[Spoilers] Episode 107 Discussion

[Chad Vader]

14 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

I had a dream Harwin Strong is still alive. 

Did he survive the fire because I think they showed him escaping the fire in a cloak. 

Laenor and Harwin spin-off. Might get akward

[sifth]

Man that Laenor twist just doesn't make any sense and seems to come out of nowhere. So he just randomly decides to give up on his life, wealth and family?

Edited October 5, 2022 by sifth

[butterweedstrover]

11 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

 

I have no idea where you are getting this argument. Rhaenyra takes possession of Dragonstone when she turns 16, there is nothing in Fire and Blood even claiming she was driven away from court.  Where is it stated she was despised by people in the city ????? 

 

You're shooting from the hip right now and need to stop with the "I have no idea". 

Reading your reply it seems obvious we are talking passed one another, maybe you need to slow down and go back to my original post. The only point I was making was that F&B never depicted Alicent as being jealous of Rhaenyra. 

As for Rhaenyra, when the book openly provides passages that imply a certain dynamic, it is not just fake information since Martin is writing a drama, not an actual history. For what we have we know Alicent, her stepmother, outshines her step-daughter in court, surpassing her in beauty, as the princess loses her moniker the "realms delight" and retreats from the public eye. 

Having possession of Dragonstone doesn't require one to live there, no more than Stannis disappearing from public eye was deemed suspicious. There are multiple passages where Rhaenyra is described as unlikable and choosing to ignore them doesn't play well to this idea that there is a definitive source material. 

But really, this is getting a little out of hand seeing as you think I'm trying to make out Alicent from the book into hero which I'm not.  

11 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

I didnt misinterpret your argument, and LOL at that enlightenment comment.  

We don't have to be this combative, since especially Alicent and Rhaenyra were feuding in the books and not just over one being skinny and the other not.  

But it doesn't really matter because this is not really what we're talking about.

11 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

You are mixing book and show, they are not sworn enemies in the book. 

 

Yes they are. 

11 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

 

 

Thats fine, but you didnt argue lack there of, you made a claim in the affirmative that Rhaenyra would harm Aegon, Helaena, Aemond, and Daeron, which she never once shows in the book or show.  

Ok, ok. I am not making that argument. I don't think it's true and it's obvious from reading this you think I'm arguing something that I'm not. 

I said IF Alicent had reason to believe this or if Rhaenyra showed herself capable of doing it that might give the Greens some real moral fidelity that as of now doesn't exist. As in the first five episodes the more multifaceted version of Alicent was shown to have no ambition for the throne and would only desire it if the lives of her children were at risk. 

But then in the time jump she shows neither concern for children's well being but just pure ambition for power which contradicts the first five episodes and makes for a less compelling story with a more generic villain. 

11 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

LMFAO ROTF, bro chill out, like seriously, you need to walk away from this forum for a while if you are reacting like this for me turning your own argument against you.  

I was taking you are argument to it's logical conclusion. If it doesn't matter why Alicent did what she did what are we discussing? I mean do you even know what my position is? Can you recite because elsewise I think we are arguing about different things. 

Incidentally, I think if you understood what my point was you'd be a lot less combative. My point isn't that Rhaenyra is actually evil, my point is the show excised her potential flaws from both the book and the first five episodes to make a character against which Alicent loses all credibility and becomes a generic unlikable villain. 

Which is bad for a story trying to get us to sympathize with two perspective sides and argue among ourselves. 

11 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

 

 

 

False premise, morality is an opinion, and in context, morality is simply arguing that Jacaerys Velaryon will sit the Iron Throne , and he is a bastard so that cant happen, so he must die, LOL, no.  That morality existed in medieval times and in the context of the books, but you as a person arguing this objectively, dont think that alone is "evil" then , idk man, that scares me, LOL 

I'm not saying that, like slow it down from a sec. I'm saying that making someone do an evil think for evil reasons does not leave said character with a lot of nuance nor does it all viewers to sympathize with their faction. 

I'm agreeing that is what the show as of the last two episodes is depicting, and I'm saying it is making the story worst. F&B was vague enough to give the showrunners room to invent their own motivations and dynamics in the characters, which they did. 

