[Spoilers] Episode 107 Discussion

[C.T. Phipps]

5 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Ultimately, you cannot force Aegon to betray and challenge Rhaenyra if he refuses to do so.

The obvious solution to this whole issue is to make sure that all of Viserys' children and grandchildren become really good friends and develop a deep respect and trust for each other.

You get more flies with honey than with vinegar.

I mean, that would fail due to the fact that Otto's ACTUAL motivation is to get his grandson on the throne.

He's convinced himself he wants peace but if he wanted peace, he wouldn't have betrayed Rhaenyra and the Realm.

 

Edited October 3, 2022 by C.T. Phipps

[Minsc]

2 hours ago, Denam_Pavel said:

"Your cousins can find you a pig to ride, it would suit you" is definitely rude.

To be fair, that was likely more directed to Jace and Luc who had just done a similar stunt to him.  IIRC, he was directly staring down Jace when saying that.

[Lord Varys]

LOL, guys, it is ridiculous to defend Aemond incident scene as written by George. It is irrelevant whether 'this can happen with some super special three-year-old' ... the fact remains that this it is an exceedingly unlikely scenario, and one George should have better not written.

There are good ways to write children ... and there are bad ways. And that's clearly a bad way, one that almost borders on the comical.

One would also add that nothing in Joffrey Velaryon's character - the character we later meet when George bothers developing the children to a degree - indicates he would ever have behaved in such a manner. He was a dutiful and obedient boy who always did as his elders told him. There were no tantrums there, no weird behavior, and his ony, quite fatal, defiance is over the safety of his own dragons ... and the other dragons of House Targaryen.

And, no, there is not the slightest indication it could possibly make sense that the toddler Joffrey viewed Vhagar as the dragon 'of his family'. Joffrey had had NO CONTACT with his Targaryen uncles, growing up on Dragonstone with his brothers. Prior to the funeral he may not have even met Aemond (or Aegon or Helaena or Daeron), nor would he have interacted (much) with the dragon of his aunt Laena.

This would have made sense if Jace had been the guy to start the quarrel, but not Joffrey. Joff informing his brothers that something happened in the dragonyard may make some sense at first glance, but even that's ridiculous, since three-year-olds usually are not silent enough to not wake servants and retainers when going about the castle. In fact, the fact that the boy supposedly found his way down to the dragons is somewhat of a stretch - he doesn't live at High Tide, so how does he get out? Does he have keys to open the outer doors who are likely, you know, closed during the night? And how does he reach a door handle? Or are there no doors between his room and the yard (if so - what the hell?!)

In fact, it makes no sense that Joffrey could get close to the dragons all by himself - those are dangerous beasts, somebody should oversee them. They were at High Tide, so there should be Velaryon servants, men-at-arms, and retainers all over the place.

Although that's also kind of a problem in the episode. The empty castle. There is no way that Baela and Rhaena could have gotten to the boys without their servants and tutors noticing. Pretending that Criston Cole is the only guy keeping watch is quite ridiculous, especially in light of how many people there are later in the hall. Where the hell where they earlier?

Although, of course, the show is again much better than George by putting Vhagar outside the castle, having Aemond search him out in the night (i.e. never going to bed), and keeping the toddler out of the entire episode.

[ShadowKitteh]

4 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

Dragons of flesh weaving dragons of thread. Is this a reference to the calling of banners for both sides? I've been trying to think what else it could mean.

I think the show is going with Helaena as having The Sight.

In Ep6 she says that "He's done it again." [Aemond] regarding going down into the rookery of the Dragon Pit before he says anything. Then when Alicent tells Aemond that he "will have a dragon." Helaena says, "He'll have to close an eye." predicting the loss of his left eye in Ep7.

Earlier in Ep7 when she's playing with the spider she says,

"Hand turns loom; spool of green, spool of black; dragons of flesh weaving dragons of thread." Different factions of the same House of Targaryen taking shape, and later that night the children basically begin the Dance where Aemond closes an eye and gains a dragon.

 

Edited October 3, 2022 by ShadowKitteh

[Lord Varys]

By the way - why the hell do they pronounce 'Lucerys' in a way that would imply the nickname there should be 'Luce' rather than 'Luke'. 'Jace' gives us an inclination how you should pronounce 'Jacaerys', and the same is true for 'Luke' and 'Lucerys'.

[RumHam]

12 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

If that is what they wanted that is what they would have showed. Instead the dead guard was burnt as false proof which Daemon would have been in charge of. 
 

But then you headcanon isn’t going to add moral ambiguity around team Rhaenyra being the good guys as always.

It's not headcanon, I just misunderstood. 

