[Spoilers] Episode 107 Discussion

[butterweedstrover]

Just now, chrisdaw said:

lol what is this? There are no two meanings of question sharply.

Yeah, in this show there absolutely can be since it’s not real life. Are you saying the writers are so incompetent that they would have an unhinged Alicent shrug that off? 
 

I mean people have to reach in order to bring Rhaenyra to the same level as Alicent and the greens. 
 

1. Alicent is portrayed post time skip as a psycho determined for war, rejecting all of Rhaenyra’s olive branches, fueling division, working with a cold-blooded murder, and raising horrible children AND being insufferably jealous 

2. Rhaenyra post time skip is calm, diplomatic, the mother of three super cute kids, and the rightful heir who helps her gay husband live happily ever after in order to strengthen her claim against the evil Greens. 
 

Oh, and Aemond beat up a bunch of kids and threatened to kill them. The strong boys and Laena’s children were not the ones to create the violent situation. 
 

The show contradicts the books and itself in order to create the most morally simplistic one dimensional drama possible.

[C.T. Phipps]

1 minute ago, butterweedstrover said:

1. Alicent is portrayed post time skip as a psycho determined for war, rejecting all of Rhaenyra’s olive branches, fueling division, working with a cold-blooded murder, and raising horrible children AND being insufferably jealous 

2. Rhaenyra post time skip is calm, diplomatic, the mother of three super cute kids, and the rightful heir who helps her gay husband live happily ever after in order to strengthen her claim against the evil Greens.

3. Oh, and Aemond beat up a bunch of kids and threatened to kill them. The strong boys and Laena’s children were not the ones to create the violent situation.

The show contradicts the books and itself in order to create the most morally simplistic one dimensional drama possible.

Rhaenyra is shown more likable and moderate but Aemond is a fucking monstrous psychopath.

And Alicent being a crazy psycho who goes after a younger girl and her children is just book accuracy.

Again, the idea the Greens have EVER been anything but the worst never has been the case.

 

[chrisdaw]

2 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Yeah, in this show there absolutely can be since it’s not real life.

Text denial, in show form.

[C.T. Phipps]

1 minute ago, chrisdaw said:

Text denial, in show form.

The text denial about contradictory historical testimonies by multiple sources.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

6 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

Having Laenor fake his death doesn't work at many levels. One would have to be completely soulless to put your parents through this, right after their other child has just died. If they wanted to go that way they should have shown Laenor feeling uncomfortable at home, and distanced from Corlys and Rhaenys.

According to some reviewers who had seen the episode early, this twist was supposed to make people "very happy", but it has really been quite divisive from what I've seen so far.

[C.T. Phipps]

1 minute ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

According to some reviewers who had seen the episode early, this twist was supposed to make people "very happy", but it has really been quite divisive from what I've seen so far.

I like it because its questionable.

Laenor couldn't be what Rhaenyra needed him to be so he bugged out.

[butterweedstrover]

4 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Yes, they've never been equally bad.

Rhaenyra does some awful things but the Blacks' most evil deeds have always been Daemon's doing and Daemon has done a shit ton of evil crap in the show.

Any moral ambiguity comes from him and Rhaenyra's degeneration during the dance.

The idea Rhaenyra was as bad as Daemon is an invention of fans.

 

7 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I mean, seriously, this is nonsense. The Greens are scum. They've always been scum. They were scum in the World of Ice and Fire, they were scum in Fire and Blood, and they became scum in the show after Alicent had a short period where she wasn't scum. They've never not been scum and the attempt to say they are being vilified ignores this is like saying the Boltons or Freys were vilified by George R.R. Martin.

He made them.

He wrote them the way he wanted.

It's who they are.

Even in the original novellas, that I own and read, they were skeevy power hungry assholes.

Let's slow down a sec. 

Martin was the one claiming there are no good guys or bad guys in the story. That there would be no character TV made for audiences to root for, that this is going to be a morally complex tale. 

If what you are saying is that the Freys/Boltons are the core of Martin's moral philosophy on antagonists then you are unknowingly his harshest critique. 