Now it is even worse because Rhaenyra has been made more upright and heroic than in the books dilluting not just her faction but removing any depth to Alicent. Now the greens are just power hungry usurpers while the Blacks are narratively speaking the heroes. 

All the Black characters will be consequence be framed under the supervision of this heroic goal that whitewashes them and dilutes the emotional conflict into a one sided affair. 

11 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

 

Again, I disagree on your entire premise, Rhaenyra never threatens those kids, men who want Aegon on the thrown simply keep saying, outloud, in dialogue that a man should inherit and that the only way Rhaenyra will get the thrones is by killing them.  Whether you believe that is true or not, it is Otto and Hubert who said it and believe it, not Rhaenyra.  

I'm not saying she does. Are you certain you read my post?

11 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

 The Greens are the bad guys its that simple.   

And they shouldn't be. Which is my point. F&B gave enough room for the Blacks to be characterized as villains and the Greens. It was the shows prerogative to ad nuance to both sides (as Martin so wishes) and make for a compelling duel perspective narrative but instead after five episodes of set up drops the ball and turns the Greens into generic villains when they didn't have to. 

11 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

 

 

Rhaenyra is the heir, and trying to take her throne makes you the bad guy.  

But like it doesn't have to. Hereditary rule is not the be all end of all of leadership. Alicent could have been given real reason to not want to see Rhaenyra in power. Instead she is willing to put her children in harms way for a throne we are given no explicit motivation for why she should want. 

Which dilutes the character depth on both sides.

11 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

 

I already laid out why I believe the Blacks are clearly in the right, so i guess to simplify this for you, The  Black's ends justify the means 

Incidentally I agree, which is what makes this show suck so hard post time skip. 

I have no clue how your post got two likes when you didn't read my reply or understand what I was saying. I feel like I just wasted 7 minutes writing this up right, please don't make that so. 

Edited October 5, 2022 by butterweedstrover

[butterweedstrover]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

At least to me, the source material does make the Greens in general, and Alicent in particular, out to be despicable.

That may not be what Martin intended but it's how it comes over to me, and it seems, a great many readers. I can feel sympathy for Alicent, simply because the last years of her life were so awful, and she had to witness the deaths of her children and grandchildren, but that doesn't alter that she was a  terrible person.

Yeah, but it does that for the Blacks as well. 

The show was suppose to add nuance to the characters by adding to their motivations, psychological depth, and personal history. Which again it did in the first five episodes. 

Rhaenyra was shown to be entitled, flippant, repellent to duty, while also wanting the throne more than anything.  

Alicent showed no predisposition towards wanting the throne and could only be convinced of that direction if her children's lives were at stake.  

Then all the sudden she spurns every offer of protection in favor of putting her eldest on the throne. What are her motivations but a lust for power? And in that case why should be care since there is no basis for that predisposition that we can understand besides "muh, Alicent evil". 

[butterweedstrover]

41 minutes ago, Tijgy said:

To be honest, I have personally still more sympathy for showAlicent than for showRhaenyra even after the time jump. I personally don't understand all the hate. 

 

Well I do too but only because its obvious the showrunners want me to hate Alicent and love Rhaenyra. 

[C.T. Phipps]

21 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Well I do too but only because its obvious the showrunners want me to hate Alicent and love Rhaenyra. 

Like I said, you seem to act like this is a flaw in the writing.

It's only so if you think the show should be neutral.

Edited October 5, 2022 by C.T. Phipps

[butterweedstrover]

1 minute ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Like I said, you seem to act like this is a flaw in the writing.

It's a flaw given the first five episodes, and it is a flaw in how it hurts the main premise which is a duel perspective between two factions. 

This isn't AGOT where the Starks were clearly our main family. Here both the Greens and the Blacks share the perspective role and behave as main characters to the story. That is why Martin wanted both sides to have nuance and sympathy rather than allow for one to to be cast in a heroic light. 

At least for these last two episodes, that is what has happened. And in that regard the character dynamics have been diluted into the framework of good vs evil.  

[sifth]

It seems to be the show is depicting the blacks in a lighter way, than the greens. The twist at the end of this episode is pretty much them doing just that.