I'm tired of having this "good guys" conversation. Whether a character is "good" or not has little to do with which side they're on. I don't know why you keep thinking about it like this is Lord of the Rings or Star Wars and one side is totally 100% evil. 

[RumHam]

1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

how you should pronounce 'Jacaerys'

Very carefully, if there's a dragon around and you don't wanna risk someone getting immolated. 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

By the way - why the hell do they pronounce 'Lucerys' in a way that would imply the nickname there should be 'Luce' rather than 'Luke'.

I guess you could say that he's a Luce Cannon, given that he's maiming people and stuff.

[nara]

 

6 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

No he's not. Aemond wasn't born in the last episode before the 10 year time jump. So Aemond is at most 11-12. Jace is almost his age.

I don’t think so. Aemond is not a man grown but he’s at least 3 years older than Jace in the show (4 in the book) based on how old he was when Rhaenyra got married.

4 hours ago, SeanF said:

You'd think Sansa would have the wit to have waited until Cersei (who would love nothing more than to get Sansa in the Black Cells for some quality time together) was dead, before trying to put Daenerys underground.

In all fairness, Dany intended to destroy Winterfell and perhaps Sansa had an instinct that Dany was more dangerous and competent than Cersei.

[EggBlue]

22 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

By the way - why the hell do they pronounce 'Lucerys' in a way that would imply the nickname there should be 'Luce' rather than 'Luke'. 'Jace' gives us an inclination how you should pronounce 'Jacaerys', and the same is true for 'Luke' and 'Lucerys'.

why would it imply that? ! I've always read it with c in the middle. sounds better and can be pronounced easier .

8 minutes ago, nara said:

 

I don’t think so. Aemond is not a man grown but he’s at least 3 years older than Jace in the show (4 in the book) based on how old he was when Rhaenyra got married.

nope. goes like this: Aegon> Haelena > Aemond> Jace/Baella/Rhaena > Luke 

8 minutes ago, nara said:

In all fairness, Dany intended to destroy Winterfell and perhaps Sansa had an instinct that Dany was more dangerous and competent than Cersei.

when ?! 

[Ingelheim]

27 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

By the way - why the hell do they pronounce 'Lucerys' in a way that would imply the nickname there should be 'Luce' rather than 'Luke'. 'Jace' gives us an inclination how you should pronounce 'Jacaerys', and the same is true for 'Luke' and 'Lucerys'.

Well, Aemond's actor actually called Aegon "Agon" hahaha

It seems to me they are having some problems with names

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

4 minutes ago, Ingelheim said:

Well, Aemond's actor actually called Aegon "Agon" hahaha

It seems to me they are having some problems with names

Several actors pronounce it that way. I think it comes from Ryan Condal, because that's how he pronounces it.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

3 hours ago, TormundsWoman said:

I think on the whole the same as you.

It also was good to see Vaemond trying to advance these ideas because it will set up the fallout of who is heir for the Velaryons (from the book).

These things that Vaemond says about bloodlines and Rhaenyra’s kids not being Valeryons by blood make Vaemond’s entire claim to Driftmark in F&B. Of course it never crosses his mind that Leana’s daughters are next in line even if Rhaenyra’s kids are discounted. 
 

Which brings back the theme of women being passed over for men:

I wonder how Rhaenys would feel if Corlys would make his peace with this and gifted all possessions to Vaemond by naming him his heir. Bet that she’d suddenly fight tooth and nail just like her husband is for a piece of what he sees as her inheritance that was taken away from her.

Yes, Vaemond was basically alluding to most everything that was alluded to last week, when it wasn't said outright, LOL  Having read that the show seems it will follow the book in regard to Vaemond and perhaps the Silent Five (?), it's a good setup for the claim to Driftmark, and of course Vaemond leaves out the girls.  As you say, the theme of women being passed over for men is shown.  It makes me wonder if that is Vaemond's natural tendency or further proof of his own self interest.  Probably both.  I have to say, though, the actor has brought Vaemond to life just as well as all the rest of the performers for House Velaryon.  This episode made me really miss the idea of seeing more of them.  All of them, all ages.  

Ah, interesting questions on different scenarios for Rhaenys and Corlys, but now I'd have to choose which version to try them all out on, book or show.  Add in an offer to marry one of the girls to Vaemond or one of his sons and we'd have yet another possible layer.  I am looking forward to seeing how things evolve between the Rhaenys and Corlys and how the show changes might take us different places than we'd expect as readers.   

HA:  Found this on Twitter.  I guess we weren't the only ones to translate Vaemond's eulogy, so to speak.  

 

[nara]

3 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

 

when ?! 

My bad. She intends to go from Dorne to Winterfell, etc and break the wheel and liberate anyone. Given that she destroyed KL, my assumed that she would do the same to Winterfell. Arya, John and Tyrion all had the same look of fear when she made that speech.

