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[Spoilers] Episode 107 Discussion


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2 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Theon burning two children to forcibly submit an unwilling population was played up as evil.

Daemon was made to be like this because he was supposedly paying this guy to kill his own lover (and someone Daemon supposedly treats as a friend and technically his brother in law). 

When it's all a fake out that tone is gone. Corlys and Rhaenys aren't crying over that guard, they will not notice when he is gone. It's the reason they did it, to give Leanor a happy ending and save Rhaenyra's throne which makes them heroes. 

So..Theon is evil for killing two random kids while Daemon and Rhaenyra are "heroes" for killing one random man.  That's not how I view it, and it's not how it was depicted, but you do you!

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1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

Civil war is only ever an issue because the Greens make it an issue. There would no civil war if Otto and Alicent just left well enough alone.

Thank you! There's no Dance without the Greens' determination to make it happen. First, Otto with his assumptions (even talking about a dragon on THEIR side), which he passed on to his daughter, and she in turn indoctrinated her children. Rhaenyra gave them a way out with a Jacaerys - Helaena union. They decided not to take it. The Dance is even more of a tragedy, because it could have been avoided. 

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3 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

doesn't she? .. she is desperately trying to shut down any "vile rumors" about their bastardy . one would imagine she hoped for a silver hair baby every time! but I can't say why she didn't try to find a silver haired guy after Jace was born , likely with rumors about his hair . my book explanation for it has always been that Rhaenyra was pretty much a monogamist romantic who loved Harwin .  this Rhaenyra trusted Harwin and liked to be desired... and that's all. odd ! I don't think there's a shortage of valyrian looking guys that can be trusted and have a thing for the princess in Kingslanding and Dragonstone! 

I dunno, Harwin was:

1. A man willing to be her lover

2. Willing to be discreet about it

3. Willing to be subservient and never acknowledge his children'

4. Close enough at hand

5. Carry this strange relationship forward for decades.

The fact it's not a raw passionate romance doesn't mean it wasn't love.

Edited by C.T. Phipps
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2 minutes ago, DMC said:

So..Theon is evil for killing two random kids while Daemon and Rhaenyra are "heroes" for killing one random man.  That's not how I view it, and it's not how it was depicted, but you do you!

Focus on the why. 

Theon killed two children to force Wintefell into submission. 

Daemon, Qarl, Rhaenyra, and Laenor had a random guard killed so two lovers can live happily ever after and Rhaenyra can secure her throne (which is being threatened by a mother-in-law who attacked her with a knife and spent the past 10 years trying to destroy her). 

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2 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

 

No one watching that cares that a bunch of kids were standing up to a bully. In this world punches are innocent compared to rape and murder. This is not a Disney show.

Just because she does comfort the guy who tried to kill her kid doesn’t mean she wants them tortured. 
 

I mean come on, why are we debating this. If Rhaenyra asked for Aemond to be tortured why didn’t Alicent even respond to that? This isn’t a serious position and is only being argued to try and find some example where Rhaenyra is put in a bad light.

Jace and his friends were the bullies for then Aemond. Jace and his brother's bullies Aemond in the previous episode. They also ganged up on one child while outnumbering him. They were the ones to pull an actual weapon. 

You mean the maimed kid that he bully sons tried to kill?

Aemond was already being questioned so Rhaenyra asking that he just be questioned makes no sense. No adult says Aemond stole Vhagar but Jace and his crew tried to kill him over that. 

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1 minute ago, butterweedstrover said:

Focus on the why. 

No, I'll focus on what I saw.  Which is extremely different from your insistence that Daemon and Rhaenyra were somehow depicted as "heroes" in that sequence.  They weren't.  At all.  The suggestion they were is absurd.

