[Spoilers] Episode 107 Discussion

[C.T. Phipps]

1 hour ago, Happy Ent said:

We know from contemporary sources that the House of the Dragon source is conceived in time of ideological strife, where writers had to skirt certain narrative taboos, such as the killing of characters then called “of colour,” and an unwillingness to display homosexual characters as morally deficient. It is through this lens that the veracity of the Qarl–Leanor source needs to be understood. The authors of the present source would have been strongly disincentivised from having a gay man kill the remaining token black dude for money; as unacceptable as having Lhaena die of childbed fever instead of dragonfire, or of showing characters depicted by male European actors exhibit bravery, integrity, or intelligence

This seems a dishonest portrayal as they did kill multiple chaarcters of color and gay men. Frankly, you could argue they just want to avoid repeating the same beats. Why have Daemon murder Laenor when he's already killed his wife? Why have yet another lover of Laenor kill or be killed? It's why Criston Cole beats a man to death at the tournament.

And the Velaryon House is going to certainly have a bunch of black men have their tongues removed next episode.

[Lord Varys]

32 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

One may wonder if we wouldn't have gotten a still worse image of them if we had seen a chronicle from the black side. In Aemond's case even the best of the propagandists couldn't make look good someone who murders thirteen year old nephews and spends half the war burning commoners for the sake of it.

Aemond also killed all the Strongs for pretty much no reason. You cannot really put the guy in a positive light ... even if you wanted to, for which nobody would have any good reason.

32 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

But it's worth noting that the Hightowers themselves receive a fairly good treatment. I would be very interested in knowing how it's possible that most of their own bannermen turned against them (Beesbury, Costayne and Mullendore are black, we don't hear about Bulwers and Cuys participating in the war). It's entirely possible that Ormund and his father had been pieces of shit.

One imagines that Lyman Beesbury was the main reason for that. He served so long on the Small Council that he must have been well-connected, especially in his own region. His descendants and other kin might have been closely intermarried with quite a few of the Hightower bannermen.

Ormund had the good sense to stay out of the shitshow until the Greens really implored them ... and the thing got a life of its own.

32 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

Orwyle wrote his memories under the auspices of the Hand Tyland Lannister, another green. At that time, the regents were Unwin Peake (green), Roland Westerling (green), Manfryd Mooton (originally black, then green), Torrhen Manderly (black), and Munkun (from Oldtown). Those are the men that Orwyle really wanted to ingratiate with in order to save his skin. Not an eleven year old boy.

That is not completely true. The king is still the king. And he tried to suck up to Aegon III specifically, who freed him during the Winter Fever episode. It didn't work out in the end, of course, but we cannot just assume that Orwyle would write a confession that basically praised Aegon II and his cronies ... the king in whose name he would be tried and executed was Aegon III, Rhaenyra's son. And his government were now all in camp Aegon III - especially, as we know, Tyland Lannister.

Orwyle was directly involved in the murder of Aegon II, apparently providing Larys and Corlys with the poison they used. He is perfectly connected to his old Green buddy Tyland Lannister, but the allegiances of both have changed. Orwyle even helped to murder his king, and Tyland became a stalwart supporter of Aegon III as soon as he returned from Essos.

32 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

His portrayal of the Green Council is almost comical. How he starts by making it clear that he initially wanted to crown Rhaenyra, how he insists that they discussed at length about legality and precedent (presenting only the arguments of one side), how he insists that the blacks are legitimately afraid of Daemon and Rhaenyra killing them once they get the throne, how Orwyle doesn't intervene in the debate until the end when a decision is already taken, how Tyland keeps a low-profile... we can be assured that the real council was very different from that.

Eustace's account is pretty much the same - it just moves some of Orwyle's alleged arguments to Beesbury.

 

[Roughspun]

I think Helaena was played as autistic.

[Ran]

2 minutes ago, Roughspun said:

I think Helaena was played as autistic.

That's sort of how I read her. Somewhere on that spectrum. She seems to have a similar aversion to being touched, that's the main thing.

