[Spoilers] Episode 107 Discussion

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

5 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

I hope they make Aemond competent and sympathetic to balance the Dance a bit. 

Or they can do something daring and actually add Daeron. 

[dsjj251]

13 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Whatever the truth is to that specific passage it is not just a random detail pulled from whole cloth. 
 

There are certain things we know from the story at large which add to the idea or notion of their respective psychology. 
 

Whereas Alicent had four successful pregnancies and retained this sort of aura as a Queen, Rhaenyra lost hers and around the same time the moniker of “the realm’s delight”. She became despised by many in the city and isolated herself in Dragonstone away from her subjects she is supposed to rule. 
 

Was she jealous? We don’t know for sure but it’s a concept F&B introduces to us because otherwise Mushroom would never have been referenced to us at all. 
 

Compare that to the show where Rhaenyra is made out to be less stressful, at a calm, and with a freedom that allows her to raise better children than Alicent you can see how Alicent is given the short end of the stick for no other reason than to keep Rhaenyra from being dislikable and making sure people know they are suppose to hate Alicent.

 

I have no idea where you are getting this argument. Rhaenyra takes possession of Dragonstone when she turns 16, there is nothing in Fire and Blood even claiming she was driven away from court.  Where is it stated she was despised by people in the city ?????
 

Quote

I don’t know why you feel the need to misinterpret the argument but you don’t come off as more enlightened by doing so. 

I didnt misinterpret your argument, and LOL at that enlightenment comment. 


 

 

13 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

 

Then her stepmother who is her sworn enemy in court surpasses her in beauty, in terms of attention, and leaving her to the point of bitterness where she loses the moniker “the realm’s delight” and escapes to Dragonstone away from where all her subjects had sung her praise. 
 

You are mixing book and show, they are not sworn enemies in the book. And she doesnt "escape" to Dragonstone. 

 

13 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

You didn’t get my post. This is a narrative, character motivation matters especially when discussing moral ambiguity or lack there of. 
 

Thats fine, but you didnt argue lack there of, you made a claim in the affirmative that Rhaenyra would harm Aegon, Helaena, Aemond, and Daeron, which she never once shows in the book or show. 

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Saying the reason Alicent crowns Aegon doesn’t matter shows you don’t really care about this story or you think so little of it that it’s not worth discussing.

LMFAO ROTF, bro chill out, like seriously, you need to walk away from this forum for a while if you are reacting like this for me turning your own argument against you. 

 

 

13 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

It is important whether Alicent thinks she is doing this for the realm, her children, her family, or for power. 
 

The rationale behind her decision affects the moral fidelity of her side and they sympathy it can encourage. 
 

Whereas if she is just evil Rhaenyra’s side is diluted into the “good” team regardless of methods.

 

False premise, morality is an opinion, and in context, morality is simply arguing that Jacaerys Velaryon will sit the Iron Throne , and he is a bastard so that cant happen, so he must die, LOL, no.  That morality existed in medieval times and in the context of the books, but you as a person arguing this objectively, dont think that alone is "evil" then , idk man, that scares me, LOL

13 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

I’m talking from the show internally. The first five episodes make it clear Alicent doesn’t desire the throne. She circumvents her father in trying to undermine Rhaenyra and keeps herself a friend to the princess. She shows no interest in having her son as heir. 
 

The one motive we are given is when Alicent is led to believe her children are endanger if Rhaenyra ascends.  
 

Fast forward to the next episode and Alicent is showing no regards for the safety of her children, just pure ambition for the throne. That is a 180. 
 

And if they did to make sure people know Alicent is the villain then that is bad writing.

 

Again, I disagree on your entire premise, Rhaenyra never threatens those kids, men who want Aegon on the thrown simply keep saying, outloud, in dialogue that a man should inherit and that the only way Rhaenyra will get the thrones is by killing them.  Whether you believe that is true or not, it is Otto and Hubert who said it and believe it, not Rhaenyra. 