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2 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I dunno, Harwin was:

1. A man willing to be her lover

2. Willing to be discreet about it

3. Willing to be subservient and never acknowledge his children'

4. Close enough at hand

5. Carry this strange relationship forward for decades.

she could bring in a lyssene descendant whore , pay him enough through years and make sure that's all the poor guy will ever hope for . there would be other ways as well . heir to Harrenhall was a gamble from the start . Cole was a powerless knight and could screw her over . imagine what Harwin could do if he wasn't so uniquely devoted.

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3 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Daemon, Qarl, Rhaenyra, and Laenor had a random guard killed so two lovers can live happily ever after and Rhaenyra can secure her throne (which is being threatened by a mother-in-law who attacked her with a knife and spent the past 10 years trying to destroy her). 

I mean, yeah.

It's also framed tragically that Laeonr wants to send away his lover and be a good husband to Rhaenyra which he can't be because his very presence draws attention to the fact that his children are not biologically his. That's an interesting and bizarre situation.

And no, Rhaenyra doesn't want him killed, which is something Daemon would have gladly done but chose not to do.

It's an interesting story beat.

You may not like it but it should be discussed in-universe I believe versus anger over the character choices by the writers. None of it is out of character.

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27 minutes ago, Minsc said:

 

Aemond was already being questioned so Rhaenyra asking that he just be questioned makes no sense. No adult says Aemond stole Vhagar but Jace and his crew tried to kill him over that. 

Question about where he heard the rumor from, come on. 

As for the rest, he was threatening to kill a bunch of kids. He was the oldest one and decided to try and beat them all up, including hitting a little girl. If a little girl shoved me for stealing her dragon everyone would expect me to be the one to deescalate, not punch her in the face.  

No one watching is going to blame the freaking children for defending themselves. 

Edited by butterweedstrover
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1 minute ago, EggBlue said:

she could bring in a lyssene descendant whore , pay him enough through years and make sure that's all the poor guy will ever hope for . there would be other ways as well . heir to Harrenhall was a gamble from the start . Cole was a powerless knight and could screw her over . imagine what Harwin could do if he wasn't so uniquely devoted.

The white hair isn't going to be enough given other elements of Corlys' family.

But it was really just Westeros' bad genetic lottery that fucked Rhaenyra over.

Her children could have easily come out looking like her as we see with Alicent's vile kids.

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Just now, C.T. Phipps said:

I mean, yeah.

It's also framed tragically that Laeonr wants to send away his lover and be a good husband to Rhaenyra which he can't be because his very presence draws attention to the fact that his children are not biologically his. That's an interesting and bizarre situation.

And no, Rhaenyra doesn't want him killed, which is something Daemon would have gladly done but chose not to do.

It's an interesting story beat.

You may not like it but it should be discussed in-universe I believe versus anger over the character choices by the writers. None of it is out of character.

But I never said I disliked it. My point was in the grandier scheme of things it plays into Blacks good, Greens bad story arch. 

With Alicent being completely villainized with no redeeming qualities (excuses for her bad behavior does not make her behavior any less bad) 

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@butterweedstrover

I don't think anyone is going to shift your perspective on this, but considering the amount of disagreement you are encountering here, perhaps indulge the idea that your objections to the show are not a failure of the show, but that your interpretation of events is particularly unique and not common among the audience.

Nothing wrong with that, of course. It's unfortunate that it damages your enjoyment of the show, but not everything is for everyone. 

At any rate, I personally only have a few objections to the show, but otherwise I think the writers are doing a splendid job of writing what is no doubt a very challenging adaptation.

Edited by IFR
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8 minutes ago, DMC said:

No, I'll focus on what I saw.  Which is extremely different from your insistence that Daemon and Rhaenyra were somehow depicted as "heroes" in that sequence.  They weren't.  At all.  The suggestion they were is absurd.

Not heroes, the heroes. 

They did something bad to help each other out. Your point is like watching some teen show where the main characters steal something to save their friends and going "but theft is bad." 

It's about showing the dedication the crew has for each other and how this is their story, not dwelling on the suffering their adventures might hypothetically cause. If that was what the show wanted it would might have actual done something to make the guards death impactful to someone or something. 

