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[Spoilers] Episode 107 Discussion


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1 minute ago, Rockroi said:

I see Alicent as similar to Stannis -- somebody who followed the rules and does what needs to be done and watches while others do whatever they want and get ahead.  

I think this is an insightful comparison.  She is very much like Stannis - for better AND worse.

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@butterweedstrover

Rhaenyra is still pretty entitled. It's just a quiet entitlement.

The very fact that she legit thought that she could have children out of wedlock by a man who looks nothing like her husband, that no one would notice and that her inheritance would be secured and protected is extremely entitled. Granted, she was not wrong to think that way but...good grief, was she gambling with her life.

 

Rhaenys is clearly irritated by Rhaenyra's decision. Corlys -- more or less -- endorses Rhaenyra's logic given that he feels almost the exact same way. But Rhaenys, for some reason, cannot. Rhaenys actively avoided speaking to Rhaenyra or any of her nominal grandchildren. Meanwhile, Corlys was very sharp and unkind towards Laenor and Qarl. Which is interesting; Rhaenys is mad at Rhaenyra while Corlys clearly blames Laenor. Corlys is 100% right to place the blame on Laenor but Rhaenys is 100% right as well: this is a very dangerous farce fueled by her husband's insatiable desire for legacy and, if I were her, I'd be mad about it too.

As a matter of fact, it is a wonder how they will bind Rhaenys and Corlys to the Blacks. In the books, I got the impression that Rhaenys and Corlys (and maybe even Viserys) were both on board with what appears to be a surrogacy arrangement between Harwin, Rhaenyra and Laenor. In the show, it's clearly something that Rhaenyra decides first and that Laenor co-signs later...only for the parents to be left completely out of the loop.

Why will Rhaenys support Rhaenyra?

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12 minutes ago, Rockroi said:

Because there are two sides to this and some people want her to succeed just as some people want Alicent to.  I see Alicent as similar to Stannis -- somebody who followed the rules and does what needs to be done and watches while others do whatever they want and get ahead.  

Yep, minus the dry humor. :D

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3 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

It is framed as Daemon killing a nameless NPC to help two gay lovers live happily ever after.

I understand. Killing and unnamed character is not as impactful as killing a genuinely decent and honorable guy, as Laenor was portrayed until then.

However, it would be remiss of me to ignore the fact that Daemon DID sacrifice an innocent life, for a goal that suited him, the person he loves (Rhaenyra) and someone else (Laenor for whom he seems to have a respect). In fact it adds to killing Rhea for his own purpose and he doesn't look redeemable to me.

The fact he had reservations and points out that in order for him and his niece to be married Laenor needs to die is a good grey area that I approve. Also providing help for Rhaenyra who shrewdly realizes that Laenor would never be capable of fighting for her and her kids as Damon would.

So yes, he has some reason behind killing a nameless character and seems to be motivated by some good feeling towards others than himself but you called him a "saint", and I don't see it. Are you a saint in your view if you start killing people you don't know anything about because they serve a purpose you need to attain and provide happiness to some couple, gay or otherwise?

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9 minutes ago, DMC said:

Yeah I think the show has a lot of heavy lifting to do to figure that out.  In the books it seems natural, but the way the show has depicted this it should be quite a struggle.

On top of that with having Daemon kill his wife and have the Royce family clearly aware it is him I wonder how they are going to explain why the Royce house  would be pro-Black in the conflict 

Edited by Stannis is the man....nis
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2 minutes ago, Stannis is the man....nis said:

On top of that with having Daemon kill his wife and have the Royce family clearly aware it is him I wonder how they are going to explain why the Royce house  would be pro-Black in the conflict 

Yeah this is a fair question to ask but..I suspect it will be glossed over.  Rhaenys, OTOH, is a somewhat important character in the show.  And clearly at odds with her husband about their..aims, as detailed in this episode.  The show itself has made this an issue -- which might be a good thing!  Maybe they have some resolution in mind.  But if not...

