[Spoilers] Episode 107 Discussion

[butterweedstrover]

1 hour ago, DMC said:

It's not a perfect comparison, no, but it's an illustrative one.  Rhaenyra going to Daemon and their conversation therein is totally depicted as evil machinations because, well, it is.  You acting like the show does not emphasize that with the music and Daemon acting all shady (I swear to god any time he puts on a hood you need to run!) is your own biased interpretation, not what we all saw.  

That 'music' was meant to play into the assumption Daemon was paying him to kill Leanor. It was meant to trick audiences, not explore the corrupt nature of his relationship with Rhaenyra. 

But go on about what everyone else sees as obvious. 

[DMC]

Just now, butterweedstrover said:

That 'music' was meant to play into the assumption Daemon was paying him to kill Leanor. It was meant to trick audiences, not explore the corrupt nature of his relationship with Rhaenyra. 

But go on about what everyone else sees as obvious. 

LOL.  Go on about how music is supposed to trick audiences.

[Red_star99]

1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

Rhaenyra is still pretty entitled. It's just a quiet entitlement.

The very fact that she legit thought that she could have children out of wedlock by a man who looks nothing like her husband, that no one would notice and that her inheritance would be secured and protected is extremely entitled. Granted, she was not wrong to think that way but...good grief, was she gambling with her life.

 

yeah,rhaenyra could have easily annuled her marrige because  her husband is steril(though is not like two years without children  is unatural even in modren time )  and married harwin then  married her children to the velaryon twins instead she decided to gamble and have children

[BlackLightning]

11 minutes ago, DMC said:

LOL.  Go on about how music is supposed to trick audiences.

Not so fast.

I'm with @butterweedstrover on this. Musical themes do serve as narrative cues. Case in point: whenever you hear the Imperial March, you know that Darth Vader is getting involved and some s*** is about to pop off.

 

In any case, the relationship between Daemon and Rhaenyra is not corrupt in my eyes. Clearly, Rhaenyra needs a lot of help and Daemon can provide it. Besides, Rhaenyra loves him and he prefers her. So, it is not a pure love match...it's a political and marriage alliance as well

[butterweedstrover]

1 hour ago, Rockroi said:

The show has done a pretty good job of detailing Alicent's complaints: she follows the rules and it gets her nowhere; her children follow the rules, it gets them nowhere.  She does her duty to her husband, to her family and to the realm and goes nowhere.  Rhaenyra gets everything for doing so, so little.  

Alicent makes this plain to Larys Strong- that while her Father would not be unbiased at least somebody would be biased towards her.  The subtext is unmistakable - everyone else is biased towards Rhaenyra.   

This goes back to the tragic backstoryTM trope where a villain is given reasons for being villainous.  

It has the same fidelity as saying the Mountain is evil because he was abused as a child, it doesn't make his cause anymore sympathetic. 

And it was not what was displayed in the earlier episodes. Alicent did not have a desire for the throne, she was not ambitious. 

1 hour ago, Rockroi said:

The show also illustrates her very, very well founded concern that so long as Aegon exists, he is an open and obvious threat to Rhaenyra- and not just her claim.  Even after she would be presumably coronated, Aegon's mere existence would draw those hoping to use him for advantage and, possibly, install him as King.  And Rhaenyra knows this and if she does she may, one day, want to remove such an open and obvious threat.  Her son, as she sees it, is in danger.  

But Alicent isn't fighting for her children's lives. You said yourself she is jealous of Rhaenyra and wants to bring her down a notch. If she cared about her children she would have considered the marriage proposal. All Alicent 2.0 wants is war. And no matter how wronged she feels her side is entirely unsympathetic which is why everyone hates her. 

1 hour ago, Rockroi said:

 

And Daemon? Daemon killed his first wife... because.  His second wife dies... he barely speaks to their children after (the show specifically cut a scene out where he hugs them, most likely because they wanted to show the distance between them).  Daemon is kind of a dick.  And the show is not shy about showing that.  I do not think the show is sympathetic to him just as I do not think its anti-Alicent. 

Not since episode 5 when all the characters turned into different people. Now Criston Cole and Larys are far worst than Daemon. 