13 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

There are many ways they could have added nuance to the greens and they DID in the first five episodes. 
 

They showed Rhaenyra being disrespectful to the nobility suggesting she is not making allies. They could expand this to show how she is self-centered and disinterested in ruling well. Rhaenyra could become cold and lead Alicent to speculate the worst.  
 

If the realm hated Rhaenyra they would look for an alternative and then Alicent’s children would be threatened. If Rhaenyra gave Alicent the impression she doesn’t care about them it could motivate Alicent even more.
 

Instead by episode 6 they had Rhaenyra be calm, diplomatic, and even offer intrinsic protection to Alicent’s children through a marriage proposal. 
 

Which leaves Alicent’s constant undermining of Rhaenyra to come off as generic lust for power. Which not only dilutes the nuance behind her character, but further makes the greens into the “bad guys” so that all of the blacks in their desire to stop the greens have a heroic frame behind them, even if they do awful things.

 The Greens are the bad guys its that simple. 

Rhaenyra is the heir, and trying to take her throne makes you the bad guy. 

 

Quote

Tell that to Martin. He is the one who insists this story has no good guys or bad guys. Which I think would be more compelling television. 
 

In fact it was during the first five episodes.

 

I already laid out why I believe the Blacks are clearly in the right, so i guess to simplify this for you, The  Black's ends justify the means 

[Lord Varys]

George's asshole characters are mostly sympathetic because we have their POVs. Jaime from the outside is a complete monster, ditto, presumably, Tyrion. Cersei, on the other hand, is ugly from the inside but not so much from the outside.

We have no clue how sympathetic or interesting the Dance characters would be as novel characters since the information we have on them makes it very difficult for us to even imagine how their inner voice would sound like.

Not sure what it is about the Greens being incompetent. The Blacks are much worse there, as the bumbling of the Gullet, the Honeywine, and, especially, First Tumbleton shows.

Also dragging out the attack on KL for nearly an entire year was very bad strategy. They had sufficient dragons for an earlier attack.

[TheValonqarThatWasAzorAhai]

The only way that I can figure out the Laenor fake out working is if somehow Corlys was in one it, or he found out somehow.  After Rhaenys dies, Corlys could have sent for Laenor (who changed his name to Adam).  Corlys could also have a bastard son (or two), hence “Addam”s brother Alyn (Corlys could have paid off the mother to say Addam was her son also).  No one besides Corlys, Rhaenyra, and Daemon (who were in on it) would really recognize Laenor.  Too much time has passed for anyone else (save Rhaenys) to recognize “Addam”.

 

At least that is my theory on how they can work around Leanor’s “death” and Addam claiming Seasmoke.  Don’t know if it makes sense or would work.

[Minsc]

1 hour ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

I agree. I wouldn't complain about the Dance half as much as I do if the Greens were at least as competent as they are unlikable but they aren't and that makes it hard to stay interested in the conflict because there's no genuine tension.

It is the same reason that I find the Blackwood/Bracken feud to utterly suck.  There is absolutely no nuance to it.  All logic the Brackens should all be dead long before the start of the main series.

They uniformally losers while also being jerks.  While the Blackwoods are uniformly winners and loved by basically all.  Seriously, the fact that the story has Missy Blackwood being so awesome that Naerys and Daeron II loved her despite her being their husband/father's public mistress is silly.

Imagine if in Dunk and Egg that the Brute of Bracken had sided with Dunk at his Trial of Seven causing Egg to question his biases relating to houses that served the Blackfyres.  Heck, have Egg marry a Bracken over a Blackwood so Bloodraven tries to crown Aemon and is sent to wall over it.

Just something where the Brackens are in the right.

[C.T. Phipps]

2 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Or they can do something daring and actually add Daeron. 

I mean, the Aemond line is really confusing because Aemond is a fucking monster.

This is like, "The Bolton bias is awful."

 

[The Grey Wolf Strikes Back]

@Lord Varys

Let's go over the battles, shall we?

