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[Spoilers] Episode 107 Discussion


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11 hours ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

@Lord Varys

Let's go over the battles, shall we?

Sorry, don't really care about the minutiae of the battles. They are mostly irrelevant, have little to no strategic importance in relation to the goal of the two pretenders, with most victories of either side either being pointless or Pyrrhic. Most of the Dance is one Battle of Oxcross after the other. Who cares, really? I mean, why does it matter if there is fighting in the Riverlands? Or that the Ironborn are raiding the West? Neither is going to determine nor influence who the hell sits the Iron Throne.

The only proper military campaign in the war is the Hightower campaign, and that one is Green and most effective until the chain of command is broken.

But the Westermen are pretty successful, too, until they aren't. Which is not surprising since they are stuck in enemy territory, fighting the Riverlords on their own turf.

How little effort George put into make most of the stuff believable is, again and unsurprisingly, dragon-related.

We do have that comment that Addam Velaryon was stationed at the Dragonpit and the (wrong) claim, that one dragonrider always resided there. Which clearly wasn't the case back during the reign of Viserys I when the Red Keep-based Rhaenyra was the only dragonrider in KL for years and years.

The entire rationale that a Black dragon attack on the capital would have been too dangerous is ludicrous. Even if one dragonrider was at the Dragonpit - for which there is no sign since all the royal family lived in the Red Keep - one dragonrider could not possible stand against all of Rhaenyra's. It is a rather long ride from the Red Keep to the Dragonpit at the other end of the city, so none of the royal family could get there in time to actually mount their dragons and fight against the attackers. The logistics don't permit that.

Not to mention that such a surprise attack would have one or two dragonriders land at the Dragonpit to ensure that none of the enemy dragonriders could actually mount their dragons whilst the others took possession of the Red Keep.

Your wishes about proper arcs and such you also don't get for the main series - Joff was a great villain in the making who died well before his time in a most pitiful and undeserved manner. Tywin, too, not to speak of the Red Viper or Renly. Hell, even Balon still had stuff to do.

Criston Cole's pitiful end is pretty much what he deserves. He was this great knight, so the one thing he doesn't deserves is an honorable death in battle where he can show off his skills one last time. Jaime, too, should more die like Marston Waters than Amaury Peake.

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4 minutes ago, Lady Anna said:

Right and he himself became Lord of Harrenhal. In that sense, I can see why he killed Harwin too. But otoh, and since the episode revolved around the children's parentage, it seems weird that Larys, who's on Alicent's side so far, would have killed Harwin who could confess to being the father of Rhaenyra's children. In any case I don't think this will be relevant again on the show.

It feels weird. I think we should have had at least one dinner scene with the Strong family, before the fire. To flesh out Lary’s motivation.

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4 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Sotan, where have you been all this time?!

Olivia said that that was how the showrunners described Alicent to her. Which is silly on its own, since Trump’s biggest female supporters were never debutantes.

It's been a weird time, everything's ok tho. Been catching up on the show and the discussions here. 

You're right about the showrunners and Olivia. 

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2 hours ago, Mark Antony said:

Still think they have done a decent enough job making Daemon and Rhaenyra flawed. They definitely don’t come across as heroic.

Yeah, Rhaenyra is a coldhearted killer. Her plan to send Laenor away only works if a random guard is killed. The only way she would not be responsible for that guards death is if her plan was to actually have Laenor killed and the fake out was Daemon acting on his own since he was doing the practical stuff. Either way a man had to die for Rhaenyra. Definitely not a hero.

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2 hours ago, Stenkarazine said:

Well, it seems to me since Episode 6 that the show portrays the bastardy as:

- Something that is an open secret, known (or strongly suspected) by virtually everyone at Court: this was confirmed in this episode by Aegon's line and the total lack of reaction from either Viserys or anyone in the room (they all know);

- Something that nobody really cares about except Alicent (thus hammering to modern viewers that she is very mean and petty or something).