[RumHam]

10 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Not everyone on the good side are ‘good’. 
 

I mean they are on the right side which removes nuance from the conflict.

I'm curious did you feel the same way about the main novels? I don't think anyone would argue the Lannisters were on the right side. It didn't stop me for rooting for a couple of them.   

29 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

I had a dream Harwin Strong is still alive. 

Did he survive the fire because I think they showed him escaping the fire in a cloak. 

Didn't debris fall on him? If I remember right the guy in the cloak at the end was one of Larys's tongueless minions. 

[BlackLightning]

52 minutes ago, Tywin's Wallet said:

 it just occurred to me that there was talk of gold when Daemon was talking to Qarl. I wonder maybe there is a little foreshadow that Laenor will be in business with the Rogare bank (maybe as a partner or investor). That could be a way. 

Absolutely. Although I would prefer it for Laenor to be called back to Westeros after Rhaenyra takes the Iron Throne so that he can take his place as the first of her two husbands.

If we have Laenor and/or Qarl in Lys involved with the Rogare Bank, then that means that Viserys gets saved much earlier which probably cuts the narrative/dramatic need for a lengthy Regency in half.

[EggBlue]

18 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Absolutely. Although I would prefer it for Laenor to be called back to Westeros after Rhaenyra takes the Iron Throne so that he can take his place as the first of her two husbands.

I think that'll be a good idea . it'll be more understandable for people to call her Maegor if she openly runs her court with two kings . later on , Laenor could deal with Tumbleton and Alyn could be a cousin who gets Driftmark by marrying Baella as lady of Driftmark . I'll miss Addam though .

 

[BlackLightning]

Just now, EggBlue said:

I think that'll be a good idea . it'll be more understandable for people to call her Maegor if she openly runs her court with two kings . later on , Laenor could deal with Tumbleton and Alyn could be a cousin who gets Driftmark by marrying Baella as lady of Driftmark . I'll miss Addam though .

 

Addam and Laenor can coexist. In fact, they literally did. Why does everyone think that they cannot coexist?

Is it about the dragon? Just create another dragon and give it some random name and make it so that Addam claims Barney for himself.

Alyn and Addam were supposed to be Corlys' baseborn sons anyway.

[Corvinus85]

9 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Addam and Laenor can coexist. In fact, they literally did. Why does everyone think that they cannot coexist?

Is it about the dragon? Just create another dragon and give it some random name and make it so that Addam claims Barney for himself.

Alyn and Addam were supposed to be Corlys' baseborn sons anyway.

Officially, they're supposed to be Laenor's baseborn sons, but most people don't really believe that and they suspect Corlys is the father.

[EggBlue]

15 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Addam and Laenor can coexist. In fact, they literally did. Why does everyone think that they cannot coexist?

LOL. they did coexist , I haven't forgotten ! for me , it's about the role . what will be Laenor's role if Addam does what he does in the book? besides ,  Corlys brought Hull boys because he either wanted his remaining sons/grandkids to be with him after losing both his children and his wife ,or he was desperate for a male heir . with Laenor in the picture , there's no need of that and Corlys can't name the boys Laenor's to avoid disrespecting Rhaenys's memory . unless ,of course, they are actually Laenor's ! 

 

[Lord Varys]

If Laenor returns, there are a number of ways he could be used:

1. To create friction at the Black court if Corlys/Rhaenys haven't been told about what actually transpired.

2. To have an additional dragonrider at Rook's Rest, since I think they might play up that conflict some more.

3. To play more or less the role of Addam of Hull - then his motivation to raise an army all by himself could be that either Hugh or Ulf was his new lover, and he feels personally horribly betrayed by the guy, especially if he had also be the guy to earlier vouch for the man in front of Rhaenyra.

As stand-in for Addam, Laenor could die the way Addam did at Tumbleton. If he gets his own exit then he could die either at Rook's Rest or in the Battle of the Gullet. They would have to make it so that only the rider dies but the dragon survives and returns, but that's easily doable. At Rook's Rest he could suffer horrible burns from Sunfyre's flames, say, and in the Gullet some lucky shots of the sailors 'aiming for the rider' could leave him with lethal wounds.