F&B was intended to show two awful sides. And the show was there to add sympathy and nuance to the conflict. F&B is not a direct narrative, it is a series of rumors and second hand accounts that contradict themselves. Some people even thought Viserys was the one to have Harwin killed to protect Rhaenyra, but the show clarified it was Larys, Alicent's right hand man. 

And yet the show itself did add complexity in the first five episodes. It showed Rhaenyra's flaws and Alicent's goodness, it did not portray the greens as just "scum" or the blacks as just "heroes". 

And yet so far, since episode 5, the show has made a complete left turn ignoring all previous set up and character development for a less compelling story. Rather than try to find the depth in characters it excises those from Rhaenyra that might have made her look bad (like the sarcasm and flippancy of her show counterpart or the jealousy and vindictiveness of her book counterpart). 

Her demeanor is calm, peaceful. She looks for allies, she does not demand loyalty. She offers Alicent an olive branch and continues to play nice whilst Alicent just plots and ploys. Making Alicent go beyond the bias and one dimensional character she was in F&B and adding negative traits like Jealousy, physical violence, and actually working with Larys while knowing him to be cold-blooded murderer is not staying true to the books. 

It's taking a one dimensional character and making it more obvious just in case viewers aren't smart enough to figure out who they should root for. It is bad writing to ignore five episodes of build up, and it has nothing to do with staying true to Martin's vision.  

And if you think these last two episodes were more compelling television than the first five, then I'd have to disagree. 

[nara]

5 hours ago, Raksha 2014 said:

 

The kid actors are all quite good and convincing in very different roles; none of them are angels.  Jacerys is a great kid, though; he would have made a good king.  

Jace is my favorite in the book, followed by Luke. I was genuinely sad for them. Jace showed signs of young Jaehaerys’s wisdom in my opinion.

6 hours ago, Minsc said:

Similar to how the Blackwood/Bracken fight is easily the least balanced fight ever with the Blackwoods always being in the moral right and winning.

Do we ever find out in World of Ice and Fire the original cause of the feud? It would be interesting if Brackens were in the right originally and therefore justified their unwillingness to compromise. Or maybe 3 Eyed Bran zoomed back in time and accidentally caused the Feud.

4 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

 

I thought it was really cool when Aemond acknowledged that he heard it from his mother (if she had been exposed, she would have gotten into some serious trouble) but passed the hot potato to the very unprepared Aegon. And how Aegon deflected the sharp questioning by making it about appearance (book line quote!) instead of who he had heard it from. Viserys, nowhere near as bright as he should be, allowed him to shrug it off as teen gossip rather than accept the fact that Aegon is hoodwinking him.

I think Viserys knew Aegon was playing him but he was once again turning a blind eye to the facts.

4 hours ago, Cashless Society said:

 

I highly doubt that Daeron has been cut, the opening credits show that Alicent has 4 children, they wouldn't do that if they plan to cut him. I'm still with the assumption that Daeron is in Oldtown and that he will be The primary point-of-view character for the Reach portion of the war in the following seasons.

4 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

I don't know how on Earth you guys is able to make heads or tails of the opening credits.

I don't understand the symbols and it moves way too fast for me.

The credits are terrible. They tried to be too clever for their own good.

3 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

First of all, the pig prank was Aegon's idea. Jace and Luc defer to Aegon.

Second of all, was the pig prank that bad? I thought it was funny. Does it make you a bully if you play pranks and jokes on people?

I just thought that the boys were being boys and that he was being too sensitive.

I thought the prank was pretty cruel. Aemond was very sensitive about not yet having a dragon when his younger nephews did, so they made fun of him for it. Luke was too young perhaps to know better, but Aegon and even Jace were not.

1 hour ago, Tha_Prince_Ali said:

Rather than making the Strongs Black they should have just made Baela and Rhaena lightskin imo. Jace and Luke look about right to me for being 1/4th Black. But Baela and Rhaena look like they could be my sisters and I have two African parents. 

I agree. Laenor is pretty light skinned so adding Rhaenyra into the mix could make their kids pretty light skinned. 

[butterweedstrover]

17 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Text denial, in show form.