[dsjj251]

6 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

This doesn’t really work. Mushroom is part of the story and his version has a bit of truth just like everyone else’s.  
 

 No, we are point blank told in story some of these characters couldnt possibly know what they know because they are on the other side of the continent when things happen, so at best, you argument is that some things Mushroom says could be true, but some are clearly outright lies and his own opinions, but in the context of the story, no one would be writing down the opinions of a fool. 

You are choosing to believe Rhaenyra was jealous of Alicent being skinnier than here, which honestly makes no sense, but go at it. 

 

Quote

But this is what the book gives us, the book does not however make the slightest hint of the opposite which is what the show is running with.

Again, not the opposite, and not even what the book argues. 


 

Quote

It doesn’t matter why, it matters that the emotional dynamic between them has been reversed.

Again,  your argument is based on a line in the book that is from a fool. 

 

Quote

We know from the first five episodes that Alicent didn’t want to steal Rhaenyra’s throne and would only do it to protect her children. 

The book doesn’t give us a reason why she wanted Aegon on throne. Was it for her own personal power or to protect his life? 
 

The show did a 180 and made it all about Alicent’s personal ambition which wasn’t developed before hand.

Rhaenyra has never once in the show or book threatened Aegon, Helaena , or Aemond before the dance happened. And to quote you "it doesnt matter why" LOL, we dont need the reason Alicent did it, we simply know she did it and it didnt start the night Viserys died. 

Also, it cant be a 180 if you dont know the original reasoning. 

 

Quote

Like I just want her to have flaws so Alicent’s position seems morally viable. 
 

 

The only way that Alicent's argument would be morally viable would indeed be if Rhaenyra wanted  her kids dead.


 

Quote

Alicent must have some reason to want the throne that makes her side sympathetic besides muh power because otherwise the story will be one sided.

Again, In the books, its one sided, we are indeed told the Blacks are the good guys , and its overwhelmingly so. 
 

[C.T. Phipps]

I mean the books allude to the fact that Daemon is a rampaging psychopath.

The Blacks do a lot of terrible things but it's mostly Daemon.

Which is fine.

Not every side needs to be evenly spread out.

[TheValonqarThatWasAzorAhai]

22 hours ago, RumHam said:

I thought she trapped it, but I do have to go back and listen to what she was saying. I thought maybe a prophecy about Varys, but who knows.

They can't have her dreams be actually useful to the greens, so I assume most will hint at Game of Thrones or Dunk and Egg or other stuff. I really hope she comes into her own when she gets Dreamfyre though, and just wants nothing to do with the game of thrones or her brother. 

I don’t know if this has been posted or not, but she said, “Hand turns loom, Spool is green, Spool of black, Dragons of flesh weaving Dragons of thread”.

[Caligula_K3]

I think as the season goes on, and I enjoy parts of every episode but get less and less enthused about the show as a whole, I'm starting to realize why it's not working for me.

Forget Game of Thrones. This show should be HBO's Rome... with Dragons! That show also had to deal with plenty of time skips. That show was also about civil war between two sides that ultimately had a lot of morally grey and often unsympathetic characters. And it was also an adaption of an incredibly complex historical period with tons of people involved in events (well, this time a real historical period with real people.)

But Rome was fun! It got you invested in those characters because they had life and charm and different values that you could partially sympathize with and which led to all sorts of interesting conflicts at a macro and micro level. And it prioritized certain characters over the course of those time skips, which sure, meant leaving many others out of the historical record, but also meant that you had consistent and elaborate character arcs. Finally, Rome had stakes: it had character stakes, because you cared about them, despite their flaws, and it also had stakes in that you saw what the civil war meant for people at all levels of society.

I think, ultimately, that's what this show needs: a focus on characters, a variety in tone, and stakes. Right now, four characters get focus, and everyone else is ancillary to the plot. The tone is consistently dour, making it hard to get attached to anyone, because they also don't stand for anything. And the stakes haven't evolved much beyond "should person A or B be ruler?"

Basically, to cut all my bullshit short, this show needs a Titus Pullo and Marc Antony and Atia to be in there, and to get as much development and attentions as its Caesar and Pompey.

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, nara said:

My bad. She intends to go from Dorne to Winterfell, etc and break the wheel and liberate anyone. Given that she destroyed KL, my assumed that she would do the same to Winterfell. Arya, John and Tyrion all had the same look of fear when she made that speech.

For sure, by that stage, Sansa had made herself a target.  She’d struck at the Queen and she’d missed.

[The Bard of Banefort]

The bigger question for three-year-old Joffrey is how he managed to get past his guards unnoticed not once, but three times (first to confront Aemond, second to get his brothers, third to bring them back with him).