[Spoilers] Episode 107 Discussion

[Ran]

Just now, slant said:

In any way, what I found unbelievable was the principle behind it. Just saying that oh the blood does not matter it is only the name... I do not think that someone in a medieval setting would have found that to be a prudent method of going about establishing their legacy, no matter how open minded they are. 

I admit, I agree, which is why I would have preferred it if they had already made it clear that he intends to make sure that his bloodline also continues through the crown and the rule of High Tide. I think they missed a beat not making that a subject of the episode. 

[EggBlue]

12 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

So there definitely is an expectation of sexual favors between Larys and Alicent, right? I get the impression that, aside from a general lack of conscience, Larys is motivated by an obsession with her. Maybe they removed the foot fetish stuff so that they could include a real quid pro quo later one.

yes , definitely . last ep, the way he was sniffing the flower representing Alicent was telling. but now Cole downright said it! and it makes total sense with the acting . he's the weirdo stalker that Alicent's afraid of but keeps close just in case . maybe  we'll see the love triangle after all! 

3 minutes ago, Ran said:

The sense it makes is this: people who had the Velaryon name will sit the Iron Throne, and I presume he's thinking that that will not be the case if he rocks the boat by denying Luke High Tide because that may undo everything, ruin his influence that he has through Rhaenyra and Daemon, and make the Hightowers ascendant for good.

Those kids see him as their grandfather, it's a huge benefit to him and House Velaryon even if they do not have Velaryon blood.

What I would have preferred is if we have established in this episode that he also intends to ask (read: require) that Rhaenyra betroth her eldest sons to Baela and Rhaena. This should already have been established, frankly. That way it ends up just as it does in the books, that his actual blood descendants will sit the Iron Throne and head House Velaryon as well, just not quite as directly.

Hopefully they address this in a future episode, but there's not much time left.

I proffered the betrothal happened when they were toddlers and by Laena and Rhaenyra , for the former's ambition and latter's desire to keep Velaryons and Daemon on her side , like in the book . but next episode is called "lord of Tides " if that's not where they address this , I don't know when's the time! 

[butterweedstrover]

10 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

1. "According to the fool mushroom" , your argument only works if you believe Mushroom to 1st have personal knowledge of Rhaenyras feeling , 2nd be telling the truth, and 3rd "history" to actually record it 

This doesn’t really work. Mushroom is part of the story and his version has a bit of truth just like everyone else’s.  
 

But this is what the book gives us, the book does not however make the slightest hint of the opposite which is what the show is running with.

10 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

2. The show doesn't make her jealous of Rhaenyra's looks . It makes her at best angry because she didn't follow traditional stances of marriage and had bastards  

It doesn’t matter why, it matters that the emotional dynamic between them has been reversed.

10 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

 

3. Reinforcing a narrative isn't the same as  changing it. We know from the green council that it is Alicent who wants Aegon on the throne, not Aegon . So that ambition was clearly there for a while as everyone in the room was in agreement except Beesbury.  And we know from that same period that Rhaenyras is willing to be diplomatic , simply extending that doesn't change a single thing .  
 

We know from the first five episodes that Alicent didn’t want to steal Rhaenyra’s throne and would only do it to protect her children. 
 

The book doesn’t give us a reason why she wanted Aegon on throne. Was it for her own personal power or to protect his life? 
 

The show did a 180 and made it all about Alicent’s personal ambition which wasn’t developed before hand.

10 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

 

I'm really not understanding why you are taking this position other than simply wanting Rhaenyra to look evil for the sake of your own fan fiction. 

Like I just want her to have flaws so Alicent’s position seems morally viable. 
 

Alicent must have some reason to want the throne that makes her side sympathetic besides muh power because otherwise the story will be one sided.

Edited October 3, 2022 by butterweedstrover

[Cashless Society]

16 minutes ago, slant said:

Corlys is too good... there is no way that the whole "History remembers names, not blood" thing makes any sense whatsoever. 

Yeah it is an iffy subject to go into, I don't wanna get into it, but just wanna say it was not convincing at all. 

Young Griff is the Pisswater Prince confirmed. 

[DMC]

17 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

It wasn’t in the first five episodes and then they went harder against the greens than the book itself by removing Rhaenyra’s flaws (her jealousy, undiplomatic tone, betrayal of her husband, etc.) and giving them to Alicent. 
 

Do you get my issue? It’s not whining, it’s a discussion about the show and it’s merits or lack there of.

You were whining during the first five episodes too.

18 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

The murder of the nameless guard wasn’t heroic, it was helping his niece secure her throne which was the heroic part.
 

The murder itself not portrayed as villainous. What was portrayed as villainous is Daemon seemingly paying to see Leanor dead. The death of the guard was just a means to end, that end being helping Rhaenyra in her righteous battle against the greens.

I'll let you continue to figure it out among yourself on what's heroic and what's not.

[The Bard of Banefort]

One of the best arguments against the Strong-bastards-shouldn’t-inherit camp in the books is that Jace turned out to be this golden boy prodigy who basically took over for Rhaenyra at age 14. He proved himself worthy of the Iron Throne, which made his heritage easier to overlook. Even if Rhaenyra’s “victory” technically came afterwards, his death was the beginning of the end. I’ll be curious to see how he’s portrayed after the next time skip. 
 