I believe these two treatments are mutually exclusive:

- Either you portray the Velaryons' bastardy as something that only us viewers know for certain, and only some characters suspect, more or less vaguely: then you can indeed portray Alicent's accusations as irresponsible or scandalous, as was argued by many people in Episode 6's thread;

- Or you portray this bastardy as an open secret: then, in any realistic medieval setting (or Westerosi, for that matter), it should be seen as a major embarrassment for Rhaenyra and her would-be partisans; a source of endless gossip and outrage (sincere or not) at Court, in the streets of King's Landing (imagine the songs they would make of this in Flea Bottom) and in every castle across the land; a looming crisis waiting to explode (this could actually have explained nicely her hasty departure to Dragonstone).

In this situation, it would necessarily impact Viserys: even if he himself does not care about the issue (because the children are Targaryen from their mother side, it is all that matters), he surely cares about his heir's standing, which would be seriously eroded.

In short, I feel the show tried to have their cake and eat it: they wanted to lay the bastardy in the open while at the same time giving us more reasons to hate Alicent without handicapping too much Rhaenyra. It does not work, at least for me. 

 

It's pretty simple- Viserys REFUSES to believe it. He heard the rumors, but buried his head in the sand.

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2 hours ago, Stenkarazine said:

Well, it seems to me since Episode 6 that the show portrays the bastardy as:

- Something that is an open secret, known (or strongly suspected) by virtually everyone at Court: this was confirmed in this episode by Aegon's line and the total lack of reaction from either Viserys or anyone in the room (they all know);

- Something that nobody really cares about except Alicent (thus hammering to modern viewers that she is very mean and petty or something).

I believe these two treatments are mutually exclusive:

- Either you portray the Velaryons' bastardy as something that only us viewers know for certain, and only some characters suspect, more or less vaguely: then you can indeed portray Alicent's accusations as irresponsible or scandalous, as was argued by many people in Episode 6's thread;

- Or you portray this bastardy as an open secret: then, in any realistic medieval setting (or Westerosi, for that matter), it should be seen as a major embarrassment for Rhaenyra and her would-be partisans; a source of endless gossip and outrage (sincere or not) at Court, in the streets of King's Landing (imagine the songs they would make of this in Flea Bottom) and in every castle across the land; a looming crisis waiting to explode (this could actually have explained nicely her hasty departure to Dragonstone).

In this situation, it would necessarily impact Viserys: even if he himself does not care about the issue (because the children are Targaryen from their mother side, it is all that matters), he surely cares about his heir's standing, which would be seriously eroded.

In short, I feel the show tried to have their cake and eat it: they wanted to lay the bastardy in the open while at the same time giving us more reasons to hate Alicent without handicapping too much Rhaenyra. It does not work, at least for me. 

 

I agree.

The Velaryons' bastardy is way too obvious. Not only does literally every single character talk about it at length, every single character talks about how obvious it is. Which is crazy because if it was really this obvious, it would be a massive problem. Not necessarily to the point of Rhaenyra being disinherited (although that should've been put on the table, however briefly) but there should've been major social consequences for both Rhaenyra and Laenor. Rhaenyra would've been handicapped yes.

Laenor in particular what with him being gay (with a thing for boys and younger men as it is implied), feckless and immature and a cuckold. It would've made him an absolute laughingstock; his knighthood and combat experience (although very legitimate) should have been called into question as his manhood should've been. There would be constant insults and fights...which, dare I say, would've naturally led up to his murder or serious injury. If it really was that obvious, then Viserys, Corlys and Rhaenys would've unleashed their anger on him because ultimately he's the one who is refusing to impregnate Rhaenyra for one reason or another.

 

What makes it worst is the casting of the Targaryen girls. They are simply too dark to be Laena's kids and that was deliberately done to make the Velaryon boys look illegitimate. There should be a lot more racial ambiguity with these kids.

 

This could've been avoided and portrayed more artfully if they had made the people of House Strong brown or black. Like @Lord Varys correctly foresaw a year ago.

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9 minutes ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

It's pretty simple- Viserys REFUSES to believe it. He heard the rumors, but buried his head in the sand.

