[Spoilers] Episode 107 Discussion

[The Grey Wolf Strikes Back]

@Corvinus85

Cregan's uncle was refusing to give up his authority as regent despite Cregan reaching the age of majority. Eventually, Cregan rebelled and had his uncle + said uncle's three sons imprisoned.

I totally agree that we should see a glimpse of the tensions at court being mirrored by the realm at large but I don't think that's likely to happen.

[Ran]

2 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

@Ran

Except 3yos don't act the way Joffrey does in that scene, nor would I expect a 5yo like Luke to be carrying a knife on his person, medieval times or not,

Yes, 3 year olds can and do act possessively about things and are perfectly capable of getting into fights.

Yes, there are examples of small knives worn by children in the era. They were utensils, not weapons, but they can still take out an eye.

2 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

when he's coming straight from bed.

They got dressed. Let me refer back to The Lion in Winter.

2 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

I honestly think things like this (not to mention GRRM's stated difficulty with POVs with Bran's) partly stem from the fact GRRM has no siblings or children so he doesn't actually have much personal experience to draw on when writing.

He was presumably a child once who played with other children, and did not spring forth fully formed from the head of Zeus. As someone who has nieces and saw them when young, nothing here is really surprising to me personally. We're all savage little primates when we're that age.

Little kids of about that age are shooting one another by accident in this day and age, frankly. To me, the main thing that they did wrong is change the scenario so it was Jace who pulled the knife and tried to attack Aemond with it and then it gets knocked out of his hand and Luke takes it up, whereas in the book it's Luke who pulls the knife and in the moment gets Aemond. It feels much less pre-meditated, a little kid reacting. Jace was actually being kind of wildly aggressive, going after Aemond with it repeatedly, it wasn't a one-and-done thing.

3 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

Am I the only one who gets Freudian vibes from Aemond x Alys?

 

Not in the book, but I was talking to Linda about it on the show and the way they're maybe throwing sexual perversions into the mix, and it crossed my mind that they might actually play that out on the show, that Aemond has an Oedipal complex kind of thing going. We'll have to wait and see.

 

On a completely separate note, not sure I've seen praise for the score. I thought the opening theme for the funeral was very stirring and beautiful work from Djawadi.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

19 minutes ago, Ran said:

The fight Martin describes feels like an actual mishap that little kids would get into.

I've been around three-year-olds, and no, there is absolutely no way something like that would happen in reality.

Edited October 3, 2022 by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy

[C.T. Phipps]

1 minute ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I've been around three-year-olds, and no, there is absolutely no way something like that would happen in reality.

It is absolutely utterly ridiculous age wise.

[Ran]

9 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I've been around three-year-olds, and no, there is absolutely no way something like that would happen in reality.

I guess you don't know the three-year-old I've known? They can have tantrums. They can kick and bite and punch. They will fight if they are feeling like it. Here's Pampers providing useful advice about toddlers and pre-school kids who are prone to violence:

Quote

A certain amount of pushing, grabbing, and even punching is normal when young children get together. Most of the time it's nothing to worry about. Injuries are few; disputes are soon forgotten.

Some toddlers and preschoolers, however, get into repeated and escalating tussles. For them, aggression becomes their main approach to coping with almost any situation. They're not bullies; in fact, they sometimes pick hopeless fights with children who are much larger and older than they are. In some children this aggressiveness appears to be biological. As toddlers and preschoolers, their developing nervous systems do not seem to let them control their impulses as much as their age mates do. With others, it's more a matter of their needing to learn and practice social skills.

ETA: Are people confused about what exactly Joffrey did? He had woken up to go look at his own dragon, saw Aemond with Vhagar, and shouted at him to stay away from her. Aemond told him to shut up and shoved him into a pile of dragon droppings. Joffrey bawls and runs to his brothers. They're waiting for Aemond when he gets back, and the older boys lead the way in grabbing wooden swords to use as cudgels. Joffrey apparently tries to whack Aemond and all we're told is that Joffrey loses the weapon to Aemond almost immediately.

It's Luke, not Joff, who stabs Aemond.