But as I said - they don't have to bring him back. But if they don't, they must tell our guys that he is dead somehow, or else Addam claiming Seasmoke will be weird.

[RumHam]

4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But as I said - they don't have to bring him back. But if they don't, they must tell our guys that he is dead somehow, or else Addam claiming Seasmoke will be weird.

I asked this once before, but has the name "Seasmoke" even been said on the show? If Addam is introduced and claimed a dragon 90% of the audience will not question it. Plus it's so easy to just have him claim another dragon.

They could even have Daemon or Rhaenyra suggest that no one try to claim Seasmoke during the sowing, and then when Addam does anyway have the sad realization that Laenor must have died. I don't really think it's necessary though. 

I would like to see Laenor return, but if he does I think he should be pissed off at Rhaenyra and Daemon, not still allied with them. The man had to give up his name, titles, limitless wealth, dragon and break his parents hearts again like what a week after his sister died? All so Rhaenyra could "upgrade" to Daemon. I can't imagine he was happy about that, and he didn't look thrilled rowing away at the end. 

I wish they'd not gone for a twist there and just played the situation straight where we got Qarl and Laenor discussing it. With the implication from Qarl that if they say no, Daemon is likely to kill them. 

I like the Viserys II idea, especially if he ransoms Daemon's son back to him for a crazy amount of gold. 

[Winterfell is Burning]

On 10/3/2022 at 2:28 PM, slant said:

Why cannot I like your post? It works the other way around too... when Jeyne Royce supports Rhaenyra saying something like the women should stick together, I think its a really smart political move. 

The realm does not turn against her, but I get your point. 

You reminded me of a point I haven't considered- in the show, the Royces think Daemon murdered his wife (and are correct), they have every reason to oppose Rhaenyra, even if there's a woman ruling there now (which we don't know).

Edited October 4, 2022 by Winterfell is Burning

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

You should start asking how he could out of a locked room/castle ... or whether he would have even be tall enough to get to the door handle. Joffrey was born in 117 AC, so he turned three in 120 AC. We can pretend he was already three at Laenor's funeral, but he could just as well have still been two. It is just ridiculous.

Westeros is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural.

[butterweedstrover]

2 hours ago, RumHam said:

I'm curious did you feel the same way about the main novels? I don't think anyone would argue the Lannisters were on the right side. It didn't stop me for rooting for a couple of them.   

Not really because this narrative is framed with both sides sharing the main perspective while AGOT was literally from the viewpoint of the Starks. They were the main characters and Tyrion was just the black sheep meant to signify how evil the Lannisters could be while keeping track of their movements. 

The story post book 3 is something else entirely to the point it doesn't really have a narrative core yet. 

[Lord Varys]

5 minutes ago, RumHam said:

I asked this once before, but has the name "Seasmoke" even been said on the show? If Addam is introduced and claimed a dragon 90% of the audience will not question it. Plus it's so easy to just have him claim another dragon.

They could even have Daemon or Rhaenyra suggest that no one try to claim Seasmoke during the sowing, and then when Addam does anyway have the sad realization that Laenor must have died. I don't really think it's necessary though.

I think they should do it, since that episode clearly established the fact that only one person (Aemond) can ride a given dragon at a time (Vhagar).

Thereotically they could pretend Addam's dragon is a 'new dragon' we haven't see before, but that would be a cowardly cop-out.

But your idea of Addam succeeding telling them that Laenor must have died abroad is also pretty good if they don't want to bring him back. Since Laenor is officially dead, they would have no pretext to dissuade would-be dragonriders from trying to mount Seasmoke - even more so if Jace were to organize the Sowing in Rhaenyra's and Daemon's absence.