I think he knows the truth but choses not to acknowledge it.  Rhaenyra is the person he loves the most. So he will protect her. 

And the reason why Alicent is so angry/jealous is because he will always chose Rhaenyra over her or her children. Just like when he refuses to punish someone for maiming her child but at the same time threatens everyone to remove his/her tongue for speaking the truth about the childrens' parentage.

Edited by Tijgy
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11 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

This could've been avoided and portrayed more artfully if they had made the people of House Strong brown or black. Like @Lord Varys correctly foresaw a year ago.

Well, my take on the issue was to have the Velaryons as they are, Valyrian folk with pale skin, while either the Hightowers and/or the Strongs are black, darker-skinned, or other people of color if the show wanted to do that.

Not sure it is that obvious with Rhaenyra's son. I mean, Laenor is pretty light-skinned so any children of his fathered on Rhaenyra could all be white or 'white passing' easily enough. And the show kind of never mentions the Velaryons being black - like it the books it is all about the hair color (the eyes they fucked-up, cut) and kind of the noses. It isn't skin color at all.

The only way I can think of that the parentage of the children could have been more obscure is if they had cast an actor for Harwin Strong who did not actually closely resemble the boys. Because that's a show change. In the books we have no Harwn description, and the reason Alicent takes issue with the boys is that they look 'common' (i.e. non-Valyrian) and she takes this as 'evidence' that their Valyrian-looking legal father, Laenor Velaryon, couldn't have fathered them.

But she doesn't say: 'Look at Harwin Strong! He has exactly the same hair, the same eyes, and the same nose as Rhaenyra's sons.'

The only Strong that's described is Harwin's great-granduncle or great-great-granduncle, Lucamore Strong, and he was a blond giant.

If they had gone with that in the show we could have had talk about Rhaenyra having sex with both Laenor and Harwin and it being totally in the air who the biological father was because they didn't really look like either of those men.

I guess this may have been the better take since it could have better explained why Rhaenyra had three sons with Harwin. If he didn't look the way their children ended up looking she wouldn't have expected them to look the way they did.

The talk this episode also helped to established why this happened because it seems clear now Rhaenyra had the sense to only sleep with Harwin after she already had had sex with Laenor, so the children could have always been Laenor's. They just never were, apparently.

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1 hour ago, Lady Anna said:

Right and he himself became Lord of Harrenhal. In that sense, I can see why he killed Harwin too. But otoh, and since the episode revolved around the children's parentage, it seems weird that Larys, who's on Alicent's side so far, would have killed Harwin who could confess to being the father of Rhaenyra's children. In any case I don't think this will be relevant again on the show.

I mean he never was going to confess to it. It also removes Rhaenyra's closest friend and companion.

 

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15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

George's asshole characters are mostly sympathetic because we have their POVs.

That's the thing. GRRM has the POV of all characters in his head, something we as readers don't have, which is why the way he talks about them doesn't always match what we see in the text.

Edit: I'm talking about F&B, obviously.

Edited by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy
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40 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

I agree.

The Velaryons' bastardy is way too obvious. Not only does literally every single character talk about it at length, every single character talks about how obvious it is. Which is crazy because if it was really this obvious, it would be a massive problem. Not necessarily to the point of Rhaenyra being disinherited (although that should've been put on the table, however briefly) but there should've been major social consequences for both Rhaenyra and Laenor. Rhaenyra would've been handicapped yes.

As long as the king is alive and refuses to entertain such rumours, what could realistically happen? Rhaenyra has enough backers and players who need her name to flip over bastardy. 

To be fair she already has faced backlash. Albeit not outright due to her status and position but major houses are/have aligned against or and/or with the hightowers. House Strong has been reduced to a scheming clubfooted lickspittle for Queen Alicent and Rhaenyra has shown how adept she is at shortsighted politics (her quips to Lady Redwyne in the Kingswood and various Westerosi lords in Storm's End on her tour, etc). Despite her near intouchable status as the handpicked heir and favourite of the King, she has dug herself in quite a hole and will continue to do so. 