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9 minutes ago, Rockroi said:

The show has done a pretty good job of detailing Alicent's complaints: she follows the rules and it gets her nowhere; her children follow the rules, it gets them nowhere.  She does her duty to her husband, to her family and to the realm and goes nowhere.  Rhaenyra gets everything for doing so, so little.  

Alicent makes this plain to Larys Strong- that while her Father would not be unbiased at least somebody would be biased towards her.  The subtext is unmistakable - everyone else is biased towards Rhaenyra.  

The show also illustrates her very, very well founded concern that so long as Aegon exists, he is an open and obvious threat to Rhaenyra- and not just her claim.  Even after she would be presumably coronated, Aegon's mere existence would draw those hoping to use him for advantage and, possibly, install him as King.  And Rhaenyra knows this and if she does she may, one day, want to remove such an open and obvious threat.  Her son, as she sees it, is in danger. 

Now she is presented with something that literally gets people killed (though I grant you the show has not don ea great job of detailing this) namely that laying hands on a royal gets you killed.  Aemond was attacked by four kids (and he was attacked first- the younger Velarion girls goes at him first) at or close to his age; he defended himself and was ultimately rewarded by losing an eye.  Now, subtext- the universe these people live in, eye wounds can be fatal; infection is real and these people are a multiverse away from antibiotics (though bread mold exists and the masters use it).  The son will also have difficulty using a sword or anything else.  People die for this or at least are punished.

Viserys- who I love - instead ignores the attack in the real attempt to avoid an actual civil war; Viserys bemoans the people surrounding him saying they need to be a family.  Its a wish shared by literally nobody else in that room.  

And he refuses to punish Rhaenyra's children.  

Just like Viserys refused to punish Rhaenyra for having the least subtle bastards ever.  

Her child is wounded; wounded by Rhaenyra's bastards; wounded by Rhaenyra's unpunished bastards who are teetering the realm on civil war.  

Alicent who follows the rules; Rhaenray who does not.  Aicent whose son is maimed and Rhaenyra's whose sons are not. 

Alicent who has true born sons of the crown and Rhaenyra who does not. 

Alicent sees this as an injustice which, mince no words, it certainly is.  And she takes up the blade not as a mad-woman but as somebody who sees that doing anything else would be submitting her children to an ongoing injustice. And its no accident that she takes Viserys' blade-metaphorically King his ability to do justice from his very hand.  

How is Viserys supposed to give Alicent justice?

Lucerys - baseborn or not - is his grandchild. How will the cutting or maiming of Lucerys fix anything? It literally only creates more chaos.

Besides, all of the kids are injured and covered in their own blood. What more punishment do they need? And you can't punish Luc without punishing the other kids who are, arguably, more guilty than Luc is. Would Rhaenys and Corlys consent to such punishment? Judging by the way Rhaenys was holding her granddaughters, even moving to do anything to those girls would be met with absolute defiance and aggression.

Besides, Alicent is partially responsible for this chaos. She has absolutely no business telling her children that their nephews are bastards and that the Iron Throne is rightfully theirs. That was short-sighted of her because there was no way that her kids were going to not make a mile out of that inch. She is also a hypocrite for making such a big deal about a relationship between Daemon/Rhaenyra and Jace/Helaena when she has expressed a determination to marry Aegon to Helaena.

 

The fact that Rhaenyra would harm or kill her half-siblings (particularly Aegon) is something that the Greens have made up. Yes, Maegor did it but that's Maegor. Maegor had a lot of other issues going on that led to him killing and imprisoning his child rivals...chief among them being Maegor's status is a usurper. But Rhaenyra is not a usurper...she would have no need to do so. Alienating Aegon from Rhaenyra by filling his head with lies and presuppositions is the very thing that endangers him.

 

 

Civil war is only ever an issue because the Greens make it an issue. There would no civil war if Otto and Alicent just left well enough alone.

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12 hours ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

It was going great until the terrible, terrible ending. What a bunch of cowards.  He's going to let his family and everyone that loves him think he's dead, and also abandon his dragon too? Just pathetic.