The point really isn't about "question sharply" and what it could mean. The point is to say Rhaenyra wanted an already damaged Aemond tortured. 

And people think this because they want to prove the show is depicting her as flawed, or just as bad as Alicent. We we all know its not and the Rhaenyra from episode 6 onward would not have Aemond tortured. She is too calm, diplomatic, and moral for such a thing. 

It's actually has no basis in the show, like none. 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

30 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I mean, seriously, this is nonsense. The Greens are scum. They've always been scum. They were scum in the World of Ice and Fire, they were scum in Fire and Blood, and they became scum in the show after Alicent had a short period where she wasn't scum. They've never not been scum and the attempt to say they are being vilified ignores this is like saying the Boltons or Freys were vilified by George R.R. Martin.

I know I keep repeating this, but George himself said that he hoped/expected a large portion of the audience to support the Greens, and was surprised when he found out that it wasn't the case. So I guess your claim is incorrect.

[StarksInTheNorth]

I’ve really liked how the show has done most things at this point, although I wish they were a little more ambiguous with Alicent’s ambition or fear for her kids. It would’ve made it more even before this episode broke the camel’s back. Like, have Larys feed the seeds Otto planted, with rumors that Baela has already been promised to be a queen, or describing the fight from the training yard as more violent than it was. But if Alicent avoids telling Aegon he must be king until this episode, and then finally everything happens and she says “you have to be king or else we’re all as dead as your brothers eye,” then it makes it more believable in her build towards fully hating Rhaenyra, rather than just considering her a hypocrite  

It would balance the books, which really don’t make Rhaenyra and co. look awful until Blood and Cheese happens. Rhaenyra’s crimes pre-Dance are:

- Being born a girl

- Potential inappropriate relations between Rhaenyra and Daemon

- An unclear affair or sexual involvement with Harwin or Criston

- Giving birth to bastards

- Luke taking Aemond’s eye in a fight when Luke is significantly younger

- Marrying Daemon

- Being jealous about Alicent being prettier than her because she put on a little weight

The entire basis of bad feelings really comes from Daemon and all the murders he maybe caused - Rhea, Harwin, Laenor, etc. Hes also uncommitted to ruling or helping on the Small Council, he hangs out with the commons and whores, and made the goldcloaks violent, but those are acceptable in other princes so none are fatal flaws, unlike the seduction and murder.

Meanwhile during all of this, Otto and Alicent are actively conspiring to make Aegon king in front of the world, which Rhaenyra pretty much just puts up with?

[Ran]

4 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

George himself said that he hoped/expected a large portion of the audience to support the Greens

Where? Can't say I recall this.

[StarksInTheNorth]

Just now, Ran said:

Where? Can't say I recall this.

I just checked the so spake Martin search engine and couldn’t find anything either. I think I remember an interview when GRRM said he was surprised people hated them as viscerally as they do. But he’s also said Daemon is his favorite Targaryen which makes it hard to think he’s not at least a little biased for team Black (even though the ultimate thesis seems to be everyone sucks when the thrones involved and the innocents and children suffer)

[Rockroi]

8 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

Nobody cares for the smallfolk, not even the audience. So sad.

Btw, it's Aemond, not Aemon. Do not besmirch the name of the wisest of maesters and the greatest of knights with this prick.

Yeah, upon thinking on this, I realized my mistake.  

And I'm terrible with spelling.  However, Aemond is amazing- fantastic character and doing right by his family.  He doesn't cry and complain when somebody, literally, takes what's theirs.  He's a complete badass- even at like 9.  

[The Bard of Banefort]

Something I hadn’t considered until I saw it brought up somewhere else is that Rhaenyra just gave birth. Which means her sexy time with Daemon would have realistically been a bit more. . . uncomfortable.

[C.T. Phipps]

11 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I know I keep repeating this, but George himself said that he hoped/expected a large portion of the audience to support the Greens, and was surprised when he found out that it wasn't the case. So I guess your claim is incorrect.

George is surprising in some of his conclusions but I don't think he's ever directly said this.

But the worst elements of the Blacks are things that will happen later.

We'll see how people feel about Rhaenyra and Daemon after Blood and Cheese and the bastard persecution.