5 minutes ago, RumHam said:

I would like to see Laenor return, but if he does I think he should be pissed off at Rhaenyra and Daemon, not still allied with them. The man had to give up his name, titles, limitless wealth, dragon and break his parents hearts again like what a week after his sister died? All so Rhaenyra could "upgrade" to Daemon. I can't imagine he was happy about that, and he didn't look thrilled rowing away at the end.

Well, the whole thing could have only worked if Laenor actually wanted to go with Qarl. They could not possibly force him to agree to that thing.

If he were to return as an antagonist one could have him as part of the Triarchy's armada in the Battle of the Gullet. And if one goes with the dragon bond thing then Seasmoke could just have disappeared without a trace some time after Laenor's apparent death, having Laenor not return as a sailor or commander on a Triarchy ship ... but as a dragonrider in their employ. In such a scenario Laenor/Seasmoke could kill Jace and Vermax, with Seasmoke surviving and returning to Dragonstone while Laenor himself succumbs to wounds he suffered in the fighting.

Although I imagine that's a pretty unlikely scenario.

Honestly, I think Laenor looks pretty happy on the boat, and Qarl, too.

The best way to include a return would be Laenor hearing about Luke's gruesome death and how Rhaenyra was fucked by the Greens ... having regrets and wanting to help. It is clear he liked her and he loved the boys, so he should be very stricken when he hears what has happened to them.

And the whole thing would have great potential for friction, not just between Corlys/Rhaenyra and Rhaenyra/Daemon, but also Rhaenyra and Jace.

[Winterfell is Burning]

15 hours ago, Stenkarazine said:

Aegon's answer to his father ("everyone knows") and the absolute lack of outrage (even feigned) to it confirms that in the show the Velaryons' bastardy is treated as an open secret, known by virtually everyone at Court. As said in the previous thread, I find this utterly ridiculous and unrealistic. 

 

 

It's not unrealistic. The only person who must refuse to see it is Viserys. The opinion of everyone else doesn't matter.

[Minsc]

3 hours ago, RumHam said:

I'm curious did you feel the same way about the main novels? I don't think anyone would argue the Lannisters were on the right side. It didn't stop me for rooting for a couple of them.   

That has at least the balance in that there are plenty of Lannisters that are seen as highly competent.  Tywin is an utterly awful human, but he is extremely competent in ruling the realm.  Jaime is awful in his own way, but he is an extremely badass fighter that is shown as extremely witty.  Tyrion is competent, witty, and generally sympathetic.  Kevan is treated as a competent leader.  Tommen and Myrcella are both highly sympathetic.  Only Joffrey and Cersei are both evil and incompetent.

Meanwhile, that counter balance of mixing competency and badness isn't there for the Greens.  Rather the character closest to Tywin/Jaime in being both bad and highly competent is Daemon.

[The Grey Wolf Strikes Back]

@Minsc

I agree. I wouldn't complain about the Dance half as much as I do if the Greens were at least as competent as they are unlikable but they aren't and that makes it hard to stay interested in the conflict because there's no genuine tension.

Btw, who is the smug guy in front of Aemond in the episode 8 trailer? Aegon or Daeron because if its supposed to be Aegon the actor looks both younger and shorter than the actor for adult Aemond, who I have a good feeling about despite him having only one line in the trailer. Something about the way the actor says "nephews" just exudes confidence and danger.

Edited October 5, 2022 by The Grey Wolf Strikes Back

[EggBlue]

24 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

@Minsc

I agree. I wouldn't complain about the Dance half as much as I do if the Greens were at least as competent as they are unlikable but they aren't and that makes it hard to stay interested in the conflict because there's no genuine tension.

Btw, who is the smug guy in front of Aemond in the episode 8 trailer? Aegon or Daeron because if its supposed to be Aegon the actor looks both younger and shorter than the actor for adult Aemond, who I have a good feeling about despite him having only one line in the trailer. Something about the way the actor says "nephews" just exudes confidence and danger.

that's Aegon . and yeah , totally agree with your post . I hope they make Aemond competent and sympathetic to balance the Dance a bit . with whatever they've done with Daemon and Larys , I don't think we need more purely maniac characters in the show, especially on Green side.