The only problem I had with the ending is Laenor just peacing out on his dragon. He didnt have any connection to his kids (their words) and certainly none for his wife. His parents loved him despite his sexual preference which in HoD times is very progressive. This most likely was done to white wash the blacks a bit but there can be no white washing when the dance truly starts. And I believe Mysaria will take Nettles place and be a dragon rider.

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2 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

George is surprising in some of his conclusions but I don't think he's ever directly said this.

But the worst elements of the Blacks are things that will happen later.

We'll see how people feel about Rhaenyra and Daemon after Blood and Cheese and the bastard persecution.

It could be that whatever redeeming qualities GRRM had in mind for the Greens just didn't come across on page, also known as doing a Darkstar. Who knows.

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22 minutes ago, DMC said:

Yeah I think the show has a lot of heavy lifting to do to figure that out.  In the books it seems natural, but the way the show has depicted this it should be quite a struggle.

I have a bad feeling that they'll just do that with the twins and the Strongs engagement . but I don't think that's sufficient especially with Laenor's "death" . letting Rhaenys and Corlys know their son's alive and on board with Rhaenyra getting herself a second husband is NECESSARY in my opinion.

Book_Rhaenys seemed to have ambition of her own and one could presume that if she hadn't gotten the throne for her own when she fiercely tried to in 92 and 101 , she'll at least fight for Rhaenyra's to avoid another "Queen Who Never was" and ensure her future descendants through Baela on the throne. it also appeared that both she and Corlys had accepted Rhaenyra's bastards . unfortunately , Rhaenyra seems to be the only ambitious woman in the show . Laena and Rhaenys have both lost their fiery characters in the show. 

13 minutes ago, Stannis is the man....nis said:

On top of that with having Daemon kill his wife and have the Royce family clearly aware it is him I wonder how they are going to explain why the Royce house  would be pro-Black in the conflict 

it would be smart to have Royces declare for Greens despite lady Jeyne declaring for Blacks . it'll be sloppy not to mention poor Rhea Royce's murder later on . when Rhaenyra is fleeing to Dragonstone , it'll be the perfect opportunity to say the delay Arryn forces have is because of being preoccupied with fighting the Royces instead of not finding ships. ... I think this could make sense . as far as I recall , later , Jeyne's cousin who challenged her heir's succession had the support of Runestone. 

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I disagree that the Green’s argument that Aegon and Aemond lives being in danger from Rhaenyra is “made up”. The controversy of Rhaenyra‘s reign in being the first woman would mean her rule would be on shaky grounds as any remotely controversial decision she made could see her be supplanted by them so they’re existence would be a threat to her plus it doesn’t have to be her it could be Daemon or a Littlefinger/Varys type  on her small council taking it upon themselves to get rid of this threat to her

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26 minutes ago, DMC said:

I think this is an insightful comparison.  She is very much like Stannis - for better AND worse.

This is an improvement over the book. Because in the book, she is more like Cersei.

1 minute ago, Chad Vader said:

The only problem I had with the ending is Laenor just peacing out on his dragon. He didnt have any connection to his kids (their words) and certainly none for his wife. His parents loved him despite his sexual preference which in HoD times is very progressive. This most likely was done to white wash the blacks a bit but there can be no white washing when the dance truly starts. And I believe Mysaria will take Nettles place and be a dragon rider.

I don't know about all of that.

Corlys was always short and rough with him. And given the way that they were speaking, I can tell that Corlys is very unhappy with the way Laenor turned out.

And honestly...this whole situation is largely Laenor's fault. He should've everything within his power to impregnate her; there was no excuse for him not to do so. Like there is no reason why Laenor was not around for this whole thing and the fact that Alicent pointed it out makes it worse.

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3 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

The only way fans have been able to defend this sort of one dimensional othering of the greens is by claiming Daemon Actually meant to kill Leanor and Rhaenyra actually wanted to torture Aemond.