1 hour ago, Rockroi said:

 

Rhaenyra has been monumentally selfish for not having legitimate children and not being as obvious in her inability to conceive with her Husband.  The show could do a better job of exemplifying that, but its still there.  

The show went out of its way to tell us that they tried and Laenor could not finish. Anything else is you adding headcanon to create something that is not there. 

1 hour ago, Rockroi said:

Because there are two sides to this and some people want her to succeed just as some people want Alicent to.  I see Alicent as similar to Stannis -- somebody who followed the rules and does what needs to be done and watches while others do whatever they want and get ahead.   

Funny, people were comparing Rhaenyra to Stannis in the earlier episodes because Rhaenyra expected her claim to gain her allies and not her diplomacy. 

Alicent doesn't follow the rules. She teams up with a maniac who killed his own family to steal the throne. Stannis at least believed his claim was rightful, Alicent does not even pretend.

1 hour ago, Rockroi said:

I think that people tend to see what they want to see- I am guilty of that to.  So I get some of the ideas coming out.  However, I think the show has done a much better job of balancing this out and I think it makes the show far more enjoyable.  

They could have done a lot, they could had Rhaenyra not be so generous and not offer the marriage alliance. They could have had her shown violent tendencies or actually demanded a child be tortured to put the fear for her children into the mind of Alicent. 

But they didn't and every excuse you dredged up is from your imagination, not the show itself. 

[C.T. Phipps]

2 hours ago, Ingelheim said:

And I'm not getting what they are trying to do with Cole these last three episodes. He's killed a noble in public, then insulted both the Queen and the City's Watch Commander last episode, and finally he's tried to...attack? The Princess Rhaenyra by the Queen's Consort orders. It's not very logical or rational at all for him to be doing this.

I mean, it's literally Cole's historical role in Westeros to become Kingmaker and betray his monarch (Rhaenyra) to put up his own puppet.

 

[butterweedstrover]

14 minutes ago, DMC said:

LOL.  Go on about how music is supposed to trick audiences.

No but seriously DMC, when Daemon said he wanted a quick death was not the audience suppose to think of Leanor. 

And were they not subverted when that didn't happen? 

Everything that happened beforehand was meant to playing into the idea that they were going to kill Leanor. But go back to comparing the murder of the guard to Theon burning two children. 

[DMC]

2 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Musical themes do serve as narrative cues. Case in point: whenever you hear the Imperial March, you know that Darth Vader is getting involved and some s*** is about to pop off.

 

That was exactly my point.

[BlackLightning]

2 minutes ago, Red_star99 said:

yeah,rhaenyra could have easily annuled her marrige because  her husband is steril(though is not like two years without children  is unatural even in modren time )  and married harwin then  married her children to the velaryon twins instead she decided to gamble and have children

Rhaenyra could not do that.

Only the ruling monarch can annul a marriage (or should I say, co-opt a divorce) and he was not budging on that. Plus, annulling a marriage is an extreme longshot even in modern times, much moreso then. Rhaenyra and Laenor had tried to have sex several times before...meaning that the marriage had already been consummated. You can't really annul a marriage that has been consummated.

[BlackLightning]

2 minutes ago, DMC said:

That was exactly my point.

Wait so what exactly was the point that @butterweedstrover was trying to make. I'm really confused. Did I read it wrong or was @butterweedstrover not making any sense?

[DMC]

1 minute ago, butterweedstrover said:

Everything that happened beforehand was meant to playing into the idea that they were going to kill Leanor. But go back to comparing the murder of the guard to Theon burning two children. 

....Explain to me how that is not like "subverting" the audiences expectations when it comes to Theon burning the two children.  It's quicker, granted, and it only involves one man instead of two children -- that's why I said it wasn't a perfect comparison.  But otherwise, they still killed a dude, and that's still evil.  Are you saying they didn't?

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

The very fact that she legit thought that she could have children out of wedlock by a man who looks nothing like her husband, that no one would notice and that her inheritance would be secured and protected is extremely entitled.

I don't think she cared if people noticed or not. As Daemon said, "You're the dragon, your word is truth and law".  I think she very much agrees with that.

