[Spoilers] Episode 107 Discussion

[TeethGrinder]

I’m extremely confused as to why they’d go this route.

So what happens Laenor’s dragon?

Is it really necessary to do this to Rhaenys? Ffs she probably would have gone along with the plan if she'd have been told, but now she thinks both her children are dead. 

I feel like they didn’t want the blacks to look too bad by killing Laenor but they just destroyed his parents’ lives, as did he. And they killed some random guard in his place. I think they could have just came up with a more narratively fitting death than the book, which is pretty lame but this just seems so convoluted. 

[butterweedstrover]

6 hours ago, teej6 said:

I have no idea what you are rambling about as usual. My liking a comment has what to do with what??

As I posted after Ep 2, I didn’t like the fact that they made Alicent much younger and Rhaenyra’s confidant and best friend as then they would have had to show a pretty convincing falling out between the two, which they didn’t. And Alicent’s shift to conniving, ambitious operator on the show was poorly executed. 

Weren’t you the one after episode 4 that stated “Rhaenyra fans are crumbling”. From you past posts, it seems like you are having a hissy fit that your head canon is not coming to pass. 

What are with these mental gymnastics? 
 

This is what you said: “The Rhaenyra we are getting now in the show is more or less the book version so you can’t say she is being whitewashed” 

But that is not what we are getting. We are getting an expanded version of Rhaenyra with none of the jealousy, bitterness, or malice described in her post-pregnancy. 
 

I’m not throwing a hissy fit because the show is selecting positive attributes to her exclusively not inherit to F&B or the first five episodes to help viewers easily figure which side is good and which side is bad. 
 

Which is bad writing. That’s why you liked a post saying the salacious rumors in the book related to Rhaenyra were probably untrue, to drive home the point that she is like this in the book. 
 

Which is not true because F&B either doesn’t expand upon these details or openly contradicts them.

[TeethGrinder]

14 minutes ago, Tha_Prince_Ali said:

Rather than making the Strongs Black they should have just made Baela and Rhaena lightskin imo. Jace and Luke look about right to me for being 1/4th Black. But Baela and Rhaena look like they could be my sisters and I have two African parents. 
 

A lot of white people for some reason assume that anybody with even a tiny bit of Black ancestry will look 100% like us. It would have been a strong visual indicator to show the audience that somebody who’s 1/4th Black can usually pass pretty easily and it’s the dark hair that gives the Strong boys away. 

Yup, I thought it was weird how they seemed to be indicating that skin colour was a factor when it really shouldn't be. 

Ryan Giggs was a pretty famous footballer - He was 3/4 white 1/4 black and yet very few even know that he has black heritage at all. 

[butterweedstrover]

6 hours ago, RumHam said:

 

For the record I got that their lines were for show. But in my version Daemon doesn't know that. He pays Quarl for the one major murder and Quarl is like "what about the guards?" and Daemon promises to take are of that. 

But then Quarl goes to Laenor and they plan their escape. 

If that is what they wanted that is what they would have showed. Instead the dead guard was burnt as false proof which Daemon would have been in charge of. 
 

But then you headcanon isn’t going to add moral ambiguity around team Rhaenyra being the good guys as always.

[C.T. Phipps]

37 minutes ago, Raksha 2014 said:

Hopefully...I thought Targaryen bigamy had been outlawed after Maegor.

I think it's an interesting case because it's very likely Lyanna was Rhaegar's second wife versus the idea that Rhaegar would annul his marriage.

[Khloey]

This is the first episode of the season that I'm mad about.. the end really bugs me..

The episode was perfect before the last 10minutes.. It's rushed, they should have stick to Laenor's death and have both Daemon and Rhaenyra plot it.

God I hate the political correctness in America right now... Why would they do that to Laenor ? By choosing not to kill a gay character (because I don't see any other reason as to why they didn't kill him), they turned his character weak and made him a coward !

The guy abandons his entire family and leave his parents and children believing him to be dead. Especially after showing such a devotion to his sister, doesn't make any sense.. Laenor was better dead, honestly. What they did is actually worse, Laenor should have had a warrior's death to mirror his sister's death.

[C.T. Phipps]

6 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

But that is not what we are getting. We are getting an expanded version of Rhaenyra with none of the jealousy, bitterness, or malice described in her post-pregnancy.

I think we'll get plenty of that in the coming episodes.

[C.T. Phipps]

1 minute ago, Khloey said:

The guy abandons his entire family and leave his parents and children believing him to be dead. Especially after showing such a devotion to his sister, doesn't make any sense.. Laenor was better dead, honestly. What they did is actually worse, Laenor should have had a warrior's death to mirror his sister's death.

He did what he had to do to make sure the attacks against Rhaenyra and his adopted children stopped.

