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[Spoilers] Episode 107 Discussion


Ran
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10 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Not heroes, the heroes. 

They did something bad to help each other out. Your point is like watching some teen show where the main characters steal something to save their friends and going "but theft is bad." 

So...your objection is the protagonists of the show did something evil and we're all....what exactly?  Supposed to hate them?  Because, it seemed like you were arguing the opposite for quite a while there?

And btw, the last twenty years of HBO has been replete with protagonists that do evil things.  Like, that's literally the idea of prestige TV between HBO and AMC.  Name a show - Sopranos, Wire, Breaking Bad, Mad Men, Walking Dead Westworld, Succession, Game of Thrones - they all involve the protagonists doing evil shit.  If you don't like that, that's fine.  And, honestly, there's something to be said about watching a bunch of white men be assholes over and over again.  But that doesn't seem to be your objection.

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5 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

He escalated the situation and as the oldest in the room he should not have. 

The little girl shoved him because she thought he stole her dragon. No audience member is going to call her evil for doing that. 

They will call a grown man (which Aemond is) punching her in the face and threatening to kill all those children a maniac. 

The Velayrons escalated the situation every time not Aemond. 

Aemond isn't a grown man. He is around Sansa's age in the first season. 

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4 minutes ago, DMC said:

So...your objection is the protagonists of the show did something evil and we're all....what exactly?  Supposed to hate them?  Because, it seemed like you were arguing the opposite for quite a while there? 
 

My point is the dead guard isn’t supposed to reflect badly on team black since the show has an inherit bias towards them.

4 minutes ago, DMC said:

And btw, the last twenty years of HBO has been replete with protagonists that do evil things.  Like, that's literally the idea of prestige TV between HBO and AMC.  Name a show - Sopranos, Wire, Breaking Bad, Mad Men, Walking Dead Westworld, Succession, Game of Thrones - they all involve the protagonists doing evil shit.  If you don't like that, that's fine.  And, honestly, there's something to be said about watching a bunch of white men be assholes over and over again.  But that doesn't seem to be your objection.

There is a world of a difference between characters doing bad things portrayed as evil and characters doing bad things portrayed as heroic.

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The Green's motivations have mainly been told to us through Otto and Rhaenys. The realm will not accept Rhaenyra. The realm will never accept a woman on the IT. It would have been beneficial to show us a glimpse of the realm being like this besides the Great Council.

For example, there could have been a scene between Otto, his brother, the Lord Hightower, and maybe the High Septon where they discuss Rhaenyra and her bastard kids and they harken to the days of Maegor when the Faith rose against House Targaryen (for different reasons, but it wouldn't be a giant leap).

Another example could be Cregan Stark. Shouldn't there be a mini-civil war going on around this time in the North, with Cregan's uncle having usurped the seat of Winterfell? Sure, that's a man-vs-man scenario, but it would serve to showcase how precarious a young person's situation is when it comes to their inheritance.

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1 minute ago, butterweedstrover said:

My point is the dead guard isn’t supposed to reflect badly on team black since the show has an inherit bias towards them.

Yep.  The show has an inherent bias towards the blacks.  So did the books.  I don't understand continually whining about it when it's that manifest to you.

2 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

There is a world of a difference between characters doing bad things portrayed as evil and characters doing bad things portrayed as heroic.

....Problem here is what you're talking about was not portrayed as heroic.  That's entirely in your head.

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1 minute ago, butterweedstrover said:

In Westeros he is. He decided to start the brawl when he responded to a little girl’s shove with outright threats of murder and follow through.

No he's not. Aemond wasn't born in the last episode before the 10 year time jump. So Aemond is at most 11-12. Jace is almost his age.

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8 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

In Westeros he is. He decided to start the brawl when he responded to a little girl’s shove with outright threats of murder and follow through.

Aemond is around the same as when Joffrey still needed a regent, so he isn't. 

 

No, he respond with a shove. He only issues a threat after all the Velayrons swung at him first. 

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8 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

It would have been beneficial to show us a glimpse of the realm being like this besides the Great Council.

