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[Spoilers] Episode 107 Discussion


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2 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

Dragons of flesh weaving dragons of thread. Is this a reference to the calling of banners for both sides? I've been trying to think what else it could mean.

I saw people suggesting it referred to them faking Laenor's death.

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1 hour ago, SeanF said:

When you actively make yourself into someone’s enemy, well yes, in this world, that person will be coming for you.  Alicent made herself into Rhaenyra’s enemy.

In a way, it’s similar to Sansa and Daenerys in GOT.  Sansa actively made herself an enemy to Daenerys, leaving Jon having to choose between them.  

Yes, the show seemed unaware that Sansa was engaged in malevolent country destabilizing behavior to someone who rescued them from a zombie horde.

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21 minutes ago, Khloey said:

I just came across this article online : https://meaww.com/house-of-the-dragon-is-daemon-bisexual-fans-divided-after-leaked-scene-confirms-prince-sexuality

I didn't think Daemon was bisexual from the book, but I guess that makes sense, considering how many orgies he participated in. Even if he's not, he does sound like the kind of character that doesn't care about social conventions enough to care about what others might say. Though in the show, given the virility problem they gave him, he might have cared a little more about how his virility would be perceived.

I think right now the person who understands Daemon the most is Viserys. 

And when Daemon says "I want nothing", he really means it. He is just frustrated and really alone. I am thinking he enjoys the pain and shame of those he beds more than any pleasure he gets himself, and he is not at all interested if they do not feel these things. He might be a nihilistic asexual, but there is some cruelty in there, maybe so others get a taste of what he himself is going through. 

I think why exactly Demon laughed at the funeral has an amazing answer. 

Edited by slant
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2 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

This goes back to the tragic backstoryTM trope where a villain is given reasons for being villainous.  

But the use of the term "villain" is overly broad.  Backstories and motivations are the tools we have to understanding why characters act.  And here I think - like others - that it gives Alicent some pretty good reasons to be how she is and does not make her a villain.  

 

2 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

But Alicent isn't fighting for her children's lives. You said yourself she is jealous of Rhaenyra and wants to bring her down a notch. If she cared about her children she would have considered the marriage proposal. All Alicent 2.0 wants is war. And no matter how wronged she feels her side is entirely unsympathetic which is why everyone hates her. 

First of all, yes she is absolutely fighting for her children's lives. I keep explaining this- pretenders to the throne can press their claims.  Maybe not today but someday so long as hey draw breath see Snow, Jon; Targaryen, Dany Baratheon, Stannis; etc.  And people who think they have been given a bad deal will use that person. 

And Rhaenyra knows that.  She can't NOT know that.  These children's are a danger.  So, hence, if they are a danger to Rhaenrya they are, by their nature, in danger. 

Second, Alicent is not just jealous; she also has justified issues with her (as explained above).  And her husband refuses to do anything.  I'd be kinda pissed to.  And she does wants the same clarification to the rule as everyone else- everyone in that room knows they are courting a war.

2 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Not since episode 5 when all the characters turned into different people. Now Criston Cole and Larys are far worst than Daemon. 

They did not become different people; they are the same people but they grew.  I think you are just angry at the time-jump and are taking it out in weird ways. 

2 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

The show went out of its way to tell us that they tried and Laenor could not finish. Anything else is you adding headcanon to create something that is not there. 

You use this phrase a lot.  I added no "headcanon"; Rheanyra  is culpable in this for not having natural children.  She tried?  Bad news- you have to try (*cough*) harder.  

Its almost as if she has an "obligation" and that she is not living up to it, but instead finds the thinnest of pretexts to avoid it... like exactly what Alicent is complaining about... right?  In other words... Alicent is on to something. 

 

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7 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Yes, the show seemed unaware that Sansa was engaged in malevolent country destabilizing behavior to someone who rescued them from a zombie horde.

You'd think Sansa would have the wit to have waited until Cersei (who would love nothing more than to get Sansa in the Black Cells for some quality time together) was dead, before trying to put Daenerys underground.

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42 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

in the book he thinks of appointing Rhaenyra his hand but prefers to keep her and Alicent away from one another after Aemond incident . I hoped we see some of that here , perhaps with Rhaenyra trying to push for Corlys as hand if not herself , etc. only for Alicent to later win the argument because Viserys doesn't like Corlys and has an old friendship with Otto. 