[Daeron the Daring]

22 minutes ago, Tha_Prince_Ali said:

Rather than making the Strongs Black they should have just made Baela and Rhaena lightskin imo. Jace and Luke look about right to me for being 1/4th Black. But Baela and Rhaena look like they could be my sisters and I have two African parents. 
 

A lot of white people for some reason assume that anybody with even a tiny bit of Black ancestry will look 100% like us. It would have been a strong visual indicator to show the audience that somebody who’s 1/4th Black can usually pass pretty easily and it’s the dark hair that gives the Strong boys away. 

I remember, when it was leaked that Corlys will be black, we had talks on the forum, and agreed upon the legitimacy of the Strong boys not being questioned based on skintone IF they make the twin daughters of Daemon and Laena white, and we were pretty confident that's what they're gonna do. 

Well, they didn't.

It's not bothering to me, but that's certainly an inconsistency.

[C.T. Phipps]

3 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I remember, when it was leaked that Corlys will be black, we had talks on the forum, and agreed upon the legitimacy of the Strong boys not being questioned based on skintone IF they make the twin daughters of Daemon and Laena white, and we were pretty confident that's what they're gonna do. 

Well, they didn't.

It's not bothering to me, but that's certainly an inconsistency.

I mean it just underscores it for casual viewers. The whole point is that it's an issue after al.

[butterweedstrover]

6 hours ago, TormundsWoman said:

Didn’t the entire staged plot need an actual dead body to burn beyond recognition though? I mean Daemon might not have planned to actually kill Laenor who he thinks is a good and honorable man, but he’s definitely not anywhere in the vicinity of “saint” as butterweedsstrover complained. He’d kill the guard if that’s what’s needed. And that was what was needed.

The moral fidelity we are dealing with on the show isn’t about ethics, but about how it is framed to the audience. 
 

It is framed as Daemon killing a nameless NPC to help two gay lovers live happily ever after. 
 

And even his marriage to Rhaenyra is framed as an effort to stop the greens from overthrowing the rightful queen. 
 

The only way fans have been able to defend this sort of one dimensional othering of the greens is by claiming Daemon Actually meant to kill Leanor and Rhaenyra actually wanted to torture Aemond. 

Which is just not what the show is telling us. If there were any other examples post episode 5 they would be mentioned by there are none which why people have to grasp at these thinly held assumption.

Edited October 3, 2022 by butterweedstrover

[butterweedstrover]

6 hours ago, Minsc said:

Anymore unlikely than Alicent asking her husband to cut out one of his grandson's eyes?

Minsc, there was an appropriate reaction to Alicent’s comment. 
 

Rhaenyra’s was held as a normal suggestion. If it was a call for torture Alicent would have gone ballistic.

[butterweedstrover]

6 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

Where they not in Fire and Blood ?????
Some of the people in this forum keep making this argument and I just dont get it. 

F&B was a bias retelling which this show decided to expand upon and add psychological nuance to. Which they did for the first five episodes then erased all said character development to make it easier for fans to root for the good guys. 
 

And they removed from Rhaenyra’s character stuff from the books that would have made her look bad like her jealousy towards Alicent, her bitterness, etc. 

The calm, thoughtful, and diplomatic Rhaenyra post time skip is a creation of the show, not the book. 
 

As was making Alicent team up with a Larys she knows burned down a castle with his own family and attack the princess with knife trying to literally stab her and just be an all around pathetic villain.

[EggBlue]

 

• did they have to have Daemon laugh out loud in Laena's funeral and totally abandon his kids? every time I think there's no room to hate this guy more ...
• little Luke is absolutely my favorite character!
• why is Corlys such a Daemon fanboy? 
•  Aemond!  this kid has some cruelty(inherited from his mom) but he's really likeable despite it! at least he's smart (unlike his uncle who's just cruel!) . I mean , in one move he hit Luke , Jace and later Aegon! and with his "our blood will be pure" speech , he surely has Daemon vibes . but I definitely prefer him to Daemon for now. 
• I did not expect to like keeping Laenor alive , but the alternative (Rhaenyra having him killed after he gave "you deserve more" speech) was just horrible! but they've got to keep him keep coming back to have it make sense . he can't leave his poor mother like that and one would expect with the rumors spreading about R&D having a hand in Laenor's death , Rhaenys wouldn't just give her life for Rhaenyra's cause . besides , Laenor clearly loves his kids and it'll make sense if he comes back upon hearing Luke's death for revenge or something . although , an alternative is to keep Luke alive and have him reunited with his "father" . after all he doesn't want Driftmark!
• by the way, how can Addam get Seasmoke, now that Laenor's alive? 

