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[Spoilers] Episode 107 Discussion


Ran
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10 minutes ago, Raksha 2014 said:

 

The kid actors are all quite good and convincing in very different roles; none of them are angels.  Jacerys is a great kid, though; he would have made a good king.  

Corlys & Rhaenys are my favorite couple (and my favorite characters) in the series.  The actors are doing a fantastic job playing a great power couple who have believable chemistry with some ups and downs (they are not always 100% in agreement as we saw in this episode).  

 

Exactly.

And I like how all of them were bloodied up. It literally communicated the fact that none of them were innocent but that the bloodiest one Aemond was the most guilty.

 

I also really like how they are making Aemond multidimensional and, dare I say, likable. And I am surprised that I like it so much.

 

Did you also notice how Aegon wants absolutely nothing to do with any of this? LOL I loved it.

Alicent has been turning her kids (mainly the boys because Helaena is not buying it lol) against Rhaenyra by telling them about the bastardy of Rhaenyra's sons. Regardless of the truth of the matter, Alicent should not be involving children into adult business and expecting them to still act like children. Like why is the ascension of Rhaenyra Targaryen any of their concern? Does Viserys know that Alicent is plotting to marry Aegon to Helaena?

In any case, it has nothing to do with bias. The way that Rhaenyra and Alicent are raising their children is the reason why Rhaenyra's sons are sweethearts and Alicent's sons are rogues.

I thought it was really cool when Aemond acknowledged that he heard it from his mother (if she had been exposed, she would have gotten into some serious trouble) but passed the hot potato to the very unprepared Aegon. And how Aegon deflected the sharp questioning by making it about appearance (book line quote!) instead of who he had heard it from. Viserys, nowhere near as bright as he should be, allowed him to shrug it off as teen gossip rather than accept the fact that Aegon is hoodwinking him.

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48 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

His nonchalant silence about the matter came off as a tacit agreement with Aemond's claiming of Vhagar...which pits him against his daughter Rhaena.

Frankly, did Aemond do anything that Daemon wouldn't have done in his place?

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4 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

This episode had some of the best writing and acting, and some of the worst directorial and showrunning decisions. Dear lord.

Aemond rode a dragon once and immediately became an asshole LOL :lmao: 

There were so many unintentionally funny moments in this episode. Aemond clinging to the handles of his saddle, Luke saying "I don't want it," the endless shots of the kids pouting, and of course, that ending. Laenor not only let his parents believe that their son was murdered and his children lose their father, he also managed to escape into anonymity--despite having a dragon. Yep, Laenor kinda forgot that he has a dragon. Imagine if D&D wrote this :rofl:

I changed my mind. Aegon is the best character on the show. He's the only one who knows how to have a good time.

Gotta agree with the contrast in quality between the writing and direction. Those day-for-night scenes were hideous to look at.

But it makes sense that Aemond would be like that, getting payback on those Velaryons for the stunt they pulled at the dragon pit. And I doubt him clinging on was unintentional comedy.

Wouldn't Leanor bringing Seasmoke along raise tonnes of suspicion?

Cheese's name has to be thrown in the hat for best character as well. The guy has avoided doing his actual job and is instead roaming around the Red Keep and feasting on the crown's dime.

4 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

I greatly enjoyed the aftermath scene in the hall with both Rhaenyra and Alicent trying to get the upper hand. It was pretty much a prelude to the real Dance, and the shot at the end with the battle lines clearly drawn as Viserys walked away enforced that. There was some significance there with Rhaenyra staring at Aegon’s Dagger beyond just the threat of the steel, with the fire in the background, but I’m not sure exactly what.

I interpreted it as a reminder why Rhaenyra is adamant on being the heir, with her dad telling her about Aegon's prophecy and all that while also drawing attention to her compartmentalising, will the prophecy still hold of bastard children sit the throne? 

4 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Wait, why did Daeom pay Qarl if Daemon did the killing? Wouldn't they have just consulted Laenor first and he would have convinced Qarl?

Laenor and Qarl are going to need some funds to be living it up in Essos. 

4 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

If that is the case, then Corlys's line about history remembering names not blood becomes meaningless. I would think that line pretty much told us what sort of man Corlys is and what he will do with regards to his legacy and succession. 

Why does the show have to support the characters' viewpoint?

3 hours ago, RumHam said:

That seems to be the consensus and I'm probably wrong, being stoned and maybe having missed some key bit when I looked at my phone.

