[Spoilers] Episode 107 Discussion

[C.T. Phipps]

5 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

As someone who belongs to that category of people myself, I can say that I could live without that bit of representation if we got a better character with Helaena as a result. Especially since she's supposed to be involved in some important events down the line.

I'm curious what you'd define as a "better" character?

[C.T. Phipps]

https://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/2022/10/house-of-dragon-1x7-driftmark-review.html

HOUSE OF THE DRAGON 1x07 "DRIFTMARK" is an improvement over the previous episode and gives me hope that we're going to be getting over the massive time skips that leave absolutely no consequences to events like Criston Cole's murder of a guest during a royal wedding as well as sparing a knight from suicide. This takes place a reasomable amount of time after the previous episode and is mostly spent dealing with the emotional fallout that has been so far badly lacking from the series.

The premise of this episode is that the various factions of Westeros' royal court have gathered together for Laena Targaryen's funeral. It is happening at Driftmark and all the simmering tensions are coming to a head. There's Daemon's branch of the family, Rhaenyra's spawn, Alicent's scummy little sprogs, King Viserys trying to be peacemaker in a family that hates each other, and the Velaryons. It's really a royal **** show and that just makes it all the better.

Oddly, the MVP of the episode for me is Corlys Velaryon because of his relationship with the obviously not-his-blood grandchildren. I come from a family that included adoption and married an adopted woman, so I am strongly supportive families that don't involve blood kin. Corlys clearly views them as his grandsons and heirs and I like how Rhaenys, his wife, is flat out confused about how her ambitious husband doesn't see this as a problem. It actually implies to me that Laenor may have gotten this attitude from his father.

Speaking of Rhaenys, it's interesting to see someone who is just tired of all the court infighting and scheming as well as someone who has given up on the idea of making a name for herself. She was someone who could have been a contender but given the decades long time jump, has been worn down by it all and now just wants to retire. It's an image of what could have happened to Rhaenyra if she'd chosen to cast aside her ambitions.

Alicent Hightower continues to be portrayed by Olivia Cooke as a vindictive spiteful woman with a possible personality disorder. I buy the dramatic change given the ten year time skip and we even have it textually spelled out she's jealous as well as hate-filled due to the fact Rhaenyra has been able to largely live outside the confines of a woman's expected place in Westeros' patriarchal society. Still, people have expressed how much they missed the more sympathetic Alienct from the first five episodes.

Emma D'Arcy's Rhaenyra is a character I think has been well-served by the time skip as she's actually come to the realization she needs to look after her future after thirty odd years of doing what she wanted. For her children's sake if not for herself. Unfortunately, the die has already been cast and Alicent wants her dead as well as her children. The kind of accusations thrown at them are not something that can easily be cast aside and her husband, Laenor, is a liability since he's been sort of a load for the entirety of their marriage.

Rhaenyra may overestimate Daemon Targaryen, though, since she sees him as the kind of badass warrior prince she needs to kill everyone who stands in the way of her to the throne. Daemon is more or less ignoring his daughters and struggling with his desire for Rhaenyra that he thinks he "saved" by not seducing a decade earlier. Rhaenyra says that wasn't his choice to make and certainly didn't help their situation in any way. Given this is an uncle-niece relationship, I go "ahhh", but Targaryens gonna Targaryen.

My biggest disappointment in the episode, really, is Laenor because my fears about his use in the show was realized. I was never overly concerned about the "Bury the Gays" trope (which I probably should be as a Cis Het man) but the fact that he was just going to show up, stand in the background, and eventually get shoved off stage to get to Daemon/Rhaenyra. Which is pretty much what happens and I feel like is a massive-massive waste of his character.

The children have a big role in the story, particularly Prince Aemond, who is actually the most important Green during the dance aside from Alicent herself. He claims the largest of the dragons in Westeros and goes immediately from being an unimportant second son to one who could become king himself if he desired it. That fits into the larger theme of second sons having no power other what they seize for himself and he's changed the game so the Greens are no longer merely annoying but actually dangerous. We also see a likable bullied boy go from zero to monster in a few scenes too.

In conclusion, this was a better episode than the previous one with lots of emotional beats I enjoyed. I hope it will continue to follow up the events of episodes without any more enormous time skips. I still had some issues with how they sort of casually write out characters that should have full arcs but there's no use complaining about spilled milk too. Indeed, my biggest complaint is they tried to fake out the audience with what our characters decide to do when they could have shown them discussing it--which I feel would have been interesting on its own. My second biggest complaint is that the episode is dark, literally so, and I could barely see what happened half the time.

Edited October 3, 2022 by C.T. Phipps

[Ingelheim]

3 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I mean, it's literally Cole's historical role in Westeros to become Kingmaker and betray his monarch (Rhaenyra) to put up his own puppet.

