Otto needs to push for the Triarchy's attack on the Velaryons.

I thought that they would be doing something really interesting with Rhaenyra as well. I thought they wanted to take the tyrannical "Maegor with Teats" thing and run with it. But then, you run into the problem of the whole Daenerys thing in GoT where any woman with any sort of ambition and power either becomes a treacherous villain, a somewhat conniving perpetual victim who felt that her being raped was empowering or both...so that's probably why they backed out.

I am still convinced -- to this day -- that D&D appropriated parts of the ending of the Dance for the ending of GoT. The showrunners and writers of HoTD have to do something different now.

I'm not sure it is a good idea for two powerful female characters (i.e., revolutionaries at that) to become mentally ill mass-murderers who are then brutally murdered by their royal male relatives.

 

 

 

ETA: is there any way that we send a message to Ryan Condal? I really think that we can and should keep Addam and Laenor both.

Edited by BlackLightning
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Only explanation for changing Laenor's death that I can think of would be to make Addam and Alyn his actual children by an Essosified Marilda seeing as F & B hints pretty strongly that they're actually Corlys' bastards.

And I find the idea that Aemond should have asked permission laughable. As is made clear in both the book and the show, his request would have been denied (on top of tipping off the Blacks they need to claim Vhagar asap). And its not like Laena got Viserys' permission when she claimed Vhagar even though he's the king and Vhagar's last two riders were Targaryen.

Aemond is a bit more sympathetic in the show version. Not only did the Blacks throw the first punch, they outnumber him four-to-one (on top of baby Joff being replaced by the near-in-age not-twins) and used the knife after blinding him with sand.

As for Criston, I got the impression that being a Kingsguard he was on duty outside the royal apartments the way he was in episode 4, not actively walking the walls. And I think people underestimate how easy it would be to sneak around, escape, hide, fake your death, impersonate someone, etc. in those times.

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7 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Well, the fact that all of the children were able to get out of bed and go traipsing off around the castle (in Aemond's case, the entire island) as a problem that was addressed by Viserys. Criston Cole tried to hand wave it away but...at the end of the day, there are way too many armed guards around for them to only show up when kids start screaming bloody murder.

 

I liked Alicent's meltdown, and I loved the way that they handled the fight and the lead-up to it. Aemond should have asked for leave to claim Vhagar as Laena once did. Taking Vhagar without asking would have always had consequences. I like how they are giving the Targaryen girls a bigger role. Daemon is an asshole (but then again...as Rhaenys points, Daemon is Daemon) for being silent on the matter. His nonchalant silence about the matter came off as a tacit agreement with Aemond's claiming of Vhagar...which pits him against his daughter Rhaena.

I also like how Jacaerys immediately assumed responsibility and took charge of the situation. I also thought it was super sweet that Baela and Rhaena immediately sought out Jace for help.

I am absolutely in love with every single Corlys-Rhaenys scene that appears on screen. It is to die for. Love their chemistry. And I love how the actors have aged themselves in the ten year gap. There is limited makeup on Steve Toussaint and Eve Best but they definitely acted like they were ten years older. Particularly Eve Best. It's always incredible to me that actors can portray different ages.

 

That said, I am still very annoyed that they were so obvious about Jacaerys and Lucerys not being Velaryon. @Lord Varys was right: it would have been better if they had made Harwin, Lyonel and Larys (and soon Alys Rivers) black as well.

 

The kid actors are all quite good and convincing in very different roles; none of them are angels.  Jacerys is a great kid, though; he would have made a good king.  

Corlys & Rhaenys are my favorite couple (and my favorite characters) in the series.  The actors are doing a fantastic job playing a great power couple who have believable chemistry with some ups and downs (they are not always 100% in agreement as we saw in this episode).  

 

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17 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

Two lines:

Daemon: We could not marry unless Laenor were dead.

Rhaenyra: I know.

I'm with @Lord Varys

It's Valyrian polygamy.

It was a blink-and-you-miss-it type of thing...but did you catch the fact that Rhaenyra and Daemon's wedding was not a normal wedding? It was Valyrian. When was the last time you heard of a Valyrian wedding ceremony? Oh, that's right...to get around the fact that Valyrian polygamy is incompatible with Westerosi law and politics.

Also, did you catch how Rhaenyra said that Daemon would be her prince consort but how earlier in the episode she had stated that Laenor is her king consort and that she genuinely does love him?

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Just now, farerb said:

It seems that Daeron is in fact cut from the show considering no one has mentioned him.

I suspect they are leaving themselves room to have him in, but I also think that if they are cutting Addam, they are probably cutting Daeron too. They've broken down the second season and scripts are already written, so I think casting will reveal all... or maybe there's some reference in the last three episodes.

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1 minute ago, farerb said:

It seems that Daeron is in fact cut from the show considering no one has mentioned him.

Unless the Greens get ahold of their own dragonseeds or if some other character that is nominally a Black gets ahold of a dragon and becomes a turncloak, then we will have a major problem. Cutting Daeron is a huge mistake. Doubly so now that they went through the trouble of casting Rhea Royce.

No one can fill the hole that Daeron leaves in the of Daeron but Daeron.

There are no other dragonriders on the side of the Greens. At the time where we will need Daeron the most, Helaena will be spiraling out of control, Aegon will be missing and on the brink of death, Aemond will be razing in the Riverlands.

Even if we retro-fitted Helaena or Aemond over that way in that story, they won't even care. Helaena will be half-crazy and thus unconcerned with the atrocities taking place in the Reach. Aemond is an atrocity unto himself so he would really be unconcerned about it.

It just causes a problem.

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3 minutes ago, Mithras said:

Women are so 20th century. We live in the age of gays now. You can't kill your gay characters, especially if they are black. How the show handled Rhea and Laena would have caused a feminist outrage (and deservedly so) if we still lived in the 20th century.

If only this show had a "Galadriel" to tell Alicent that "You cannot sate thirst with seawater" and then stab Lucerys' eye herself.

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