 

[butterweedstrover]

6 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

When it comes to the Rings of Powers comparisons, I'll give TROP a point here: Galadriel and not-Sauron have way more chemistry than Rhaenyra and Daemon do. Them sitting on a log not looking at each other felt way more sensual than watching R&D have sex on a beach.

Incidentally I thought the first five episodes of HotD were much better than RoP. 
 

Episode 6 was a major reversal for both. I mean Galadriel was given more moral complexity than Rhaenyra (post time skip) with her genocide speech.

[chrisdaw]

21 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Minsc, there was an appropriate reaction to Alicent’s comment. 
 

Rhaenyra’s was held as a normal suggestion. If it was a call for torture Alicent would have gone ballistic.

lol what is this? There are no two meanings of question sharply.

[butterweedstrover]

30 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I think we'll get plenty of that in the coming episodes.

Well until then Rhaenyra and the blacks have been showed to be nothing but saints in the context of this world with all the sympathy given to them. 
 

And the show has gone outside the material to make sure we know Alicent is evil like teaming up with Larys while knowing he is cold-blooded murder, attacking the princess with a knife, and doing nothing to try and respond to Rhaenyra’s olive branch. 
 

It’s made clear Alicent is the bad guy and the people opposing her are righteous which not only destroys the previous five episodes but is done by characterizing them in ways not true to the book. 
 

 

[C.T. Phipps]

31 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

The only way fans have been able to defend this sort of one dimensional othering of the greens is by claiming Daemon Actually meant to kill Leanor and Rhaenyra actually wanted to torture Aemond.

I mean, seriously, this is nonsense. The Greens are scum. They've always been scum. They were scum in the World of Ice and Fire, they were scum in Fire and Blood, and they became scum in the show after Alicent had a short period where she wasn't scum. They've never not been scum and the attempt to say they are being vilified ignores this is like saying the Boltons or Freys were vilified by George R.R. Martin.

He made them.

He wrote them the way he wanted.

It's who they are.

Even in the original novellas, that I own and read, they were skeevy power hungry assholes.

Edited October 3, 2022 by C.T. Phipps

[Daeron the Daring]

5 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

did they have to have Daemon laugh out loud in Laena's funeral and totally abandon his kids? every time I think there's no room to hate this guy more ...

I'm not sure of that either. Like, is he going mad? Or is he just so much lacking the respect towards anything? They make him dirty and pathetic in a way they shouldn't. And they certainly shouldn't lack material to have his bad side show up.

8 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

why is Corlys such a Daemon fanboy? 

They're friends. Supposedly. It's not like he wasn't right about Daemon. Rhaenys was just looking for the escape room.

9 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

Aemond!  this kid has some cruelty(inherited from his mom) but he's really likeable despite it! at least he's smart (unlike his uncle who's just cruel!) . I mean , in one move he hit Luke , Jace and later Aegon! and with his "our blood will be pure" speech , he surely has Daemon vibes . but I definitely prefer him to Daemon for now. 

He's just Daemon, but fed up with the hate towards the Blacks by his mom. Just those two components. 

11 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

he can't leave his poor mother like that and one would expect with the rumors spreading about R&D having a hand in Laenor's death , Rhaenys wouldn't just give her life for Rhaenyra's cause

Considering how close Rhaenys and Corlys were to the Black cause in the book, I imagine neither of the two (Rhaenyra and Daemon) had a hand in Laenor's death, and they had serious backup to defend themselves from those kind of accusations. And even if they did it, they had to be very much aware of the consequences of a suspicious death of Laenor. And it was suspicious, altough it was as unsus as possible.

What I like is how the legitimacy of the Strong boys is adressed by Rhaenys and Corlys. I imagine the problem will be settled when their two actual grandchildren will be bethrothed to the heir to the Iron Throne and the heir to Driftmark.

18 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

by the way, how can Addam get Seasmoke, now that Laenor's alive? 

I expect that they either make up another dragon, and have Alyn Oakenfist try to tame Seasmoke, to be ultimately rejected by the dragon, because, you know, his rider is still alive. The issue with that is another dragon that has to die.

OR, they have Laenor die off-screen, and/or Seasmoke being claimed by Addam as proof that Laenor, altough lived on, had passed away at that point.

[C.T. Phipps]

9 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Well until then Rhaenyra and the blacks have been showed to be nothing but saints in the context of this world with all the sympathy given to them.

Yes, they've never been equally bad.

Rhaenyra does some awful things but the Blacks' most evil deeds have always been Daemon's doing and Daemon has done a shit ton of evil crap in the show.

Any moral ambiguity comes from him and Rhaenyra's degeneration during the dance.

The idea Rhaenyra was as bad as Daemon is an invention of fans.

Edited October 3, 2022 by C.T. Phipps