1) Burning Mill and Storming of Stone Hedge: The Brackens get outmaneuvered, with Amos getting killed immediately after killing Samwell. Then, to add insult to injury, Humphrey is captured because he was dumb enough to not leave behind a strong enough force with which to defend Stone Hedge. (The only consolation is that Daemon and Caraxes' presence somewhat mitigate this.) Finally, the fact that the storming of Stone Hedge spells the end of Green strength in the Riverlands despite GRRM not showing us what happened to the other Green Riverlanders such as the Vances of Atranta.

2) Rook's Rest: Despite having two dragons, one of them being freaking Vhagar, Meleys still manages to utterly wreck Aegon and Sunfyre in what is their first engagement.

3) Gullet: The Triarchy suffers such heavy losses it plays no further role and in fact starts tearing itself apart.

4) Honeywine: In the leadup to it the Blacks practice effective guerilla tactics, something the Greens never do. During the battle itself, the Blacks outmaneuver the Greens (something that almost never happens in reverse) and are on the verge of winning before Daeron bails Ormund out without any prior buildup, lending the whole affair a "draconia ex machina" flavor.

5) Fall of King's Landing/March on Harrenhal: Aemond and Cole were dumb enough to denude KL of dragons and men despite the threat presented by Rhaenyra and her dragonseeds with minimal pushback from the Green council. (This is honestly worsened by the fact GRRM took Helaena out as an active participant by reducing her to a grieving mother similar to Rhaenyra after Luke's death.)

6) Red Fork: The Lannisters try to force a river crossing three times before deciding to change tactics, with their commander dying in this first engagement.

7) Acorn Hall: The Lannisters win only for the new commander, Adrian Tarbeck, to die in a minor battle shortly thereafter.

8) Fishfeed: The Lannisters are constantly on the backfoot and reacting, leading to their demise. (The only consolation is that the Blacks actually pay a heavy price for their victory on account of their choice of tactics.)

9) Butcher's Ball: Aemond is dumb enough to abandon Cole deep in enemy territory, with the famed "Kingmaker" dying unceremoniously without having actually accomplished much or resolving his narrative issues with Rhaenyra in a way that both makes no sense given his latter reputation but also is plain unsatisfying from a narrative/character arc perspective as well.

10) First Tumbleton: Despite Ormund shattering their ranks with a volley of arrows followed by a cavalry charge, Roddy and his Winter Wolves are so badass they cut their way through ten times their number to kill both Ormund and Bryndon, the latter two dying despite Roddy losing a whole arm to Bryndon in the opening moments of their duel and Ormund having a Valyrian steel sword. Seriously, if Hugh and Ulf hadn't switched swides, which the Greens did nothing to facilitate and thus can't take credit for, the Greens would have been finished then and there seeing as Tessarion was no match for Vermithor, let alone the Bronze Fury AND Silverwing.

11) Fall of Dragonstone: Baela and Moondancer are so incredibly badass that the admittedly injured but much larger Sunfyre is permanently grounded and Aegon crippled while Baela suffers at most temporary burn injuries.