Edited by MisbornHeir
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That's actually something that bugs me. They're not bastards.

The king has said so.

It's over.

Anyone who claims otherwise needs to have their head on a pike, queen or no queen.

The idea they're bastards is also ridiculous. Where are they getting the idea other than vile rumor?

Again, the traitor queen.

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5 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

That's actually something that bugs me. They're not bastards.

The king has said so.

It's over.

Anyone who claims otherwise needs to have their head on a pike, queen or no queen.

The idea they're bastards is also ridiculous. Where are they getting the idea other than vile rumor?

Again, the traitor queen.

To add to this, recall how devastating the accusation was in A game of thrones. Ned knew how dangerous it would be.

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13 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

That's the thing. GRRM has the POV of all characters in his head, something we as readers don't have, which is why the way he talks about them doesn't always match what we see in the text.

Edit: I'm talking about F&B, obviously.

No, George would only have those POVs in his head if he were writing them. He is not a guy who has lots and lots of unwritten chapters just in his head, or else all he needed to do to finish a book was to hire a secretary he could dictate to.

The character of, say, Jaime changed considerably when he got his own voice.

And I'm also not buying that characters from FaB are 'more complex' than the history book did portray them. It is the only work about them, so it is definitive take.

It would be different if he were working proper novels about them, but he won't, so we only have them as historical figures, not proper characters.

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36 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

That's actually something that bugs me. They're not bastards.

The king has said so.

It's over.

Anyone who claims otherwise needs to have their head on a pike, queen or no queen.

The idea they're bastards is also ridiculous. Where are they getting the idea other than vile rumor?

Again, the traitor queen.

And fire is the champion of House Targaryen...

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50 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

No, George would only have those POVs in his head if he were writing them. He is not a guy who has lots and lots of unwritten chapters just in his head, or else all he needed to do to finish a book was to hire a secretary he could dictate to.

The character of, say, Jaime changed considerably when he got his own voice.

And I'm also not buying that characters from FaB are 'more complex' than the history book did portray them. It is the only work about them, so it is definitive take.

It would be different if he were working proper novels about them, but he won't, so we only have them as historical figures, not proper characters.

To be fair, this can be applied to some of the mysteries in F&B. GRRM clearly knows the answers to them, but we the readers probably never will. Like the note Aegon the Conqueror got from Dorne, that ended the war. We'll never know what it means, why it angered Aegon so much and why it caused him to end his war, but GRRM does. We can debate on it for the rest of our lives, but non of us will ever know if we're right or wrong.

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36 minutes ago, sifth said:

To be fair, this can be applied to some of the mysteries in F&B. GRRM clearly knows the answers to them, but we the readers probably never will. Like the note Aegon the Conqueror got from Dorne, that ended the war. We'll never know what it means, why it angered Aegon so much and why it caused him to end his war, but GRRM does. We can debate on it for the rest of our lives, but non of us will ever know if we're right or wrong.

George might *know* about the things he cares to know. Others he might have invented as mysteries without pinning down what *the truth* is. Nymor's letter could very well be something like that.

The things that matter in relation to the main series (why did Aegon the Conqueror invade Westeros?) he knows most definitely.

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Can anyone confirm if The Doctrine of Exceptionalism covered polygamy? I always thought it prohibited incest for everyone except the Targaryens, but it never touched on polygamy. I ask this because to me it looks like Daemon and Rhaenyra's marriage is legal since they married in a Valyrian ceremony and the Faith of the Seven has no standing to invalidate it. Unless the DoE specifically prohibits polygamy. 

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Such a great name for a rule about being allowed to marry your sister. 

The Iron Islands do have their Saltwives, but I would think if the faith was the only obstacle we'd hear about some northern examples. But we only see them above the wall.

That and all the Targaryen princes who ask about taking multiple wives and are denied leads me to suspect that when unifying and codifying the laws Jaehaerys sided with the kingdoms that considered it illegal. 

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