[Mark Antony]

Well we are still essentially in prologue territory. Most of the evil shit the Blacks do doesn’t happen till after the Good Guy Greens leave Viserys body to rot for a week. Wonder if all the rats we have seen will feed on his corpse. Still think they have done a decent enough job making Daemon and Rhaenyra flawed. They definitely don’t come across as heroic.

[Crixus]

On 10/3/2022 at 7:19 AM, DMC said:

\What will be interesting is how/if they deal with Seasmoke.  And more importantly, maybe they dealt with this in the after show shit but certainly not in what I saw, whether Corlys and Rhaenys are aware and how they'll feel about it.  THOSE are the interesting things for devotees.  Not how much this may or may not "whitewash" certain characters - who, btw, weren't very "colored" to begin with.  Get the fuck over yourselves.

Agree with your last: no one is whitewashed and this constant fixation is tedious.

I was actually thinking exactly this re Corlys and Rhaenys - that whole thing about a secret not remaining secret the more people it's shared with, and Rhaenys' grief so raw and genuine, made me think they didn't know. I also thought about the VO from Rhaenyra about how many would suspect her having a hand in Laenor's 'death', and wondered whether Corlys/Rhaenys would suspect her too given her subsequent marriage to Daemon. If so, why would they join the Blacks? 

OTOH if they were in on it, it still seems a lot to swallow re having their heir abandon his birth-right. So I don't know. Let's see. Thoroughly enjoyed the episode either way. 

[Stenkarazine]

20 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Agreed.

But please elaborate. I'd be interested in hearing why you think it's both ridiculous and unrealistic.

 

Well, it seems to me since Episode 6 that the show portrays the bastardy as:

- Something that is an open secret, known (or strongly suspected) by virtually everyone at Court: this was confirmed in this episode by Aegon's line and the total lack of reaction from either Viserys or anyone in the room (they all know);

- Something that nobody really cares about except Alicent (thus hammering to modern viewers that she is very mean and petty or something).

I believe these two treatments are mutually exclusive:

- Either you portray the Velaryons' bastardy as something that only us viewers know for certain, and only some characters suspect, more or less vaguely: then you can indeed portray Alicent's accusations as irresponsible or scandalous, as was argued by many people in Episode 6's thread;

- Or you portray this bastardy as an open secret: then, in any realistic medieval setting (or Westerosi, for that matter), it should be seen as a major embarrassment for Rhaenyra and her would-be partisans; a source of endless gossip and outrage (sincere or not) at Court, in the streets of King's Landing (imagine the songs they would make of this in Flea Bottom) and in every castle across the land; a looming crisis waiting to explode (this could actually have explained nicely her hasty departure to Dragonstone).

In this situation, it would necessarily impact Viserys: even if he himself does not care about the issue (because the children are Targaryen from their mother side, it is all that matters), he surely cares about his heir's standing, which would be seriously eroded.

In short, I feel the show tried to have their cake and eat it: they wanted to lay the bastardy in the open while at the same time giving us more reasons to hate Alicent without handicapping too much Rhaenyra. It does not work, at least for me. 

 

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

 

Olivia said that that was how the showrunners described Alicent to her. Which is silly on its own, since Trump’s biggest female supporters were never debutantes.

No one working in the entertainment industry would consider it a compliment. Trust me. 
 

 

On my phone just now came up an advert for a cardboard cutout of Trump as Rambo.

[Crixus]

On 10/3/2022 at 8:31 AM, The Bard of Banefort said:

It occurs to me now that Daemon was completely unbothered by Aemond punching his daughter in the face. What a douchebag.

 

 

Exactly. He doesn't lift a finger to comfort R&B in the hall during the entire altercation, but seems more concerned about making sure Criston doesn't intervene when Alicent pulls out the knife. This coupled with Rhaena's comment to Laena in the last episode where she says he ignores her (I assume because Morning hasn't hatched?) makes him a shitty father. 

[butterweedstrover]

1 hour ago, Mark Antony said:

Well we are still essentially in prologue territory. Most of the evil shit the Blacks do doesn’t happen till after the Good Guy Greens leave Viserys body to rot for a week. Wonder if all the rats we have seen will feed on his corpse. Still think they have done a decent enough job making Daemon and Rhaenyra flawed. They definitely don’t come across as heroic.