12) Second Tumbleton: Daeron's death is literally "rocks fall, everyone dies". More importantly, the Blacks somehow only suffer 100 casualties despite Vermithor running amok and latter three dragons duking it out on the ground. Seriously, Lords Dedding and Piper die along with all their retinue yet somehow those men and any other Black casualties amount to less than 100. Oh, and somehow only the Riverlands can drum up multiple armies (even if they are on their last legs by this point) yet when Borros and his less than 5K Stormlanders are defeated its treated as if that's all the Stormlands can muster (even though we know they can muster more and that there are men available to lead them such as Royce Caron and Steffon Connington). Likewise, the Hightowers respond to Aegon II's demand for fresh armies by saying they're tapped out yet when Corlys sends his peace missives its noted that the Hightowers have the strength and connections to reignite the war by themselves. On top of that when Unwin retreats following Second Tumbleton the Reach army still numbers in the thousands. Finally, the Lannisters are capable of upwards of 30K+ yet can't send another army after losing only 8K between Red Fork and Fishfeed? It doesn't make any sense, especially since we see Johanna (in mimicry of her future descendant, Tywin) wish death and destruction upon all the Ironborn and to that end invades them first chance she gets. The idea that such a woman would make peace with the regime that unleashed the hated Ironborn upon her people's shores rather than send another army to wreck their shit safe in the knowledge that Casterly Rock is impregnable to retaliation even by dragonflame (and thus her children are safe) is a bit hard to swallow. Oh, and the storming of Stone Hedge takes the Green Riverlanders out of the fighting but conveniently for the Blacks Humphrey does have some men to contribute when he wants to switch sides. Finally, the Redwynes declaring for Aegon but then doing nothing despite the fact that they're related by blood to both the Peakes and the Hightowers and Gyldayn mentioning that as one of the reasons why the Hightowers alone could reignite the conflict if Lyonel wished to refuse Corlys' peace offer. Speaking of Lyonel, the fact that he was barely a man grown being presented as a reason why he couldn't send another army to aid Aegon II falls apart when you remember the Hightowers are a big, fucking family and he could have easily sent some random, obscure cousin (like that guy Myles) to lead this new army in his stead.

13) Muddy Mess: Borros and his Stormlanders are killed/defeated in their first (and thus only) engagement. To pour salt on the wound, Borros, despite being described as a seasoned commander who's both clashed with Dornishmen multiple times and slain at least one Vulture King, makes numerous amateur blunders (charging at dusk (which means his men didn't get a chance to rest), ignoring Black Aly's archers on the nearby hill, not checking the surrounding forest for enemy forces that then predictably flanked him, etc.) that result in him getting defeated by a bunch of teens (and in the case of Bloody Ben one pre-teen!) that actually outnumber him. (The Wiki's wrong on that front. The Blacks had 6K at the Kingsroad whereas Borros' main strength was less than 4.6K.)

Notice the pattern of only the Greens hemorrhaging commanders (often in their very first engagement), never earning or winning genuinely decisive victories, always getting flanked and never using guerilla tactics, suffering heavy losses even when they win, never being able to replenish their numbers, etc.?

Likewise, notice how only the major Green leaders have just one, conveniently underage son, to succeed them when they fall in battle? Its almost like things were pre-set for Corlys' peace missive to have maximal effect...

All this despite F & B making a big deal about the Greens having more men (yet we have more named Blacks than Greens), more wealth, commanding the three greatest cities in Westeros, etc., with the Blacks supposedly only advantages being dragons and ships (because the Targaryens for some reason were perfectly happy being at the Velaryons' mercy even when they weren't getting along).

Edited October 5, 2022 by The Grey Wolf Strikes Back

[RumHam]

19 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

Seriously, if Hugh and Ulf hadn't switched swides, which the Greens did nothing to facilitate and thus can't take credit for...

Huh, you think? I always assumed someone must have reached out to them with an offer. 

 

[The Bard of Banefort]

The idea that Rhaenyra being suspected of having a hand in Laenor’s death is a good thing, since it will make people fear her, is really quite dumb. Rhaenyra is a woman; any mark on her reputation will only hinder her cause, not help it. Rohanne Webber always took swift action against those who sought to defy her, yet even she saw no gain in being accused of murdering her husbands. It made people fear her, but it also made her more vulnerable to bad actors and people who wanted to supplant her.

But the even bigger risk is that if Rhaenys and Corlys suspect that Rhaenyra arranged for Laenor’s death, then Rhaenyra will have alienated one of the most powerful families in the realm, who have access to both the largest fleet and a dragon. They know the boys aren’t Laenor’s. They could easily turn against Rhaenyra if she pushed them too far.

The problem is, I don’t know if the show is going to portray this as a bad decision that backfires on her or if they’ll instead spin it as an act of cunning. I’ve lost faith that the show will portray her in a negative light, so I really don’t know.