 

Sure but it's not logical in terms of the context of Westeros. He should have been scorned at least for the first two events, but the third is actually high treason. 

If you watch the episode, two Kingsguards restrain him by the Lord Commander orders. That's just absurd.

[The Bard of Banefort]

23 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

She seems neuroatypical not insane, which is a nice bit of representation. Also sadly all too realistic in how we're treated.

I meant after Jaehaerys is killed. She goes “mad” with grief.

[C.T. Phipps]

1 minute ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I meant after Jaehaerys is killed. She goes “mad” with grief.

Yeah, we'll see how that goes.

And whether or not she's disposed of by Larys.

I also liked the idea she may start an affair with Aemond to have his bastards.

Edited October 3, 2022 by C.T. Phipps

[The Grey Wolf Strikes Back]

@butterweedstrover

Aemond was a child the same as the rest of them. Furthermore, the first blow was struck by Rhaenyra and Daemon's kids. On top of that, they drew a knife and used it AFTER blinding Aemond with sand, at which point he wasn't a threat. Not to mention the fact all Aemond had to hand was a rock and, if I recall the scene correctly, he spends more time holding it up threateningly than actually using it. Hell, at one point, he was flat on his back, surrounded, and getting pummeled!

Yes, Aemond said some unwise things but from my perspective the Blacks kids were quite clearly more in the wrong there than him.

Especially, when you consider the fact that Rhaena isn't actually automatically entitled to Vhagar just because her mother rode it. Heck, if you look at the actual dialogue, Aemond in the beginning is a bit smug but hardly out-of-line when he says that Vhagar has a new rider and that if Rhaena wanted her that badly she shouldn't have waited.

Honestly, the idea that Aemond is in the wrong for hitting a girl AFTER said girl attacks him (along with her sister and two of her cousins!) strikes me as emblematic of everything wrong with the "can't hit a girl" mentality.

Now, if you said that, as the eldest, Aemond had a responsibility to de-esscalate the situation, then you might have a point but the fact of the matter is he was still a child regardless and the Blacks kids conducted themselves in a similarly bad, if not worse, manner.

Edited October 3, 2022 by The Grey Wolf Strikes Back

[C.T. Phipps]

1 minute ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

@butterweedstrover

Aemond was a child the same as the rest of them. Furthermore, the first blow was struck by Rhaenyra and Daemon's kids. On top of that, they drew a knife and used it AFTER blinding Aemond with sand, at which point he wasn't a threat. Not to mention the fact all Aemond had to hand was a rock and, if I recall the scene correctly, he spends more time holding it up threateningly than actually using it. Hell, at one point, he was flat on the ground, surrounded, and getting pummeled!

Yes, Aemond said some unwise things but from my perspective the Blacks kids were quite clearly more in the wrong there than him.

Especially, when you consider the fact that Rhaena isn't automatically entitled to Vhagar just because her mother rode it. Heck, if you look at the actual dialogue, Aemond in the beginning is a bit smug but he's hardly being rude when he says that Vhagar has a new rider and that if Rhaena wanted her that badly she shouldn't have waited.

Honestly, the idea that Aemond is in the wrong for hitting a girl AFTER said girl attacks him (along with her sister and two of her cousins!) strikes me as emblematic of everything wrong with the "can't hit a girl" mentality.

Now, if you said that, as the eldest, Aemond had a responsibility to de-esscalate the situation, then you might have a point but the fact of the matter is he was still a child regardless and the Blacks kids conducted themselves in a similarly bad, if not worse, manner.

On my end, the Kings Guard looks worse than police at certain real life incidents in their complete uselessness.

"We're not used to protecting princes from princes."

Alternate Viserys response: "How about SEPARATE THE CHILDREN."

[Denam_Pavel]

5 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

@butterweedstrover

Aemond was a child the same as the rest of them. Furthermore, the first blow was struck by Rhaenyra and Daemon's kids. On top of that, they drew a knife and used it AFTER blinding Aemond with sand, at which point he wasn't a threat. Not to mention the fact all Aemond had to hand was a rock and, if I recall the scene correctly, he spends more time holding it up threateningly than actually using it. Hell, at one point, he was flat on the ground, surrounded, and getting pummeled!

Yes, Aemond said some unwise things but from my perspective the Blacks kids were quite clearly more in the wrong there than him.

Especially, when you consider the fact that Rhaena isn't automatically entitled to Vhagar just because her mother rode it. Heck, if you look at the actual dialogue, Aemond in the beginning is a bit smug but he's hardly being rude when he says that Vhagar has a new rider and that if Rhaena wanted her that badly she shouldn't have waited.

Honestly, the idea that Aemond is in the wrong for hitting a girl AFTER said girl attacks him (along with her sister and two of her cousins!) strikes me as emblematic of everything wrong with the "can't hit a girl" mentality.