Edited October 3, 2022 by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy

[C.T. Phipps]

55 minutes ago, Stannis is the man....nis said:

I disagree that the Green’s argument that Aegon and Aemond lives being in danger from Rhaenyra is “made up”. The controversy of Rhaenyra‘s reign in being the first woman would mean her rule would be on shaky grounds as any remotely controversial decision she made could see her be supplanted by them so they’re existence would be a threat to her plus it doesn’t have to be her it could be Daemon or a Littlefinger/Varys type  on her small council taking it upon themselves to get rid of this threat to her

I mean it absolutely DOES draw a bunch of nasty vicious pieces of shit and enemies of the crown to prop up Aegon II as a puppet king and forment civil war. The joke is that Alicent is their leader and it DOES get Aegon II and her other children killed. Specifically because she DOES make them a flashpoint for it.

It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

The thing is that there WAS an alternative and that was to be Rhaenyra's supporters and they'd have eventually married themselves back in even if it wasn't that generation.

[DMC]

3 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Wait so what exactly was the point that @butterweedstrover was trying to make. I'm really confused. Did I read it wrong or was @butterweedstrover not making any sense?

All I can tell you is what I meant.  Which is that the score indicated Rhaenyra and Daemon were gonna do some evil shit and then they did do some evil shit.

[C.T. Phipps]

Well, HOTD has achieved its ends.

We finally have people arguing with the Greens and Blacks.

Except, its people arguing with the SHOW RUNNERS over it.

[The Grey Wolf Strikes Back]

@BlackLightning

The High Septon grants annulments and if they're anything like the RL medieval Catholic Church, impotence or sterility would be valid grounds.

[C.T. Phipps]

Just now, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

@BlackLightning

The High Septon grants annulments and if they're anything like the RL medieval Catholic Church, impotence or sterility would be valid grounds.

A reminder that in RL that granting royal annulments like Eleanor of Aquitane got was something that royally screwed up the land too.

The thing is that no one WANTED the annulment.

The only people upset about Rhaenyra's bastardry are the people that would hate her true born children as well. Remember, Alicent threatens to chop Aegon III up.

[Tijgy]

3 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I don't think she cared if people noticed or not. As Daemon said, "You're the dragon, your word is truth and law".  I think she very much agrees with that.

She keeps saying that telling the truth ('insulting her virtue') is treason. She did it when she lied to Alicent in the godswood when she swore on her mother's memory Daemon didn't touch her. And after she claimed Aemond was rightfully punished by losing his eye because he called her sons bastards, she thanks her father when he threatens to cut the tongue of everyone who tells the truth about her sons' parentage.  

[butterweedstrover]

3 minutes ago, DMC said:

....Explain to me how that is not like "subverting" the audiences expectations when it comes to Theon burning the two children.  It's quicker, granted, and it only involves one man instead of two children -- that's why I said it wasn't a perfect comparison.  But otherwise, they still killed a dude, and that's still evil.  Are you saying they didn't?

Theon burning two children to forcibly submit an unwilling population was played up as evil.

Daemon was made to be like this because he was supposedly paying this guy to kill his own lover (and someone Daemon supposedly treats as a friend and technically his brother in law). 

When it's all a fake out that tone is gone. Corlys and Rhaenys aren't crying over that guard, they will not notice when he is gone. It's the reason they did it, to give Leanor a happy ending and save Rhaenyra's throne which makes them heroes. 

Heroes with an edge being ready to kill for each other. Compare that to Larys who just kills his whole family and Rhaenyra's lover because Alicent said mean things about them. 

[EggBlue]

4 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I don't think she cared if people noticed or not. As Daemon said, "You're the dragon, your word is truth and law".  I think she very much agrees with that.

doesn't she? .. she is desperately trying to shut down any "vile rumors" about their bastardy . one would imagine she hoped for a silver hair baby every time! but I can't say why she didn't try to find a silver haired guy after Jace was born , likely with rumors about his hair . my book explanation for it has always been that Rhaenyra was pretty much a monogamist romantic who loved Harwin .  this Rhaenyra trusted Harwin and liked to be desired... and that's all. odd ! I don't think there's a shortage of valyrian looking guys that can be trusted and have a thing for the princess in Kingslanding and Dragonstone!