The funny thing is, if viewed in isolation, adult Rhaenyra may be my favorite character on the show. My problem is how they abandoned all the strides they made in improving the characters during the first half of the season and instead cast Rhaenyra as the hero and Alicent as the villain. (And yes, they have made Alicent a villain. When an American showrunner describes a character as “women for Trump,” he does not mean it as a compliment or even just as a neutral observation. That’s the state of our culture right now). Maybe they’ll try to tip the scales again further down the road, but at the moment I’m disappointed.

[Sotan]

4 hours ago, EggBlue said:

I hope they make Aemond competent and sympathetic to balance the Dance a bit .

Competent sure, sympathetic? That's a lot of work. He's a mass murdering sociopath. 

[Sotan]

59 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

When an American showrunner describes a character as “women for Trump,”

I thought it was Olivia Cook who described Alicent as a "woman for Trump"?

[C.T. Phipps]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

The funny thing is, if viewed in isolation, adult Rhaenyra may be my favorite character on the show. My problem is how they abandoned all the strides they made in improving the characters during the first half of the season and instead cast Rhaenyra as the hero and Alicent as the villain. (And yes, they have made Alicent a villain. When an American showrunner describes a character as “women for Trump,” he does not mean it as a compliment or even just as a neutral observation. That’s the state of our culture right now). Maybe they’ll try to tip the scales again further down the road, but at the moment I’m disappointed.

To be honest, I hesitate at any idea of 'improving' on Martin's writing. Fidelity to the author is why the writing on this series is so good.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Sotan said:

I thought it was Olivia Cook who described Alicent as a "woman for Trump"?

Many Americans would consider that a compliment, although I doubt if it’s meant to be.

[Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe]

4 hours ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

Blacks somehow only suffer 100 casualties

I haven’t played any of the number games in F&B but are the outcomes equivalent to the victories? 

[Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe]

3 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

American showrunner describes a character as “women for Trump,”

“Yee-Haw!”

:Finger Guns:

“Bang! Bang! Grab'm by the pussy!”

I suspect a lot of dancing around (I'm probably wrong, usually am.) I do wish the characters would stick to be evil or good. None of this twilight. If the time of day has an effect. (( I’m probably wrong, usually am.))

They should use a very heavy John Ford style. Especially for Dunk and egg. 

Edited October 5, 2022 by Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe

[EggBlue]

4 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

The idea that Rhaenyra being suspected of having a hand in Laenor’s death is a good thing, since it will make people fear her, is really quite dumb. Rhaenyra is a woman; any mark on her reputation will only hinder her cause, not help it. Rohanne Webber always took swift action against those who sought to defy her, yet even she saw no gain in being accused of murdering her husbands. It made people fear her, but it also made her more vulnerable to bad actors and people who wanted to supplant her.

But the even bigger risk is that if Rhaenys and Corlys suspect that Rhaenyra arranged for Laenor’s death, then Rhaenyra will have alienated one of the most powerful families in the realm, who have access to both the largest fleet and a dragon. They know the boys aren’t Laenor’s. They could easily turn against Rhaenyra if she pushed them too far.

yes , I think they should 1. show that Rhaenyra's decision to choose Daemon and fear was pretty dumb (they call her Maegor after all , and it can be for being fearsome and crazy ... rather than just taxes) 2. Rhaenys and Corlys get to know what happened to their son . .. otherwise it makes no sense . 

4 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

The problem is, I don’t know if the show is going to portray this as a bad decision that backfires on her or if they’ll instead spin it as an act of cunning. I’ve lost faith that the show will portray her in a negative light, so I really don’t know.