Edited October 3, 2022 by Ran

[TormundsWoman]

1 hour ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

I thought Daemon was snickering at Vaemond Velayron's not so veiled remarks about Rhaenyra and "Laenor's" children.  He could hear the complaints and accusations of bastardy in Vaemond's glowing words spoken about what it means to be of House Velayron in relation to Laena and HER Velaryon children.  I took it as Daemon hearing it as a comparison and that he couldn't help but laugh at Vaemond's crassness in using Laena's funeral to get these veiled insults on record.  Hell, I suppose that is the main reason the writers had Vaemond deliver the remarks.  Still, I want to rewatch it (should I have the time, barely have the time to post, much less rewatch) to get the full gist of it.  These were my initial thoughts, though.

I think on the whole the same as you.

It also was good to see Vaemond trying to advance these ideas because it will set up the fallout of who is heir for the Velaryons (from the book).

These things that Vaemond says about bloodlines and Rhaenyra’s kids not being Valeryons by blood make Vaemond’s entire claim to Driftmark in F&B. Of course it never crosses his mind that Leana’s daughters are next in line even if Rhaenyra’s kids are discounted. 
 

Which brings back the theme of women being passed over for men:

I wonder how Rhaenys would feel if Corlys would make his peace with this and gifted all possessions to Vaemond by naming him his heir. Bet that she’d suddenly fight tooth and nail just like her husband is for a piece of what he sees as her inheritance that was taken away from her.

[The Grey Wolf Strikes Back]

@C.T. Phipps

I'm not sure you have to be post-pubescent to be aware of sex in a medieval society like Westeros. I mean, you'd see the horses, dogs, etc. getting it on from a young age after all. Plus, I don't remember them actually discussing intimacy.

[Back in Black-Snow]

Daemon laughed at the funeral when the orator was talking about their pure blood. Could he have been thinking about Rhaenyra there, and her kids?

His object of desire, what he always wanted (in my opinion).

[C.T. Phipps]

1 minute ago, Back in Black-Snow said:

Daemon laughed at the funeral when the orator was talking about their pure blood. Could he have been thinking about Rhaenyra there, and her kids?

His object of desire, what he always wanted (in my opinion).

It was clearly Corlys' brother planning to seize Driftmark for his own heirs.

[Darryk]

What an incredible episode. This show has got me hook, line and sinker. It can do no wrong in my eyes.

To think people were so unenthused about it beforehand. 

[Darryk]

57 minutes ago, Ran said:

Yes, there are examples of small knives worn by children in the era. They were utensils, not weapons, but they can still take out an eye.

Interestingly Matt Easton just did a video about how everyone carried knives in the Middle Ages.

[Raja]

18 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

What is it with these rushed episode endings?

Felt this too. I think the pacing is all over the place, and it's true for multiple episodes.

As an aside, read this from an AV club review of the show and I think it really gets to my frustrations with this show when compared to some of my favourite ones

Quote

Perhaps the greatest strength of Game Of Thrones was its ability to build whole worlds behind almost every member of its sprawling cast—and it’s one that House Of The Dragon consistently fails to deliver on

You particularly feel this with the scene between Corlys & Rhaenys, who cannot seem to have a scene exploring who they are as opposed to just conversations about her being passed over.

Edited October 3, 2022 by Raja

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

8 minutes ago, Darryk said:

What an incredible episode. This show has got me hook, line and sinker. It can do no wrong in my eyes.

To think people were so unenthused about it beforehand. 

It's far from perfect, but I think it's as good as a show based on a few hundred pages of background material to a fantasy series can be. 

[Elaena Targaryen]

Loved the episode! Big fan of young Aemond! Love all the characters, their motivations and interactions.

I've enjoyed reading the show discussion here very much. I just wanted to add I liked the parallel between Rhaenyra and Cat. They were both cut by the same dagger protecting their children. 

[SeanF]

18 minutes ago, Darryk said:

Interestingly Matt Easton just did a video about how everyone carried knives in the Middle Ages.

Medieval European societies were a lot more violent than their modern counterparts, because the typical inhabitant was a 19 year old who carried a weapon, or had access to a farm implement  that could be used as a weapon, and who could easily obtain alcohol.

That violence would permeate down to younger children.

Far from being banned, such societies usually required men (including serfs) to carry weapons and undergo military training.  They didn’t need standing armies, because the population was militarised.

[Back in Black-Snow]

1 hour ago, C.T. Phipps said:

It was clearly Corlys' brother planning to seize Driftmark for his own heirs.

I can see that now that you mentioned it. Makes sense.