Episode 4, the scene in Flea Bottom where people reflexively booed the mummer playing Rhaenyra and cheered the mummer playing Aegon. Daemon even makes a point of it.

We also have Jason Lannister very clearly thinking that of course the king wants to marry off Rhaenyra so that he can place his firstborn son on the Throne.

More of this wouldn't have hurt! But they have at least made some effort to show that there are people other than the Hightowers who just assume that of course Aegon should be king, because he's male.

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So there definitely is an expectation of sexual favors between Larys and Alicent, right? I get the impression that, aside from a general lack of conscience, Larys is motivated by an obsession with her. Maybe they removed the foot fetish stuff so that they could include a real quid pro quo later one.

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14 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

The Green's motivations have mainly been told to us through Otto and Rhaenys. The realm will not accept Rhaenyra. The realm will never accept a woman on the IT. It would have been beneficial to show us a glimpse of the realm being like this besides the Great Council.

For example, there could have been a scene between Otto, his brother, the Lord Hightower, and maybe the High Septon where they discuss Rhaenyra and her bastard kids and they harken to the days of Maegor when the Faith rose against House Targaryen (for different reasons, but it wouldn't be a giant leap).

Another example could be Cregan Stark. Shouldn't there be a mini-civil war going on around this time in the North, with Cregan's uncle having usurped the seat of Winterfell? Sure, that's a man-vs-man scenario, but it would serve to showcase how precarious a young person's situation is when it comes to their inheritance.

Even if they did all this it wouldn’t change the fact that Rhaenyra is having her throne stolen from her due to sexism. 
 

So the audience would expect Alicent to stand by her or be deemed a villain. 
 

The only way to foment real nuance to the character’s emotions is to legitimately show Rhaenyra capable of killing Alicent’s children and unwilling to offer her an olive branch or show how Rhaenyra’s actions, not her sex, will turn the realm against her. 
 

Something the show is unwilling to do.

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4 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

So there definitely is an expectation of sexual favors between Larys and Alicent, right? I get the impression that, aside from a general lack of conscience, Larys is motivated by an obsession with her. Maybe they removed the foot fetish stuff so that they could include a real quid pro quo later one.

I don't know how to feel about this, really. Moments like that make me wish that Larys vas Varys.

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Corlys is too good... there is no way that the whole "History remembers names, not blood" thing makes any sense whatsoever. 

Yeah it is an iffy subject to go into, I don't wanna get into it, but just wanna say it was not convincing at all. 

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25 minutes ago, DMC said:

Yep.  The show has an inherent bias towards the blacks.  So did the books.  I don't understand continually whining about it when it's that manifest to you. 
 

It wasn’t in the first five episodes and then they went harder against the greens than the book itself by removing Rhaenyra’s flaws (her jealousy, undiplomatic tone, betrayal of her husband, etc.) and giving them to Alicent. 
 

Do you get my issue? It’s not whining, it’s a discussion about the show and it’s merits or lack there of.

25 minutes ago, DMC said:

....Problem here is what you're talking about was not portrayed as heroic.  That's entirely in your head.

The murder of the nameless guard wasn’t heroic, it was helping his niece secure her throne which was the heroic part.
 

The murder itself not portrayed as villainous. What was portrayed as villainous is Daemon seemingly paying to see Leanor dead. The death of the guard was just a means to end, that end being helping Rhaenyra in her righteous battle against the greens.
 

Edited by butterweedstrover
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7 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Even if they did all this it wouldn’t change the fact that Rhaenyra is having her throne stolen from her due to sexism. 
 

So the audience would expect Alicent to stand by her or be deemed a villain. 
 

The only way to foment real nuance to the character’s emotions is to legitimately show Rhaenyra capable of killing Alicent’s children and unwilling to offer her an olive branch or show how Rhaenyra’s actions, not her sex, will turn the realm against her. 
 

Something the show is unwilling to do.

Why cannot I like your post? It works the other way around too... when Jeyne Royce supports Rhaenyra saying something like the women should stick together, I think its a really smart political move. 