Now, if you said that, as the eldest, Aemond had a responsibility to de-esscalate the situation, then you might have a point but the fact of the matter is he was still a child regardless and the Blacks kids conducted themselves in a similarly bad, if not worse, manner.

"Your cousins can find you a pig to ride, it would suit you" is definitely rude. When he was holding up the rock threateningly he was also strangling a boy much young then he and saying "you will die screaming just like your father did." Aemond is the one where all the death threats are coming from.

Edited October 3, 2022 by Denam_Pavel

[C.T. Phipps]

Just now, Denam_Pavel said:

"Your cousins can find you a pig to ride, it would suit you" is definitely rude. When he was holding up the rock threateningly he was also strangling a boy much young then he and saying "you will die screaming just like your father did." Aemond is the one where all the deathsthreats are coming from.

He's not wrong about the dragon not belonging to them either since her mother "stole" it from the Targaryens herself in much the same way he did.

But he's the adult, he's insulting the children AT THEIR MOTHER'S FUNERAL, and he goes from 0 to 60 in terms of danger.

But it's 100% better than the book version that is probably the worst thing Martin ever wrote.

[The Grey Wolf Strikes Back]

Just now, C.T. Phipps said:

On my end, the Kings Guard looks worse than police at certain real life incidents in their complete uselessness.

"We're not used to protecting princes from princes."

Alternate Viserys response: "How about SEPARATE THE CHILDREN."

I think that has more to do with the fact that in Westeros security fluctuates based on the needs of the plot. Just look at how Sansa is subjected to hyper-surveillance in KL in an era rife with disappearances, imposters, dramatic escapes, etc. precisely because of things like minimal bureaucracy, a weak centralized government, long travel times and even slower information speed, etc.

As for the Kingsguard, I imagine they weren't there because they were sleeping. Didn't Ser Harrold say something about Ser Criston getting the night shift? And as for our favorite Kingmaker, he's only one guy at the end of the day. He can't guard or keep an eye on five kids who ought to each be sleeping in their own apartments. The fact of the matter is no one responded in a timely manner. Not the Kingsguard, not the household guard, not the parents, no one, and Aemond's eye paid the price.

[Ran]

5 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

But it's 100% better than the book version

The fight Martin describes feels like an actual mishap that little kids would get into. The show's version, with its older kids being involved for the most part, felt a bit more over the top and drawn out.

[The Grey Wolf Strikes Back]

@C.T. Phipps

Aemond isn't an adult in that scene, whether by our standards or even the standards of Westeros. He's less than ten years old. Around Bran's age in AGOT. That's what's supposed to give the scene its punch. A child has just been permanently maimed by OTHER children. If Aemond were truly an adult the scene (whether that be 16 in Westeros or 18 in the US) would be read like some comical revenge movie. 

[C.T. Phipps]

4 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

@C.T. Phipps

Aemond isn't an adult in that scene, whether by our standards or even the standards of Westeros. He's less than ten years old. Around Bran's age in AGOT. That's what's supposed to give the scene its punch. A child has just been permanently maimed by OTHER children. If Aemond were truly an adult the scene (whether that be 16 in Westeros or 18 in the US) would be read like some comical revenge movie. 

Is he less than ten in the show? He certainly doesn't appear so and the ages are different from the books. I'm fairly sure that he's closer to thirteen or so because he was born right after Aegon and before the ten year time skip.

Because in the books, he gets screwed over by a three year old in Martin's "the math doesn't add up" greatest example.

Edited October 3, 2022 by C.T. Phipps

[The Grey Wolf Strikes Back]

@Ran

Except 3yos don't act the way Joffrey does in that scene, nor would I expect a 5yo like Luke to be carrying a knife on his person, medieval times or not, when he's coming straight from bed. I honestly think things like this (not to mention GRRM's stated difficulty with POVs with Bran's) partly stem from the fact GRRM has no siblings or children so he doesn't actually have much personal experience to draw on when writing.

[EggBlue]

2 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

@butterweedstrover

Aemond was a child the same as the rest of them. Furthermore, the first blow was struck by Rhaenyra and Daemon's kids. On top of that, they drew a knife and used it AFTER blinding Aemond with sand, at which point he wasn't a threat. Not to mention the fact all Aemond had to hand was a rock and, if I recall the scene correctly, he spends more time holding it up threateningly than actually using it. Hell, at one point, he was flat on his back, surrounded, and getting pummeled!

Yes, Aemond said some unwise things but from my perspective the Blacks kids were quite clearly more in the wrong there than him.

Especially, when you consider the fact that Rhaena isn't automatically entitled to Vhagar just because her mother rode it. Heck, if you look at the actual dialogue, Aemond in the beginning is a bit smug but he's hardly being rude when he says that Vhagar has a new rider and that if Rhaena wanted her that badly she shouldn't have waited.