Speaking of which, how goofy is it that Aemond looks like a 40-year-old man? 
 

I think that GOT and even this season has shown that people will overlook just about anything if it’s emotionally satisfying. That gives HOTD a lot of leeway, but it puts a huge amount of pressure on how they handle Rhaenyra’s death. If they botch it, it will affect how viewers regard the whole show. I’m now thinking that they will whitewash her to avoid accusations of sexism. Fear of the Extremely Online clearly influenced Laenor’s fate.

[slant]

5 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

yes , definitely . last ep, the way he was sniffing the flower representing Alicent was telling. but now Cole downright said it! and it makes total sense with the acting . he's the weirdo stalker that Alicent's afraid of but keeps close just in case . maybe  we'll see the love triangle after all! 

I clocked that too... But did not register him as a creepy guy. So that's what his motivations are? Ugh this is pretty sordid lol. 

I thought the flower was from Braavos so its just her being out of place, and far from home. 

The explanation given was that she is in his control, but clearly that is not the case. So her response on the ship was a way to keep him interested and in her control despite what he did? 

Ooof what does 'discreet' mean now?  

Eeek 

[butterweedstrover]

1 minute ago, DMC said:

You were whining during the first five episodes too. 
 

I took issue with technical aspects but overall I like the direction of the story until episode 6. Doesn’t change anything I’ve said so far.

1 minute ago, DMC said:

I'll let you continue to figure it out among yourself on what's heroic and what's not.

Is that it really? Your not even go to try to get what I’m saying? 
 

Daemon helping Rhaenyra secure her throne is the heroic thing, not killing the guard.

[DMC]

1 minute ago, butterweedstrover said:

Is that it really? Your not even go to try to get what I’m saying?

Oh, I get what you're saying.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

By the way, why couldn't Viserys have named someone other than Otto as Hand after Lyonel's death?

[butterweedstrover]

10 minutes ago, DMC said:

Oh, I get what you're saying.

For someone with unusually aggressive language like framing criticism as “whining” and telling people to fuck off with their arguments you are peculiarly devoid of much substance to back up the ferocity of your positions.

Edited October 3, 2022 by butterweedstrover

[slant]

Oh and those two should get a room ^^

It's funny how much of Daemon's 'action' takes place in a shipwreck  

They are 'subverting audience expectations' with every sex scene lol. I thought the Cole and Rhaenyra one was alright, but Cole became soooo bitter for life. 

Edited October 3, 2022 by slant

[DMC]

10 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

For someone with unusually aggressive language like framing criticism as “whining” and telling people to fuck off with their arguments you are peculiarly devoid of much substance to back up the ferocity of your positions.

I...like, just explained to you my argument for hours.  Again, you want to get personal like this, take it to PM.

[EggBlue]

17 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

By the way, why couldn't Viserys have named someone other than Otto as Hand after Lyonel's death?

in the book he thinks of appointing Rhaenyra his hand but prefers to keep her and Alicent away from one another after Aemond incident . I hoped we see some of that here , perhaps with Rhaenyra trying to push for Corlys as hand if not herself , etc. only for Alicent to later win the argument because Viserys doesn't like Corlys and has an old friendship with Otto. 

[Rockroi]

2 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

How is Viserys supposed to give Alicent justice?

Lucerys - baseborn or not - is his grandchild. How will the cutting or maiming of Lucerys fix anything? It literally only creates more chaos.

I think that's a great question, and one Viserys himself laments at times - that if he takes an action it makes one person as unhappy as it makes another happy.  

But he should have done something.  The fact that an action will make somebody- even his own daughter - unhappy is no cause to do nothing.  Viserys' lament that they have to act like a family is not a reason to avoid punishing people in that family  Should Viserys have done an "eye for an eye?"  Certainly not, but a punishment would have been fitting.  His lack of action is familiar to Alicent and something she is upset over... as any parent would be.  

2 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Besides, all of the kids are injured and covered in their own blood. What more punishment do they need? And you can't punish Luc without punishing the other kids who are, arguably, more guilty than Luc is. Would Rhaenys and Corlys consent to such punishment? Judging by the way Rhaenys was holding her granddaughters, even moving to do anything to those girls would be met with absolute defiance and aggression.

I give a big "so what?"  If I get into a fist fight with somebody and they pull out a knife and stabs me, they are more culpable than I am for the damages (in the law its called a disproportional response).  These kids 1) started the fight, 2) they raised it first by hitting Aemond w rocks and 3) then used a knife.  

And .. yeah, others will have to be punished to.  Its almost as if law and order and tough concepts and require careful consideration, time, reflection and thought before implementing or avoiding.  You know?  Justice . . . It cannot be avoided merely because its messy.  

3 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Besides, Alicent is partially responsible for this chaos. She has absolutely no business telling her children that their nephews are bastards and that the Iron Throne is rightfully theirs.