The thing about Alicent is that I do not see it pure evil. I rather see her as a tragic character that was used and abused and now does the same to her own kids. She did absolutely everything that was asked of her, she satisfied her father's wishes, satisfied Viserys' desires, she stayed in her mold, she was promised the IT for her first male child because that was the precedent set and she sees another who gets everything by doing none of the prescribed female molding things... fuck that! Totally human to feel that kind of rage though most of us humans contain it and we put breaks and realize life ain't fair and we do not plot to kill, maim and hurt others but strive to change and maybe do better. But she seems to be too far gone. And when she does show remorse and voices it, what does that asshole Otto do?!?!? eggs her on. Is proud of her. Fuck him too.

Anyway, I read all your comments. In the polls threads as well as here. I think the way you view the show and conflict is much different than how I view it and I cannot really address it.

The reality is that I don't see the "good" and "bad" sides as you do. I simply don't see general greater good about any of the characters or their claims. I understand you think the show portrays them like that but to me it simply looks like that is a portion of the audience's interpretation. A smaller one at that.

The way I read the fandom (here, reddit, WOTW etc) as well as the reviews, a much much larger part see it as a dark world with very grim and generally bad characters. The majority of complaints are that there is no one to root for. That means there are no real "good guys".

That being said, I do root for Cregan to come and just be himself and put an end to all the double cross, plotting etc. But that's just me. And @Mark Antonyapparently! Lol.

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1 minute ago, BlackLightning said:

 

I don't know about all of that.

Corlys was always short and rough with him. And given the way that they were speaking, I can tell that Corlys is very unhappy with the way Laenor turned out.

And honestly...this whole situation is largely Laenor's fault. He should've everything within his power to impregnate her; there was no excuse for him not to do so. Like there is no reason why Laenor was not around for this whole thing and the fact that Alicent pointed it out makes it worse.

Well I daresay Corlys loves his son even while not being happy with how he turned out. You see this at the fake death.

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3 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Yeah, in this show there absolutely can be since it’s not real life. Are you saying the writers are so incompetent that they would have an unhinged Alicent shrug that off? 
 

I mean people have to reach in order to bring Rhaenyra to the same level as Alicent and the greens. 
 

1. Alicent is portrayed post time skip as a psycho determined for war, rejecting all of Rhaenyra’s olive branches, fueling division, working with a cold-blooded murder, and raising horrible children AND being insufferably jealous 

2. Rhaenyra post time skip is calm, diplomatic, the mother of three super cute kids, and the rightful heir who helps her gay husband live happily ever after in order to strengthen her claim against the evil Greens. 
 

Oh, and Aemond beat up a bunch of kids and threatened to kill them. The strong boys and Laena’s children were not the ones to create the violent situation. 
 

The show contradicts the books and itself in order to create the most morally simplistic one dimensional drama possible.

Interesting, I didn't see it that way.  Personally, I reached a point where it's clear that the show has given us no one to root for.  Which, personally I applaud.  Daemon's atrocities and Rhaenerya's selfishness seem to counter balance, Alicent's madness, and Otto's scheming.  The only one that comes across as semi sympathetic is poor King Viserys, who only wants everyone to get along.  Which is an extension of his rule, an attempt to avoid conflict wherever possible.  Unfortunately, this ultimately comes across as a weakness that sets the state for the upcoming war.

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27 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

Book_Rhaenys seemed to have ambition of her own and one could presume that if she hadn't gotten the throne for her own when she fiercely tried to in 92 and 101 , she'll at least fight for Rhaenyra's to avoid another "Queen Who Never was" and ensure her future descendants through Baela on the throne. it also appeared that both she and Corlys had accepted Rhaenyra's bastards . unfortunately , Rhaenyra seems to be the only ambitious woman in the show . Laena and Rhaenys have both lost their fiery characters in the show. 

I don't think it's about ambition for Rhaenys - in the books or the show.  The reason I think they've kind of back themselves into a corner is because all she cares about is the survival of her children.  And she clearly has no illusions about Daemon nor Rhaenyra's scruples.  So, Rhaenys should instantly suspect the latter two in the death of her one remaining child.  Again, how that's worked out, we'll see...

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