[sifth]

1 hour ago, Ran said:

I guess you don't know the three-year-old I've known? They can have tantrums. They can kick and bite and punch. They will fight if they are feeling like it. Here's Pampers providing useful advice about toddlers and pre-school kids who are prone to violence:

 

I've worked with 3 year olds for a living. I currently teach 4 to 5 year olds. They very much don't act like that. The age very much is ridiculous, 3 year olds don't fight, at least not like the way it was described in the novel. Even when angered, which doesn't happen often, unless they have special needs.

I've said it for years, one major flaw in this series, is GRRM just doesn't understand the way children think and act. I over look a lot of it though, because it's a fantasy world though. I do find the way Rickson acts to be ridiculous at times. 

Edited October 3, 2022 by sifth

[Darryk]

32 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

It's far from perfect, but I think it's as good as a show based on a few hundred pages of background material to a fantasy series can be. 

It's much better than that.

It's brought the characters and events of the book to life in a way that 's just mesmerizing. The HOTD writers had a much tougher job adapting this than D+D had with GoT, as they had to write their own dialogue and work off a very rough outline that the book provided.

And damn are they doing a great job. Just imagine if these guys had been in charge of the last few seasons of GoT.

[Ingelheim]

Martin himself has said many times that he made Jon, Daenerys, Arya, Sansa, etc all too young to begin with. They should have been at least 5 years older each, considering the original plan for a time jump. Daenerys is conquering cities at 15, Jon Snow is LC at 17, etc. Those are not reasonable ages at all, even in medieval ages.

I always thought the way Martin described the brawls between the kids to be quite absurd. It made more sense in the show because all the actors are older than their characters.

Edited October 3, 2022 by Ingelheim

[BlackLightning]

3 hours ago, Rockroi said:

Justice . . . It cannot be avoided merely because its messy.  

If justice is messy, is it really justice? Or is it vengeance disguised.

The whole point of justice is to resolve an issue, give everyone what they deserve and maintain peace.

3 hours ago, Rockroi said:

I think Aegon gave the best answer for this- everyone knows.  Alicent did not tell everyone; it was deduced.  The fact that Alicent told them or did not does NOT rectify the underlying action nor does it forgive the attack (mostly- there is a concept in the law call "fighting words" but its very scaled back from something like this).  

And two can play at this game- by contrast Rhaenyra is also "partially responsible" for, you know, having bastards in the first place.  

Aegon was clearly lying.

The way that Aegon responded to being named as the person who told Aemond and the way that these scenes were shot with Alicent quietly panicking in the background tells us all that we need to know.

The kids learned it from Alicent.

Alicent should have never told them that. And yes, it does rectify the underlying action. Because her husband and king had already forbidden her from talking about it...on more than one occasion. She disobeyed a direct order. And for her to peddle such information to children is dangerous and irresponsible.

Yes, Rhaenyra is not innocent; she too is partially responsible for being such a moron. But regardless of whether it is Laenor who fathers children on Rhaenyra or if Alicent is telling truth, to tell these types of things to the royal children with the express purpose of preparing them to usurp their elder half-sibling (who happens to be the rightful heir) is high treason.

3 hours ago, Rockroi said:

History would disagree with you.  The books would disagree with you. Robert Baratheon would disagree with you; the paths of the books would disagree with you.  The little girl sitting in Pentose today will, literally, burn your city to the ground tomorrow if you do not do something about it.  That literally happened.  These people know that unresolved bastards hanging around are a threat to the stability of a monarchy which relies HEAVILY on the underlying stability therein.  

People in such societies use pretenders all the time to challenge established and not-so established dynasties in order to improve their own lot.  The stories of Westeroes society relies heavily on this process; it was not invented by Maegor nor an aberration due solely to him.  Its the virus that kills dynasties.  Sometimes literally. 

This is nonsense. You ruined your own argument.

You wanna know how? Because we all know that the little girl sitting in Pentos would not have burned any cities to the ground if she would've been left alone. But no, people and their guilty consciences and wicked imaginations had to get themselves riled up...so they sent an assassin after her only for the assassin to fail. So because she survived an assassination attempt and she knows who sent the assassin after her, now she WILL burn cities to the ground.

Ultimately, you cannot force Aegon to betray and challenge Rhaenyra if he refuses to do so.

The obvious solution to this whole issue is to make sure that all of Viserys' children and grandchildren become really good friends and develop a deep respect and trust for each other.

You get more flies with honey than with vinegar.