The realm does not turn against her, but I get your point. 

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6 minutes ago, slant said:

Corlys is too good... there is no way that the whole "History remembers names, not blood" thing makes any sense whatsoever. 

The sense it makes is this: people who had the Velaryon name will sit the Iron Throne, and I presume he's thinking that that will not be the case if he rocks the boat by denying Luke High Tide because that may undo everything, ruin his influence that he has through Rhaenyra and Daemon, and make the Hightowers ascendant for good.

Those kids see him as their grandfather, it's a huge benefit to him and House Velaryon even if they do not have Velaryon blood.

What I would have preferred is if we have established in this episode that he also intends to ask (read: require) that Rhaenyra betroth her eldest sons to Baela and Rhaena. This should already have been established, frankly. That way it ends up just as it does in the books, that his actual blood descendants will sit the Iron Throne and head House Velaryon as well, just not quite as directly.

Hopefully they address this in a future episode, but there's not much time left.

Edited by Ran
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3 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

book quote: “Childbirth exacted a toll on the princess; the weight that Rhaenyra gained during her pregnancies never entirely left her, and by the time her youngest boy was born, she had grown stout and thick of waist, the beauty of her girlhood a fading memory, though she was but twenty years of age. According to Mushroom, this only served to deepen her resentment of her stepmother, Queen Alicent, who remained slender and graceful at half again her age.”  

The show reverses this to make Alicent bitter and Jealous of Rhaenyra in case people became confused about who to root for.

 

 

The books in no way establishes Rhaenyra by the time of the dance being calm and diplomatic. 
 

That was a show invention to make it easier to root for them and against the greens.

Well, you’d have to point out where my arguments are objectively false before throwing language like that around. 
 

As for Larys, the fact that she accepts working with a cold blooded murder who admitted to butchering his family shows how she has just embraced the villain role so people don’t have to think too hard.

1. "According to the fool mushroom" , your argument only works if you believe Mushroom to 1st have personal knowledge of Rhaenyras feeling , 2nd be telling the truth, and 3rd "history" to actually record it

2. The show doesn't make her jealous of Rhaenyra's looks . It makes her at best angry because she didn't follow traditional stances of marriage and had bastards 

 

3. Reinforcing a narrative isn't the same as  changing it. We know from the green council that it is Alicent who wants Aegon on the throne, not Aegon . So that ambition was clearly there for a while as everyone in the room was in agreement except Beesbury.  And we know from that same period that Rhaenyras is willing to be diplomatic , simply extending that doesn't change a single thing . 

 

I'm really not understanding why you are taking this position other than simply wanting Rhaenyra to look evil for the sake of your own fan fiction. 

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1 minute ago, slant said:

Why cannot I like your post?
 

No clue. Someone else pointed this out to me, I guess I’ll bring it up with the mods at some point.

1 minute ago, slant said:

 It works the other way around too... when Jeyne Royce supports Rhaenyra saying something like the women should stick together, I think its a really smart political move. 

The realm does not turn against her, but I get your point. 

Yeah, the problem with the whole the realm would not support a women as that even with a viable alternative they do side the women, a great many of them actually. 
 

Otherwise there would be no war.

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1 minute ago, Ran said:

The sense it makes is this: people with the Velaryon name will sit the Iron Throne, and I presume he's thinking that that will not be the case if he rocks the boat by denying Luke High Tide because that may undo everything. Those kids see him as their grandfather, it's a huge benefit to him and House Velaryon even if they do not have Velaryon blood.

Oh I absolutely agree there, and I am really liking Rhaenys and Velaryons... such an arrangement would indeed make sense. Also, that he would stand up for his grand children in front of Rhaenys. However, what Rhaenys suggests is also a move he can make. 

In any way, what I found unbelievable was the principle behind it. Just saying that oh the blood does not matter it is only the name... I do not think that someone in a medieval setting would have found that to be a prudent method of going about establishing their legacy, no matter how open minded they are. 

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