The funny thing is, if viewed in isolation, adult Rhaenyra may be my favorite character on the show. My problem is how they abandoned all the strides they made in improving the characters during the first half of the season and instead cast Rhaenyra as the hero and Alicent as the villain. (And yes, they have made Alicent a villain. When an American showrunner describes a character as “women for Trump,” he does not mean it as a compliment or even just as a neutral observation. That’s the state of our culture right now). Maybe they’ll try to tip the scales again further down the road, but at the moment I’m disappointed.

young Rhaenyra was a bit bratty and spoiled but that's a long way from showing her in actual negative light or to depict her as capable of doing monstrous things. in a way, adult Rhaenyra is still bratty , spoiled and quite frankly selfish . she 's just more matured now and has the merit of being compared to full villain Alicent. but the whole "Laenor's death" plot ,for example, is a stupid ploy to get Daemon and to think she needs him is just silly ! if there was the slightest chance to make peace with Greens despite Aemond's eye , it is all gone with Daemon at her side . and to be honest , I found the fact that she thinks she saves face quite hilarious! she's had three bastards with a dark haired guy with no similarity to her husband and she doesn't even make the excuse of being desperately in love !  one would imagine a need to be desired doesn't take 10 yrs with one politically incorrect lover .

 

[SeanF]

21 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

It is somewhat ironic as someone who argues that the show's recent representation of Alicent/Rhaenyra is consistent with the source material you reject stuff that was actually alluded to in the book while believing something that was never even implied. 

Regardless of what houses the Blacks were able to rally, at court Alicent outshone Rhaenyra who was not actually described as a free spirit but someone who lost much of her acclaim and had to retreat from the eyes of the public. 

You can believe the opposite, but really it goes back to the point: Why did the show excise the negative attributes from Rhaenyra and shift them over to Alicent. Rhaenyra does not show real frustration or bitterness at the fact that her step-mother is dedicated to seeing her fail. She takes it at the chin and has these general likeability that makes Alicent seem even more despicable in her crusade to the point the greens lose any nuance they might have had in order to better the story. 

At least to me, the source material does make the Greens in general, and Alicent in particular, out to be despicable.

That may not be what Martin intended but it's how it comes over to me, and it seems, a great many readers. I can feel sympathy for Alicent, simply because the last years of her life were so awful, and she had to witness the deaths of her children and grandchildren, but that doesn't alter that she was a  terrible person.

[The Bard of Banefort]

4 hours ago, Sotan said:

I thought it was Olivia Cook who described Alicent as a "woman for Trump"?

Sotan, where have you been all this time?!

Olivia said that that was how the showrunners described Alicent to her. Which is silly on its own, since Trump’s biggest female supporters were never debutantes.

3 hours ago, SeanF said:

Many Americans would consider that a compliment, although I doubt if it’s meant to be.

No one working in the entertainment industry would consider it a compliment. Trust me. 
 

Alicent is pretty clearly a villain in the books, although she’s more like show-Cersei, cool and calculating, than the neurotic mess she is on the show. My problem isn’t so much that she’s a villain, but more that they have essentially erased any positive quality she had prior to the time jump.

[EggBlue]

33 minutes ago, SeanF said:

At least to me, the source material does make the Greens in general, and Alicent in particular, out to be despicable.

That may not be what Martin intended but it's how it comes over to me, and it seems, a great many readers. I can feel sympathy for Alicent, simply because the last years of her life were so awful, and she had to witness the deaths of her children and grandchildren, but that doesn't alter that she was a  terrible person.

that's my read as well . but the show made an attempt to make her sympathetic with MANY likeable qualities and for half the season at that , only to jump 10 years and change it 180 degrees . besides, if you don't want to have a smooth transition between the years and want to leave so much to imagination , it's better to use flashbacks for the past and spend time on getting deep into adult characters throughout the season rather than use a linear structure with far too many time jumps. 

[Tijgy]

2 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

that's my read as well . but the show made an attempt to make her sympathetic with MANY likeable qualities and for half the season at that , only to jump 10 years and change it 180 degrees . besides, if you don't want to have a smooth transition between the years and want to leave so much to imagination , it's better to use flashbacks for the past and spend time on getting deep into adult characters throughout the season rather than use a linear structure with far too many time jumps. 

To be honest, I have personally still more sympathy for showAlicent than for showRhaenyra even after the time jump. I personally don't understand all the hate.