However as I said Daemon seemed real sinister with Quarl. As someone else pointed out if they're all in on it why go to Quarl at all? Why doesn't Rhaenyra approach her husband? Why does Rhaenyra object that she cares for Laenor? Why does he he resentfully row his own boat in the end? Why do they end on that a twist-reveal?

I think what's confusing people is "set him free" which I took as Daemon saying kill him, not being literal. 

 

Edit: the only thing that throws me is Daemon killing the guard, which I initially took as him clearing the way for Quarl to get in there. But Laenor isn't dressed in his uniform at the end or anything.

Clandestine doesn't necessarily mean sinister. If they had shown Rhaenyra speaking to Laenor, then they would have ruined the twist ending. Laenor resentment could be that he had trick both his parents into believing that he is dead, made worse by the fact that it is so soon after the funeral of his own sister. Also, he has to get out of town quickly without being seen, those waves are coming in strong and the weather looks really cold.

3 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Granted, it's weird that Daemon wanted witnesses if Laenor was supposed to escape. He could have killed anyone in his place. What if more than one person showed up?

These aren't world-ending plotholes, but they are the kind of thing people crucified D&D for.

Everyone will go along with what a witness says. Just killing and burning a random person and claiming its Leanor will raise suspicion and result in an investigation, which invites many unforseen scenarios that may end up exposing the plot.

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15 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

And I like how all of them were bloodied up. It literally communicated the fact that none of them were innocent but that the bloodiest one Aemond was the most guilty.

They all seemed equally guilty.  Sure, Aemond was smug but they confronted him first.  He pulls a rock, but only after they all attack him.  Similarly, they were the ones to actually pull a real weapon out.

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24 minutes ago, Ran said:

I suspect they are leaving themselves room to have him in, but I also think that if they are cutting Addam, they are probably cutting Daeron too. They've broken down the second season and scripts are already written, so I think casting will reveal all... or maybe there's some reference in the last three episodes.

But isn’t it too late in the game to introduce Daeron? Even if he’s squiring in Oldtown, seems to me it’s a bit of a stretch not to have mentioned him as yet. Can they really introduce another prince in Season 2 with no mention of his existence. Don’t know how that would play out. 

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38 minutes ago, farerb said:

It seems that Daeron is in fact cut from the show considering no one has mentioned him.

 

36 minutes ago, Ran said:

I suspect they are leaving themselves room to have him in, but I also think that if they are cutting Addam, they are probably cutting Daeron too. They've broken down the second season and scripts are already written, so I think casting will reveal all... or maybe there's some reference in the last three episodes.

I highly doubt that Daeron has been cut, the opening credits show that Alicent has 4 children, they wouldn't do that if they plan to cut him. I'm still with the assumption that Daeron is in Oldtown and that he will be The primary point-of-view character for the Reach portion of the war in the following seasons.

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Just now, Cashless Society said:

 

I highly doubt that Daeron has been cut, the opening credits show that Alicent has 4 children, they wouldn't do that if they plan to cut him. I'm still with the assumption that Daeron is in Oldtown and that he will be The primary point-of-view character for the Reach portion of the war in the following seasons.

Ah! I missed that. Still, strange not to have mentioned his existence as yet. 

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6 minutes ago, Minsc said:

They all seemed equally guilty.  Sure, Aemond was smug but they confronted him first.  He pulls a rock, but only after they all attack him.  Similarly, they were the ones to actually pull a real weapon out.

Aemond clearly doesn't respect any of the other kids.

Which is his mother's and grandfather's fault.

 

Because if he did respect, he would not have claimed Vhagar without asking for leave. At least have a polite conversation about it. Laena asked the king for permission as Vhagar was his late father's mount. I'm not sure why Aemond wouldn't approach Daemon, the girls or even his king father and do the same thing.


It is understandable why Baela and Rhaena got so upset. Their mother has just been buried and (this next point could and would have been established much earlier and clearer if the last episode wasn't so rushed) Rhaena was supposed to be taking Vhagar for herself.

Aemond insulted them all, struck a couple of nerves and bruised some egos. Rhaena pushed him out of anger. Aemond pushed back harder, knocking her over. Big sister Baela got involved and that was the moment when it stopped being a cute kids' fight.

Don't forget Aemond actually threatened to kill them.

8 minutes ago, Cashless Society said:

the opening credits show that Alicent has 4 children

I don't know how on Earth you guys is able to make heads or tails of the opening credits.

I don't understand the symbols and it moves way too fast for me.

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4 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Aemond clearly doesn't respect any of the other kids.