Edited by butterweedstrover
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9 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

Two lines:

Daemon: We could not marry unless Laenor were dead.

Rhaenyra: I know.

Corlys knew Daemon well. They were together in the Stepstones campaign for many year. It's easy to infer that some degree of friendship evolved from there. Daemon had been in a loveless and politically inconvenient marriage for a decade and the only thing that he had done was complaining.

That is obviously a smokescreen for the audience so they do believe they actually murder Laenor. Because this show established not once but twice in previous episodes that Targaryen tradition can involve polygamy if done per Valyrian rites - which is what they do in the end.

Rhaenyra does have two husbands now ... the public doesn't know it, but they do. And the public might learn if Laenor was to return.

If Daemon had nothing to do with Laenor's death in the book and Corlys had reason to believe this to be true ... then it makes sense that he stood by the Blacks later on.

But in context the story George spins there gives the Velaryons little and less reason to do this. Rhaenyra may have cuckolded the son, insisting that one of her brood succeed Corlys as Lord of Driftmark. She also ends up having Corlys' own nephew executed and her father eventually cuts out half a dozen of Velaryon tongues.

It is clear in the story that Corlys sided with Rhaenyra in all those matters, of course, else his subsequent actions would make no sense at all.

But this isn't something that strikes one as a well-written and obvious plotline. Especially since in the book it is quite clear that Rhaenyra does not like Laenor and their marriage is a clear failure, nearly as bad or worse as Rhea-Daemon.

If we go with show stuff and have Daemon (and Rhaenyra) actually be involved with Laenor's death then the mere fact that these two people actually marry each other very shortly after Laena and Laenor's death should be more than enough to cut ties permanently with them. Viserys was pissed, too, after all, and they were not spitting on the memory of his children there.

9 hours ago, Ran said:

I suspect they are leaving themselves room to have him in, but I also think that if they are cutting Addam, they are probably cutting Daeron too. They've broken down the second season and scripts are already written, so I think casting will reveal all... or maybe there's some reference in the last three episodes.

As I wrote above, the spoiler reports we had claim

Spoiler

that Daeron will be mentioned this season specifically by Aemond and Otto.

Could be one of those wrong claims, but it feels possibly correct, especially since there are four bloodlines flowing from Alicent. Otto and Aemond are likely to have more than a few scenes together now that the guy has Vhagar and Otto is positively giddy about that. The guy is really a shithead, only starting to see people as important or real when they look like promising pawns.

Laenor's return certainly would have the potential for tension in the show. It would cause trouble for Rhaenyra since polygamy is definitely not popular and, so far, unprecedented for Targaryen women. It could also friction in her extended family and the Black camp. This would be a much better cause for friction on Dragonstone than Corlys childishly complaining that Rhaenyra's war killed his beloved wife.

There are ways to do this and keeping Addam and Alyn ... or Laenor could stick around to play the role of Addam at Tumbleton. A great way there could be to turn either Hugh or Ulf into Laenor's new lover, causing him to take it upon himself to avenge their betrayal by assembling an army to free Tumbleton.

If Addam and Alyn play their intended roles, then Laenor would strike one as one of the dragonriders who die at Rook's Rest or in the Gullet (Addam could then claim Seasmoke after Laenor's death).

If Addam claims Seasmoke eventually then we definitely should have confirmation that Laenor is dead by then. Qarl could return and reveal it, for instance.

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4 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Question about where he heard the rumor from, come on. 

As for the rest, he was threatening to kill a bunch of kids. He was the oldest one and decided to try and beat them all up, including hitting a little girl. If a little girl shoved me for still her dragon everyone would expect me to be the one to deescalate, not punch in the face.  

No one watching is going to blame the freaking children for defending themselves. 

So Rhaenyra was just saying they obvious 

 

They attacked him first. He was the ones defending himself. 