Their cause is depicted as heroic which dilutes much of their methods. 

Meanwhile Alicent's motivations aren't even coherent as her lust for power isn't given a reason to exist, especially as it is at the expense of her own children. 

[Minsc]

2 hours ago, sifth said:

Man that Laenor twist just doesn't make any sense and seems to come out of nowhere. So he just randomly decides to give up on his life, wealth and family?

Meanwhile, Cole is treated as being insane for suggesting the same to Rhaenyra. Despite offer neither requires them making it looks like she has been murdered to her father or murdering anyone. 

[Lady Anna]

Liked the episode mostly for the kids fight and the dagger scene. Emma D'arcy is the best actor on the show to me now. They're doing an amazing job and I far prefer their version to Milly's (nothing against the actresses but I MUCH prefer their older versions than the younger). I don't know if it's just me but Rhaenyra comes across as sensible, astute and self-aware. I think this episode shows that she is preparing herself for what's coming: her marriage to Daemon (uniting both claims) and her words about fire being their family's bane and prison really shows a sort of resigned determination to what will happen when her father dies (war). Like "if we must then let's do it", the only way out is through. Alicent's reaction after the blinding, and cutting her with the dagger, must have been a sign.

My only complaint is that the Leanor thing doesn't make much sense and I'm afraid that they're making the Blacks seem more "good" then the Greens, especially Daemon. Sometimes he's a bastard and evil as is true to the book (grooming niece, not caring about his daughter, laughing at the funeral, etc.) but they didn't choose to make him the person behind Harwin's and Laenor's deaths (I didn't comment on the thread for episode 6 but why did they have Larys commiting kinslaying and getting rid of living evidence that Rhaenyra's children are bastards? Unless it was meant as a false flag operation but no one seems to question what happened. Any info from the book?). Not that I wanted Laenor to die, but it seems off. And will they tell the truth to Rhaenys and Corlys?

Edit: On the other hand, having Daemon and Rhaenyra just straight up plotting and murdering Laenor would feel too bloodthirsty and a bit of a 180 all of a sudden, especially for Rhaenyra. I do not think she would agree to something like that. Daemon alone yes, but with Rhaenyra's knowledge, no.

I absolutely LOVE Alicent, she's a super interesting, fascinating character, and I find the characterization of her children really good too.

This episode was, however, terribly lit. It was so bad and that has a negative effect on the costumes and sets.

Edited October 5, 2022 by Lady Anna

[sifth]

41 minutes ago, Minsc said:

Meanwhile, Cole is treated as being insane for suggesting the same to Rhaenyra. Despite offer neither requires them making it looks like she has been murdered to her father or murdering anyone. 

Very true, I forgot all about that. It almost felt like they wanted to have their cake and eat it too.

[Colonel Green]

21 minutes ago, Lady Anna said:

(I didn't comment on the thread for episode 6 but why did they have Larys commiting kinslaying and getting rid of living evidence that Rhaenyra's children are bastards? Unless it was meant as a false flag operation but no one seems to question what happened. Any info from the book?).

He killed them so that Otto could be Hand again. That was pretty explicitly stated in the show.

[Minsc]

16 minutes ago, sifth said:

Very true, I forgot all about that. It almost felt like they wanted to have their cake and eat it too.

That seems to be a guiding philosophy for the Blacks. Rhaenyra shouldn't have to explain herself to anyone or follow any rule that she doesn't want. However, Alicent should deny the king (whose good will her family depends on) and deny the most prestigious marriage possible to her as otherwise Rhaenyra will feel bad. 

 

Aemond is rude for not waiting longer to attempt to claim Laena's dragon. Meanwhile, Daemon and Rhaenyra barely wait any time to marry after their spouse's deaths. Not to mention, the act on the beach. 

[Lady Anna]

12 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

He killed them so that Otto could be Hand again. That was pretty explicitly stated in the show.

Right and he himself became Lord of Harrenhal. In that sense, I can see why he killed Harwin too. But otoh, and since the episode revolved around the children's parentage, it seems weird that Larys, who's on Alicent's side so far, would have killed Harwin who could confess to being the father of Rhaenyra's children. In any case I don't think this will be relevant again on the show.