But Otto was fired for a very specific and understandable reason. Bringing him back just opens up old wounds.

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3 minutes ago, Rockroi said:

But the use of the term "villain" is overly broad.  Backstories and motivations are the tools we have to understanding why characters act.  And here I think - like others - that it gives Alicent some pretty good reasons to be how she is and does not make her a villain.   
 

The question is are her actions post episode 5 sympathetic at all? 
 

Is her taunting Rhaenyra for having children her husband could not provide sympathetic? Is her pressuring her children against those of Rhaenyra sympathetic? Is her jealous and mean attitude sympathetic? Is skulking sympathetic? Is her deal with Larys sympathetic? Is her mannerism towards the betrothal offer sympathetic? 
 

No, they are just that of the evil step-mother. And all that backstory about why she hates Rhaenyra is just your supposition to make sense of this dramatic shift in characterization.

3 minutes ago, Rockroi said:

 

First of all, yes she is absolutely fighting for her children's lives. I keep explaining this- pretenders to the throne can press their claims.  Maybe not today but someday so long as hey draw breath see Snow, Jon; Targaryen, Dany Baratheon, Stannis; etc.  And people who think they have been given a bad deal will use that person.  
 

Jon’s example requires either Jon to want the throne or Dany to show herself unfit in some way. 
 

Dany and Robert is if the line on the throne usurped a the previous bloodline. 
 

Stannis had a claim since Cersei’s children weren’t Roberts. 
 

Rhaenyra has her own blood as her children, she is not competing against an expelled family line, and she is not showing any great incompetence. 
 

All that is left is for Alicent to want the throne. With the reasons the show is giving us the only reason they’re endanger is because Alicent is making them which doesn’t fit her character of the previous episodes.

3 minutes ago, Rockroi said:

And Rhaenyra knows that.  She can't NOT know that.  These children's are a danger.  So, hence, if they are a danger to Rhaenrya they are, by their nature, in danger.  
 

They’re a danger because of Alicent. Because Alicent refuses a betrothal and because Alicent wants Rhaenyra removed.

3 minutes ago, Rockroi said:

Second, Alicent is not just jealous; she also has justified issues with her (as explained above).  And her husband refuses to do anything.  I'd be kinda pissed to.  And she does wants the same clarification to the rule as everyone else- everyone in that room knows they are courting a war. 
 

So she has reasons for being evil isn’t that compelling. Disney does that for their villains and the moral dilemma is still shallow and lacking in ambiguity.

3 minutes ago, Rockroi said:

They did not become different people; they are the same people but they grew.  I think you are just angry at the time-jump and are taking it out in weird ways

 

They didn’t grow, they are not real. This shift was a creative decision and I find it a lazy stupid decision.

3 minutes ago, Rockroi said:

You use this phrase a lot.  I added no "headcanon"; Rheanyra  is culpable in this for not having natural children.  She tried?  Bad news- you have to try (*cough*) harder.   
 

That’s your take but the show does it’s best to say otherwise.

3 minutes ago, Rockroi said:

Its almost as if she has an "obligation" and that she is not living up to it, but instead finds the thinnest of pretexts to avoid it... like exactly what Alicent is complaining about... right?  In other words... Alicent is on to something. 

 

Again, the show wants us to think she tried and he was the one to let her down and he is the one to blame. 
 

Marrying an uncooperative husband isn’t her fault since the marriage wasn’t her choice.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Daemon and Laena and their children were living at High Tide prior to Daemon's third marriage. While it is possible that Daemon could get away from there with the children to marry Rhaenyra ... it is just as possible that he couldn't.

And if the children are already on Dragonstone - just pay Rhaenyra and Daemon a visit and invite the girls for a visit to Driftmark. All you need to do is be smart enough to pretend you still the nice and somewhat stupid father-in-law before you show your true Green colors.

What you’re describing is them outright abducting Daemon’s children.

Viserys would never agree to betrothals under those circumstances, nor do I imagine would the girls themselves.