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4 minutes ago, IFR said:

@butterweedstrover

I don't think anyone is going to shift your perspective on this, but considering the amount of disagreement you are encountering here, perhaps indulge the idea that your objections to the show are not a failure of the show, but that your interpretation of events is particularly unique and not common among the audience.

Quantity doesn't really matter. It's not about the failure of the show in a technical sense, it's about what the show is trying to accomplish and why that thing is not conducive of a good story or the claims Martin himself has attached to this show. I mean, the show is succeeding in making Alicent look evil, so it's not a failure at all. 

But let's actually whittle this down a little, here are some of the arguments I oppose: 

1. Rhaenyra wanted Aemond tortured 

2. Daemon killing some unnamed guard was meant to somehow reflect moral corruption upon the Blacks  

3. Rhaenyra's characterization post episode 5 fits her book counterpart 

Now all three of these I find to be completely inadequate claims, and on further inspection somewhat pointless. 

When Rhaenyra is made out in the book to be jealous and bitter people respond with the claim that this comes from an unreliable source. And yet they cannot find a passage where Rhaenyra during this period in her life is calm, diplomatic, sensible, and kind. 

This is just assumed to be the case but it is really an invention of the show. There is no basis for it either in the book or in the previous five episodes. So why does the show do this if not to make Alicent look worse in comparison. If Rhaenyra is having her flaws excised from her character then the show has a less compelling story on its hand. 

In the end we get back to this central point: 

Alicent having reasons (which the show does not describe) for being jealous, vindictive, and power hungry does not justify her behavior. Her actions are evil regardless of why she became this way. And she became this way because of a creative decision amongst the writers, not because the first five episodes guaranteed this outcome or that the source material forced them to write her like this.  

And I ask does this make for compelling television and my answer is no. It makes for story where there is only one side to root for. 

 

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3 hours ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

It's hard enough for many people to swallow Targaryen polgyamy or a woman in the throne. A woman with two husbands? That would be the straw that broke the camel's back for most people.

Sure enough, it might not make Rhaenyra more popular. But she will be fighting a war already, so she wins or she dies, anyway, no? Alicent is likely going to be furious, that's for sure.

3 hours ago, Colonel Green said:

Even if they thought Daemon murdered him (evidently they didn’t), they can’t betroth the girls to Aemond and Daeron because they are Daemon’s children and live with Daemon.

Daemon and Laena and their children were living at High Tide prior to Daemon's third marriage. While it is possible that Daemon could get away from there with the children to marry Rhaenyra ... it is just as possible that he couldn't.

And if the children are already on Dragonstone - just pay Rhaenyra and Daemon a visit and invite the girls for a visit to Driftmark. All you need to do is be smart enough to pretend you still the nice and somewhat stupid father-in-law before you show your true Green colors.

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12 minutes ago, Minsc said:

So Rhaenyra was just saying they obvious 

 

They attacked him first. He was the ones defending himself. 

He escalated the situation and as the oldest in the room he should not have. 

The little girl shoved him because she thought he stole her dragon. No audience member is going to call her evil for doing that. 

They will call a grown man (which Aemond is) punching her in the face and threatening to kill all those children a maniac. 

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43 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I mean it absolutely DOES draw a bunch of nasty vicious pieces of shit and enemies of the crown to prop up Aegon II as a puppet king and forment civil war. The joke is that Alicent is their leader and it DOES get Aegon II and her other children killed. Specifically because she DOES make them a flashpoint for it.

It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

The thing is that there WAS an alternative and that was to be Rhaenyra's supporters and they'd have eventually married themselves back in even if it wasn't that generation.

When you actively make yourself into someone’s enemy, well yes, in this world, that person will be coming for you.  Alicent made herself into Rhaenyra’s enemy.

In a way, it’s similar to Sansa and Daenerys in GOT.  Sansa actively made herself an enemy to Daenerys, leaving Jon having to choose between them.  

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