Honestly, the idea that Aemond is in the wrong for hitting a girl AFTER said girl attacks him (along with her sister and two of her cousins!) strikes me as emblematic of everything wrong with the "can't hit a girl" mentality.

Now, if you said that, as the eldest, Aemond had a responsibility to de-esscalate the situation, then you might have a point but the fact of the matter is he was still a child regardless and the Blacks kids conducted themselves in a similarly bad, if not worse, manner.

I largely agree with this . Aemond and little Luke were the obvious victims during that scene . and that's why we don't let kids have knives! they just swing it around and hurt each other after repeating their mothers' words

1 minute ago, C.T. Phipps said:

He's not wrong about the dragon not belonging to them either since her mother "stole" it from the Targaryens herself in much the same way he did.

But he's the adult, he's insulting the children AT THEIR MOTHER'S FUNERAL, and he goes from 0 to 60 in terms of danger.

But it's 100% better than the book version that is probably the worst thing Martin ever wrote.

I'm lost . who's the adult ? Aemond , Jace and twins are roughly the same age. 

 a better balance between the book and the show would have been to have Rhaena already there with Vhaegar (like Joff was in the book) and have Aemond hit her before claiming Vhaegar  (like in the book) . I've read the books and I was still worried about Aemond when they all fell on him punching him . I mean .. why? so he was a little smug after riding the most badass dragon in the world after being mocked for being dragonless for years .. and repeats his mom's unwise words after being attacked .so what?!  the rest isn't bad . but in the book Jace was being brutally hit (instead of sand business) when Luke goes to defend him . so it makes more sense. 

20 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I also liked the idea she may start an affair with Aemond to have his bastards.

yeah , they could totally pull a Aegon-Naerys_Aemon there! and hopefully they won't make Aemond a full scale Daemon.

[The Grey Wolf Strikes Back]

@C.T. Phipps

I'm not sure the ages are different for Alicent's children but Aemond definitely still comes after Helaena, who was born pre-timeskip, and hasn't hit puberty.

Just to be clear, I'm pretty sure only Aegon and Helaena were born before the jump so Aemond at most is 9 or 10.

Edited October 3, 2022 by The Grey Wolf Strikes Back

[The Grey Wolf Strikes Back]

Am I the only one who gets Freudian vibes from Aemond x Alys?

Dude falls for a Strong bastard who is roughly his mother's age and, again like his mother, looks younger than her years. Heck, if Alicent is dark-haired in canon (which I doubt we'll ever know) that's another similarity!

Edited October 3, 2022 by The Grey Wolf Strikes Back

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

39 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I'm curious what you'd define as a "better" character?

I wish they had made her more likeable in the traditional sense, in the vein of young Alicent.

[C.T. Phipps]

I mean he's clearly post-pubescent since they're discussing sex with Helaena.

But that's just my take.

 

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, C.T. Phipps said:

But it's 100% better than the book version that is probably the worst thing Martin ever wrote.

Yeah, a three-year-old being described as 'an early riser' and actually challenging his ten-year-old uncle is just utter nonsense. Joffrey Velaroyn should be barely able to speak, should have no clear concept of '(dragon) property', and shouldn't have the gull of actually challenging his uncle who is seven (!) years older than him, meaning he's an actual giant to the little one.

At best, Joffrey would have stood there confused about what Aemond was doing.

5 minutes ago, Ran said:

The fight Martin describes feels like an actual mishap that little kids would get into. The show's version, with its older kids being involved for the most part, felt a bit more over the top and drawn out.

LOL, no. It feels like a badly written scene. The only fun thing there were the dragon droppings, the rest is nonsense. And it would have been so easy to make this make a tidbit more sense if Jace had been the one to start the quarrel, not little Joffrey.

Or, you know, to move this event to a later date. Or make the children older by making Rhaenyra older, etc.

4 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

@Ran

Except 3yos don't act the way Joffrey does in that scene, nor would I expect a 5yo like Luke to be carrying a knife on his person, medieval times or not, when he's coming straight from bed. I honestly think things like this (not to mention GRRM's stated difficulty with POVs with Bran's) partly stem from the fact GRRM has no siblings or children so he doesn't actually have much personal experience to draw on when writing.

George may have no children, but he does have two sisters and nephews and nieces (presumably both, I'm not sure). Still, though, he doesn't seem to have a good grasp on what little children (usually) do at what age.

3 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

Am I the only one who gets Freudian vibes from Aemond x Alys?

Dude falls for a Strong bastard who is roughly his mother's age and, again like his mother, looks younger than her years. Heck, if Alicent is dark-haired in canon (which I doubt we'll ever know) that's another similarity!

I'd imagine that Alys Rivers is going to be an actual character in the show, not some kind of exotic femme fatale witch cliché. Aemond does seem to have a deeper side, meaning their relationship might be more than weirdo physical attraction. At least on his side.