They don't seem to respect him either. Jace and Luc played a role in the pig prank in just the previous episode.

5 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Because if he did respect, he would not have claimed Vhagar without asking for leave.

Vhagar isn't any of theirs so why does he have to ask their leave?

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19 minutes ago, teej6 said:

Ah! I missed that. Still, strange not to have mentioned his existence as yet. 

It's because the alleged fourth blood line is always obscured by part of the "city" in the foreground.

Which to me means they're leaving it up in the air: there was a Daeron... who died in his infancy and that's why no one mentions him, or they decide that yeah, they're going to have him.

To me, the continued failure to mention him certainly suggests they were, at the time of filming much of S1, uncertain that they could fit him into S2. As I recall, Ryan suggested that the opening credits were designed late, which may support the idea that by that point they decided they were having him... or it also supports the idea that I note above, that until they broke down S2 and wrote scripts they didn't know for sure, so they were leaving the door open but weren't yet committing.

It will be rather jarring if we hear nothing at all about him through half a season when he should exist, and then suddenly he's there next season, and with a dragon to boot. But I can understand if that's because they literally didn't know what they were doing during the S1 filming.

Personally, I can easily see them giving Aemond a lot of Daeron's role in the early part of the Reach campaign, and basically ahving him flit back and forth from the riverlands to the Reach. Let him be off down south helping the Hightowers when Cole is killed at the Fishfeed, for example. 

Edited by Ran
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7 minutes ago, Minsc said:

Vhagar isn't any of theirs so why does he have to ask their leave?

Vhagar technically belongs to Daemon's branch of the family.

And it's also polite.

7 minutes ago, Minsc said:

They don't seem to respect him either. Jace and Luc played a role in the pig prank in just the previous episode.

First of all, the pig prank was Aegon's idea. Jace and Luc defer to Aegon.

Second of all, was the pig prank that bad? I thought it was funny. Does it make you a bully if you play pranks and jokes on people?

I just thought that the boys were being boys and that he was being too sensitive.

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6 minutes ago, Ran said:

It will be rather jarring if we hear nothing at all about him through half a season when he should exist, and then suddenly he's there next season, and with a dragon to boot. But I can understand if that's because they literally didn't know what they were doing during the S1 filming.

Is it anymore jarring than Steve Buscemi showing up 5 seasons into The Sopranos and everybody acting like he's been around the whole time?

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2 hours ago, The hairy bear said:
  • And finally, it will cause a lot of complications in the future seasons. As you have already noted, Seasmoke should follow him just as Sunfyre followed Aegon

Should it? Dragonlore is just convenience and the show may be doing its own thing. If Laenor told the beast to stay? Would it stay? Would the long distances and time passed ultimately sever their bond? Does Laenor need to die for Seasmoke to bond again? Don't know really.

 

2 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

Laenor not returning to fight the greens will make no sense

This is a gripe i have with online people, more often than not when  someone argues a plot is "bad writing" or "makes no sense" they actually mean just "i didn't like it".

It makes perfect sense that Laenor isn't coming back, he is washing his hands. He wants nothing  to do with this bullshit anymore and he's leaving to never come back, that's the implication of this means he's very selfish? Yeah.

 

All in all, saying that you didn't like it because it was a bitch move (which emotional as it was, the move was coward) is one thing, arguing it's bad wriiting cause of that it's another.

 

Loved the episode from beginning to end.

 

Btw, was it just me that noticed Viserys saying Aemma? Man pulled a Robert.

 

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3 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Vhagar technically belongs to Daemon's branch of the family.

Why does he belong to them? Dragons chose their own master, moreover Vhagar is just as much Targaryen thus Viserys as Daemon's.

4 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Second of all, was the pig prank that bad? I thought it was funny. Does it make you a bully if you play pranks and jokes on people?

Was Aemond's comments any worse than their prank?

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1 minute ago, Cashless Society said:

Is it anymore jarring than Steve Buscemi showing up 5 seasons into The Sopranos and everybody acting like he's been around the whole time?

He was in jail the whole time though. We didn't first meet his parents and then siblings and have them never mention him. 

It was still a little weird because he'd never been mentioned, but it's not the same thing. 

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1 hour ago, Mithras said:

... as are the sworn enemies of polygamy :rofl: 

Didn't the characters explicitly state this is impossible without Laenor out of the way which leads to Laenor faking out their deads so they can marry in peace?

That goes explicitly against the notion of polygamy being a thing accepted, even for Targbreed.

 

Btw, that Vaemond dude is as stupid as he is in the books. He's basically begging to be murdered at this point.