Edited October 3, 2022 by C.T. Phipps

[IFR]

10 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

The point really isn't about "question sharply" and what it could mean. The point is to say Rhaenyra wanted an already damaged Aemond tortured. 

And people think this because they want to prove the show is depicting her as flawed, or just as bad as Alicent. We we all know its not and the Rhaenyra from episode 6 onward would not have Aemond tortured. She is too calm, diplomatic, and moral for such a thing. 

It's actually has no basis in the show, like none. 

I can't say I agree with your take. Rhaenyra and Daemon had an innocent person murdered just so they could marry. It wasn't the person the audience are familiar with, but that hardly matters.

Rhaenyra has been more diplomatic in her later years because, due to her very foolish and short-sighted decision to have bastard children, she's always at risk of being called out for her infidelity, with potentially terrible consequences to follow.

Daemon has throughout the show been one of the more villainous characters. He hasn't lately done something extremely horrible like murder a spouse, but I certainly don't think of him as a moral character.

Alicent has, through bitter years of isolation and learned mistrust, gone from a sweet and innocent character to someone much darker. But I think this has been a very good and clear evolution. Her motivations are understandable (even if they aren't agreeable).

Maybe Alicent's actions recently are making her 'less good' than Rhaenyra, but I don't think any side is remotely portrayed as good. I really like watching these characters, but I find them all morally despicable.

Anyway, the season's not over yet. There's plenty of time for Daemon and Rhaenyra to do horrible things. And of course the start of season two will be very interesting with how Blood and Cheese is handled.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

16 minutes ago, Ran said:

Where? Can't say I recall this.

The interview he did with History of Westeros before the HoTD premiere. According to Aziz, GRRM said that things like Faegon's real identity and the Blacks/Greens conflict were supposed to cause much disagreement and debate among readers, and was surprised when he was told that the fandom was almost unanimous in supporting the Blacks and believing that FAegon was fake. 

I didnt listen to the whole interview, since it was quite long, but Aziz mentioned this part specifically in a livestream with In Deep Geek that I was part of. Maybe George told him some things off the record.

Edited October 3, 2022 by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy

[Minsc]

47 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Oh, and Aemond beat up a bunch of kids and threatened to kill them. The strong boys and Laena’s children were not the ones to create the violent situation. 

Where those the bunch of kids that ganged up to fight him while outnumbering Aemond by 4v1?  The Strong boys and Laena's children were also the ones that took a swing at Aemond before Aemond swung on them.  They were the ones that created the violent situation.  Aemond being a little smug doesn't justify their behavior anymore than Aemond would have been justified for punching Jace in the face after the pig stunt.

27 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Rhaenyra from episode 6 onward would not have Aemond tortured. She is too calm, diplomatic, and moral for such a thing. 

Why is that?  How is she shown as any of those things?  Does she do anything to try to do consol either Aemond or Alicent in that scene despite the fact that her son just took out one of Aemond's eyes.  Rather she is very much trying shift the focus and anger over onto the maimed children to protect her lie.

[Sand11751]

Another great, if not excellent, episode. This insistence on Daemon as a complete sociopath is getting a little tiresome. But at least there weren't any King's Landing rat metaphors this time. The alliance of Daemon and Rhaenyra, cause that's what their relationship is based on, is surprisingly as dull as Jon and Danaerys' relationship. I remember laughing at people who freaked out about them. "But he's her nephew! Oh, the incestuous horror." Now apparently there's people looking up getting it on with your uncle on Pornhub. Alicent truly has gone too far - if that had been Robert Baratheon, she would have been wearing his hand-print on her cheek like a badge of honor. Oh, wait a minute, Viserys is missing a hand. Wish he would just die already. Weakest. King. Ever. Also, never expected to be proud of Aemond and his determination to claim Vhagar; beautiful scene, although he's almost on par with his brother. Way to go, Alicent and Viserys; you win the worst parents award. Wonder if we'll hear a peep out of her about plans for Aegon and  Helaena's union. I seem to recall her having something to say about Targaryen ways. 

Edited October 3, 2022 by Sand11751