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15 minutes ago, Rockroi said:

You use this phrase a lot.  I added no "headcanon"; Rheanyra  is culpable in this for not having natural children.  She tried?  Bad news- you have to try (*cough*) harder.  

Its almost as if she has an "obligation" and that she is not living up to it, but instead finds the thinnest of pretexts to avoid it... like exactly what Alicent is complaining about... right?  In other words... Alicent is on to something. 

Maegor took 12 wives in an effort to get a trueborn son, I guess his failure is in not trying hard enough either.

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38 minutes ago, DMC said:

:lmao:

No.  One side is framed as horrific murder, while the other side is framed as understandable, but still murder.  There is nothing "heroic" about that scene, and the fact you keep insisting there is, again, demonstrates your own bias.

It’s murder that is treated as a non-serious crime. We can speculate that it is philosophically wrong but in the show’s framework the guy doesn’t matter and the moral consequence of his death is zilch. 
 

Compare that to Jessie killing Gale (Breaking Bad). He does it to save his friend but Gale is given a personality, a reason to live, and actual emotional and practical consequences for the character. 
 

BB framed that as wrong. This show does not frame the murder of the guard as wrong. We might know it on an intellectual level but the show either doesn’t know or doesn’t care.

Edited by butterweedstrover
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12 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Viserys probably thinks having her dad back will heal old wounds.

Keep your enemies closer... 

 

1 minute ago, Denam_Pavel said:

Maegor took 12 wives in an effort to get a trueborn son, I guess his failure is in not trying hard enough either.

Daemon would snigger at this. 

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13 hours ago, Raksha 2014 said:

If Laenor returns later on in the show, then Rhaenyra and Daemon's sons will be denounced as bastards.  It makes no sense for Laenor to return or reappear in any way.  Actually, it would have made more sense for Daemon to have quietly killed him without Rhaenyra's connivance.  

I wish I knew why Daemon was giggling at his wife's funeral and why none of the Velaryons objected or tried to kill him for the insult to Laena.  And why he seems to have no further interest in his daughters.

I thought Daemon was snickering at Vaemond Velayron's not so veiled remarks about Rhaenyra and "Laenor's" children.  He could hear the complaints and accusations of bastardy in Vaemond's glowing words spoken about what it means to be of House Velayron in relation to Laena and HER Velaryon children.  I took it as Daemon hearing it as a comparison and that he couldn't help but laugh at Vaemond's crassness in using Laena's funeral to get these veiled insults on record.  Hell, I suppose that is the main reason the writers had Vaemond deliver the remarks.  Still, I want to rewatch it (should I have the time, barely have the time to post, much less rewatch) to get the full gist of it.  These were my initial thoughts, though.

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2 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

The way they've handled Helaena has probably been my biggest disappointment so far. And Daeron not existing in the show makes it even worse.

She seems neuroatypical not insane, which is a nice bit of representation. Also sadly all too realistic in how we're treated.

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Just now, Colonel Green said:

What you’re describing is them outright abducting Daemon’s children.

Viserys would never agree to betrothals under those circumstances, nor do I imagine would the girls themselves.

Depends. Viserys agreed to a lot of shitty matches, didn't he? Especially after the fact.

The fact remains - not only had Corlys the power to crush Daemon and Rhaenyra like bugs (being the richest man in Westeros it would have been very easy for him to hire assassins to take them out, if push came to shove even Faceless Men), his support was essential should Rhaenyra even think about taking on the Greens in a violent struggle.

If Corlys had so much as suspected that they were involved in Laenor's death - or if he had felt insulted by Laenor being cuckolded and/or by Rhaenyra-Daemon's hasty marriage (which he should have been) - then this would have been reason enough to turn against the Blacks or at least not support them in a war.

The fact remains that Daemon being a natural/obvious suspect in Laenor's murder makes it very hard to swallow that the Velaryons end up supporting Rhaenyra in the Dance. Even more so in light of the whole Vaemond business, which should also have had some effect on Corlys' family. He cannot have hated all his nephews, one imagines.

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3 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

She seems neuroatypical not insane, which is a nice bit of representation. Also sadly all too realistic in how we're treated.

As someone who belongs to that category of people myself, I can say that I could live without that bit of representation if we got a better character with Helaena as a result. Especially since she's supposed to be involved in some important events down the line.

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