Edited by frenin
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18 minutes ago, Cashless Society said:

Is it anymore jarring than Steve Buscemi showing up 5 seasons into The Sopranos and everybody acting like he's been around the whole time?

He was in jail for 17 years, people would definitely not act like he's been around the whole time, but if you mean they acted as if he was a part of their background, sure, which is fine, because he wasn't germane to the story and I really don't think most people would spend every day thinking about a cousin who got the book thrown at him and is doing a long stretch in jail.

Edited by Ran
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11 minutes ago, RumHam said:

He was in jail the whole time though. We didn't first meet his parents and then siblings and have them never mention him. 

It was still a little weird because he'd never been mentioned, but it's not the same thing. 

 

4 minutes ago, Ran said:

He was in jail for 17 years, people would defintely not act like he's been around the whole time, but if you mean they acted as if he was a part of their background, sure, which is fine, because he wasn't germane to the story and I really don't think most people would spend every day thinking about a cousin who got the book thrown at him and is doing a long stretch in jail.

 

Spoiler

Yes, that was especially jarring to me because when Tony B shows up, everyone keeps talking about how him and Tony S were inseparable and as close as brothers. But nowhere is this ever mentioned prior. Even in the flashback scenes, it's just Tony, his parents and his sister but his closest cousin is nowhere to be found. Compare that to how Feech La Manna gets a whole backstory before his appearance and subsequent red herring-esque subplot.

 

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4 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

It's Valyrian polygamy.

It was a blink-and-you-miss-it type of thing...but did you catch the fact that Rhaenyra and Daemon's wedding was not a normal wedding? It was Valyrian. When was the last time you heard of a Valyrian wedding ceremony? Oh, that's right...to get around the fact that Valyrian polygamy is incompatible with Westerosi law and politics.

The last instance of polygamy in the family dates from a century ago, and it was done by the infamous Maegor. Jaehaerys I had a hard time convincing the realm and the Faith to accept the doctrine of Exceptionalism.

The exchange I quoted clearly proves that both Daemon and Rhaenyra believe that Laenor should be "dead" in order for them to marry. If they thought that the realm, the king or the Velaryons would accept polygamy, then they wouldn't have had any need of such a risky and contrived plot.

4 hours ago, teej6 said:

But isn’t it too late in the game to introduce Daeron?

I'd say it's even possible that Daeron will be born during the last time jump between episodes 7 and 8. I could see why they want Joffrey to be slightly older than Dareon. For Joff they'll need and actor that'll be present at many scenes (he'll always be around Rhaenyra) and that will need to play convincingly how he wants to fight until he tries to ride her mother's dragon. Meanwhile, I guess Daeron will have lesser screentime, and as a character he just gets pushed around by older men.

3 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

I don't know how on Earth you guys is able to make heads or tails of the opening credits.

I don't understand the symbols and it moves way too fast for me.

I play the video at a 0,25 pace, while pausing every few seconds and making constant screencaps. It's impossible to get any sense of it otherwise. It should be completely revamped for the second season.

3 hours ago, frenin said:

Should it? Dragonlore is just convenience and the show may be doing its own thing. If Laenor told the beast to stay? Would it stay? Would the long distances and time passed ultimately sever their bond? Does Laenor need to die for Seasmoke to bond again? Don't know really.

Well, we'll have to see how they justify a badly wounded Sunfyre reuniting with Aegon. It's something they should address then. I honestly do not have much hopes in them doing so.

3 hours ago, frenin said:

This is a gripe i have with online people, more often than not when  someone argues a plot is "bad writing" or "makes no sense" they actually mean just "i didn't like it".

It makes perfect sense that Laenor isn't coming back, he is washing his hands. He wants nothing  to do with this bullshit anymore and he's leaving to never come back, that's the implication of this means he's very selfish? Yeah.

I claim that it's "bad writing" and "makes no sense" because up to this point, Laenor wasn't written as someone who would make such a drastic decision. A few minutes ago Laenor said that he loved "his children", and that he wanted to commit more to Rhaenrya's cause. Using your own words, he had never been portrayed as someone "very selfish".

If we had seen Corlys privately belittling him because of his inability to produce a legitimate son, if we had seen Rhaenys telling him that she was ashamed of him, if we had seen him distant from the kids and struggling to treat them as their own, if we had seen that he was really in love with Qarl and he was being forced to separate from him... then I may still say I don't like their choice, but I wouldn't say it's badly written.

Edited by The hairy bear
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