I think Aegon gave the best answer for this- everyone knows.  Alicent did not tell everyone; it was deduced.  The fact that Alicent told them or did not does NOT rectify the underlying action nor does it forgive the attack (mostly- there is a concept in the law call "fighting words" but its very scaled back from something like this).  

And two can play at this game- by contrast Rhaenyra is also "partially responsible" for, you know, having bastards in the first place.  

3 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

The fact that Rhaenyra would harm or kill her half-siblings (particularly Aegon) is something that the Greens have made up. ...

Civil war is only ever an issue because the Greens make it an issue. There would no civil war if Otto and Alicent just left well enough alone.

History would disagree with you.  The books would disagree with you. Robert Baratheon would disagree with you; the paths of the books would disagree with you.  The little girl sitting in Pentose today will, literally, burn your city to the ground tomorrow if you do not do something about it.  That literally happened.  These people know that unresolved bastards hanging around are a threat to the stability of a monarchy which relies HEAVILY on the underlying stability therein.  

People in such societies use pretenders all the time to challenge established and not-so established dynasties in order to improve their own lot.  The stories of Westeroes society relies heavily on this process; it was not invented by Maegor nor an aberration due solely to him.  Its the virus that kills dynasties.  Sometimes literally. 

 

[butterweedstrover]

7 minutes ago, DMC said:

I...like, just explained to you my argument for hours.  Again, you want to get personal like this, take it to PM.

I never have nor ever will put into question the motives behind your arguments nor every use personal language to describe your opinions. 
 

I just hoped this discussion would not fizzle being as you had such strong opinions on the matter initially. 
 

Like in comparing Daemon killing a guard to Theon burning to kids. So let’s get into it: 

Daemon protecting Rhaenyra’s claim to the iron throne is heroic. 
 

Theon protecting his own claim to Winterfell is evil. 
 

One side is righteous, the other is framed as theft and wrong.

[Lord Varys]

40 minutes ago, Ran said:

Those kids see him as their grandfather, it's a huge benefit to him and House Velaryon even if they do not have Velaryon blood.

What I would have preferred is if we have established in this episode that he also intends to ask (read: require) that Rhaenyra betroth her eldest sons to Baela and Rhaena. This should already have been established, frankly. That way it ends up just as it does in the books, that his actual blood descendants will sit the Iron Throne and head House Velaryon as well, just not quite as directly.

Hopefully they address this in a future episode, but there's not much time left.

All in good time - Rhaenyra is trying to set up this now, since Alicent has rejected the Helaena-Jace match and betrothed Helaena to Aegon. Or why do you think did she tell Jace to spend time with his cousins? Or what the point was of Baela taking his hand? Or the girls running to Jace and Luke when they saw somebody had stolen Vhagar?

And to be perfectly clear - Laenor Velaryon is still alive and the heir to Driftmark at that point. The succession of Driftmark would have been his fish to fry after he came into his lordship. His parents have no right and/or no need to rule on his succession.

I did enjoy Rhaenys going with Baela as heir to Driftmark while Laenor was still alive - if the heir to Dorne cannot be both the future queen consort and the Princess of Dorne then it would also make sense that a king consort at Rhaenyra's side does not have to be a lord in his own right.

But you guys just have to accept that Corlys Velaryon actually does have the grace to not care whether his grandsons are his biological grandsons or merely his legal grandsons. And why not? What's this obsession with demanding that people cannot have a larger view of what's family?

[Lord Varys]

48 minutes ago, slant said:

In any way, what I found unbelievable was the principle behind it. Just saying that oh the blood does not matter it is only the name... I do not think that someone in a medieval setting would have found that to be a prudent method of going about establishing their legacy, no matter how open minded they are. 

The important thing is that you do have (male) heirs, not that they are actually your blood. The biggest problem in a medieval setting is a lack of (clear) heirs because that will lead to instability and strife.

Of course, it is not ideal to assume that your son was incapable of fathering children ... but so what? Corlys does have grandsons, anyway, and he likes them.

Making a fuzz about this by demanding specific matches could easily increase the whispers that something was amiss there.

[Khloey]

I just came across this article online : https://meaww.com/house-of-the-dragon-is-daemon-bisexual-fans-divided-after-leaked-scene-confirms-prince-sexuality

I didn't think Daemon was bisexual from the book, but I guess that makes sense, considering how many orgies he participated in. Even if he's not, he does sound like the kind of character that doesn't care about social conventions enough to care about what others might say. Though in the show, given the virility problem they gave him, he might have cared a little more about how his virility would be perceived.

[DMC]

8 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

I never have nor ever will put into question the motives behind your arguments nor every use personal language to describe your opinions. 

9 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Like in comparing Daemon killing a guard to Theon burning to kids. So let’s get into it: 

Daemon protecting Rhaenyra’s claim to the iron throne is heroic. 
 

Theon protecting his own claim to Winterfell is evil. 
 

One side is righteous, the other is framed as theft and wrong.

No.  One side is framed as horrific murder, while the other side is framed as understandable, but still murder.  There is nothing "heroic" about that scene, and the fact you keep insisting there is, again, demonstrates your own bias.